I'll watch again this week but I doubt that'll change. Also, more spreadsheet updates soon; the gist is that 6IT comes even with IT BS OB OB but only if you work in IT BS OB IT IT halves.
I'm assuming that is with 4pT7 and Sigil of Awareness vs. 4pT7 and IT Sigil? If so then that has interesting implications. Considering the IT sigil is far easier to get, and the 4pT7 favors the double OB rotation, then Id assume that at lower gear levels 6IT is superior.
Killing Machine in its whole is a bit of an odd PPM mechanic since its one of the few that only procs of white hits.
I guess then, all in all, that haste is infinitesimally better than we think, if it increases KM procs and nothing else but white damage. Still crappy, though.
On another matter, regarding the two alternative rotations (2xOB, repeat, or 2 OB, 3 IT... 3 IT), I'd like to know if those with 4t7, doing 3 FSs per half cycle, find that they're delaying their runes, even while weaving the FSs.
I'm asking because I'm using now that first (2xOb)x2 rotation, and without 4t7 bonus i find myself alternating 2 and 3 FSs per half cycle, and barely keeping up with rune refresh. I guess that FS is more DPS than the total anyway, and then probably it's worth delaying it to cast more of them.
I guess then, all in all, that haste is infinitesimally better than we think, if it increases KM procs and nothing else but white damage. Still crappy, though.
On another matter, regarding the two alternative rotations (2xOB, repeat, or 2 OB, 3 IT... 3 IT), I'd like to know if those with 4t7, doing 3 FSs per half cycle, find that they're delaying their runes, even while weaving the FSs.
I'm asking because I'm using now that first (2xOb)x2 rotation, and without 4t7 bonus i find myself alternating 2 and 3 FSs per half cycle, and barely keeping up with rune refresh. I guess that FS is more DPS than the total anyway, and then probably it's worth delaying it to cast more of them.
Thanks
On those rotations that you do 2xFS, don't you find yourself with 1 free GCD?
I found out that the highest DPS for me, is to use Rime/FS until Frost Fever wears out. (which usually happens after the 8th skill in each cycle)
On those rotations that you do 2xFS, don't you find yourself with 1 free GCD?
I found out that the highest DPS for me, is to use Rime/FS until Frost Fever wears out. (which usually happens after the 8th skill in each cycle)
You should only rarely be hitting 8 abilities with that rotation on occasion. If your consistently hitting 8 abilities, then I bet you should switch to UP. Reason being is that UP would shorten you to 10 seconds from 12, which will net you 20% more rotations over time, overcoming the 15% damage bonus of blood. But if you are hitting 8 gcd's less then 2/3 the time, Blood will give more dps.
And to the poster you were responding to, 1 FS or 1 HB is greater damage then the average of 2 OBs, 1 IT and 1 BS, so its worth delaying your run cycle to get it in.
The rotations between 7 and 8 are roughly 50%-50%.
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx3 is regular (50%)
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx3>HB when RIME proccs (15%)
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx4 when available RP (roughly 35%)
No, UP is a dps decrease of about 10%. I end up with 1 ~ 2 "Free" seconds each rune rotation.
I'm assuming that is with 4pT7 and Sigil of Awareness vs. 4pT7 and IT Sigil? If so then that has interesting implications. Considering the IT sigil is far easier to get, and the 4pT7 favors the double OB rotation, then Id assume that at lower gear levels 6IT is superior.
Neither included a sigil, actually. It should come out to a very similar result with sigils equipped though, simply because the Icy Touch sigil is 200-some damage on 6 Icy Touches and the Obliterate Sigil is 400-some damage on 4 Obliterates.
And yes, gear should push a strike-heavy rotation above a cast-heavy rotation but I haven't looked into that yet. I also forgot to update the spreadsheet and I don't have a copy of it with me at the moment so I'll toss the update up on Monday, most likely.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
The rotations between 7 and 8 are roughly 50%-50%.
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx3 is regular (50%)
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx3>HB when RIME proccs (15%)
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx4 when available RP (roughly 35%)
No, UP is a dps decrease of about 10%. I end up with 1 ~ 2 "Free" seconds each rune rotation.
I always find using 8 GCDs in BP to be somewhat tricky. It only works if you're latency is really really low, and if you're not prone to make mistakes.
I'm not saying that UP is better, I am however saying that UP might be more comfortable to work with for a lot of people.
Just to give a very very rough sketch.
Lets say OB does 5k dmg non crit, IT 4k, BS 1k and FS 5k as well. Lets say you miss out on 1 FS using BP over UP due to latency. And assume 50% crit. I just want to make a very very abstract comparison to show the impact the comfortability of UP can have over 7+ GCD rotations.
Now you lose 1 FS: 5k dmg * 1.5 = 7500 dmg. To gain 15% extra damage: 0.15 * 36000 = 5400 damage.
------
Now this calculations is by no means on the spot, or nice. It's abstract napkin math.
However it does show how big an impact such a thing can have.
I personally used UP on my last raid. However that was due to it being my first day as 21/50 spec, so i might as well facerolled the keyboard so little did i "feel" the rotation at the start. (Although i rolled into it nicely at the end).
I know of myself i can with low latency do the rotation in BP, and more power to those that can. However I know that some people latency wise or "mentally" can not handle it. And i think that certainly for a 7+ GCD rotation like this Unholy Presence isn't as bad.
I mean I come from an unholy 2H spec (which i'll probably return to), where using UP is simply stupid, since you have at worst 7 GCDs in a row, and 4 at best.
However with a rotation which has 7 GCDs at best and 8 GCDs in a "worst case scenario" (in context :P), I can very clearly understand the need for UP.
And yes, gear should push a strike-heavy rotation above a cast-heavy rotation but I haven't looked into that yet. I also forgot to update the spreadsheet and I don't have a copy of it with me at the moment so I'll toss the update up on Monday, most likely.
I think this is definitely something that I wouldn't assume. The comparison is OB vs. 2 ITs, .625 FSs, and .3 HBs. The OB will obviously scale much better from weapons, but the IT6 rotation should scale better with AP and crit (since crit is multiplicitave, and OB has such a high built in crit rate)
Not that I think its wise to speculate on rotations post-Nax. New set bonuses and Sigils will probably have a large say in what rotations are used..
Originally Posted by Xipiu
The rotations between 7 and 8 are roughly 50%-50%.
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx3 is regular (50%)
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx3>HB when RIME proccs (15%)
OB>OB>IT>BS>FSx4 when available RP (roughly 35%)
No, UP is a dps decrease of about 10%. I end up with 1 ~ 2 "Free" seconds each rune rotation.
OBx2+IT+BS generates 95 RP/10. With Butchery thats 99 RP/10. Even with HB, your looking at most 4 extra RP/10, so unless im missing a rather large source of RP your going to be doing 4xFS a lot less then 35% of the time.
That said, using 7 GCDs in blood presence requires 10.5 seconds vs. 10 seconds in UP. BP does 115% damage, while UP would get 105% number of rotations. 1.05/1.15=~91%. So even if you have 0 latency and execute a perfect 7GCD rotation in blood, you shouldnt see a full 10& decrease.
Unless something else is going on, my guess is that your UP/BP competitive testing either was skewed by the RNG.
This is paper napkin math though, so i could be mistaken.
Certainly that 35% was over the board. thus making BP even more worth it.
edit: If i'm doing 8GCD every rotation, it means i'm spending 12s on it, while i could do in UP in 8s.
If i'm doing 7 GCD in UP, it means i'm sitting for full 3 seconds doing nothing.
So yeah. you're totally right, and BP is even better given the odds of using 8 GCD (roughly 30% total)
Certainly that 35% was over the board. thus making BP even more worth it.
edit: If i'm doing 8GCD every rotation, it means i'm spending 12s on it, while i could do in UP in 8s.
If i'm doing 7 GCD in UP, it means i'm sitting for full 3 seconds doing nothing.
So yeah. you're totally right, and BP is even better given the odds of using 8 GCD (roughly 30% total)
You take in account 0 ms latency. There are few people who really roll with that kind of latency.
If you have 300 ms, which is a pretty decent latency these days you're already delaying your whole 12 second rotation by ~ 2 seconds simply due to reaction time.
Neither me nor Odii is saying that UP is better, I'm still fully convinced though that it is more friendly to handle.
Also I have been thinking about this. But the reason we allow 8 GCD is because we rely on rune cushioning to help us out.
But I dont think that the rune cushioning is made for that reason. Let me explain.
I think the cushioning is made to react to certain situations without losing dps.
Those situations include capping RP, for example in an Unholy rotation of SS>SS>SS you might get to 80 RP after the 2nd SS and you want to put a DC in before the next SS, due to the rune cushioning the next rune cycle you can just do SS>SS>SS again because the last 2 runes refreshed faster
Those situations also include having to redo an attack due to a dodge / miss.
However i do not think we are taking advantage of them if we do it twice in a row.
Let me explain.
If you use a 12 second rotation your runes with refresh in 8 seconds instead of 10 seconds because of the rune cushioning. So far so good.
However the 2nd rotation you can not benefit from that reduced time because once again your rotation is 12 seconds. So instead of having your runes "on hold" for 2 seconds, they are now on hold for 4 seconds!
That means you still lose 2 seconds of DPS time every rotation. Now we know that this is worth it because your rune dumps are worth more DPS than your runes, however it is a disadvantage.
You take in account 0 ms latency. There are few people who really roll with that kind of latency.
If you have 300 ms, which is a pretty decent latency these days you're already delaying your whole 12 second rotation by ~ 2 seconds simply due to reaction time.
Neither me nor Odii is saying that UP is better, I'm still fully convinced though that it is more friendly to handle.
Actually, what Im saying is for double OB, you want to use blood presence. But if your not able to keep the rotation at 11.5 seconds or less on average, you need to switch to UP. Since Double OB natuarally takes you fairly close to the 11.5 second line on its own, UP vs. BP will probably have to be made on a case by case basis by individual players.
For AE fights you should always be in blood presence, because the AE rotations are pretty short.
There's a wws from our today's naxx, I had 21/50 frost. First time as frost (it was a bit rushed, just respecced last night) and I didn't have much idea about rotations, but it seemed to fare pretty well against similarly geared & skilled 17/0/54 undead DK.
I used BS to convert to death runes, spammed OB with rest of the runes and dumped all RP with FS.
....
Which gives us 3722dps
or 5583 per global cooldown
as expected, FS is 6895 per global cooldown. So indeed, worth delaying your rotation by 1 GCD.
Also, if you do have RIME procc, you do want to use that, because HB damage is higher than FS
You can't really go much further than 8gcd, because the disease would fall, and the FS damage would go down.
If FS is 6895 per global cooldown, losing the 10% bonus from not having FF up would put it at ~6268 dps per gcd, which is still higher than the rotation's average. So I think that it would still be worth clearing all your RP before starting on the next set of runes; however any Rime procs should definitely be used before FF expires as HB suffers a lot more if FF is not up.
Actually scratch that, there is one downside of reapplying IT after FF has already worn off - the IT and subsequent FF ticks will not gain the Tundra Stalker benefit, so more calculations need to be done.
Last edited by Embar : 02/01/09 at 6:45 PM.
On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James Nicoll
I been watching this post for about the last 4 months, and I am currently specced 20/51 frost, I have 4/t7 and OB glyph. I am currently using Titainsteel Destroyer, unbuffed on a target dummy my avg OB crit is 5069 55% crit in 25 Naxx avg crit is 7k. looking at the raid stats in this post , it seems my OB is coming up a little short. I have started stacking STR every where I can, Where str is not possible I will take AP. Other than waiting for armageddon or Jawbone to drop. is there any thing else I can do to get more out of my OB
Guys just a question. We're running a lot of 10-mans without enh shaman and a pretty melee heavy group with 2 death knights. Now I personally often spec Unholy, and my mate specs either blood or frost.
Now i was wondering, i came across this spec on the official boards. Its probably not such a good spec for 25 mans. However it does include Abominations Might.
The spec is this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Just wondering because if my mate can spec that way, it would be a nice buff to the other physical dps (hunter / warrior / retri / me / tanks)
You're trading 10% damage for +1% strength (4% - UA), 1 expertise and +10% AP. Probably quite the personal dps loss, however in the bigger picture I'm wondering if its worth the trouble.
Last edited by Foxx2405 : 02/01/09 at 5:59 PM.
Reason: Added last paragraph
Question here, noted from numerous tests in 5/10 mans and dummys:
What is the reason behind using OB instead of HB in rotations on single targets? I understand HB on AoE pulls is superior because spreading IT -> HB is 5k+ damage on all targets (with my gear level, which is pitiful ATM). But I've noticed on single targets, where I IT -> PS, then go into a dps rotation (HB with BSs for death runes) I actually do more DPS than with IT -> PS -> OB. For simplification sake, I'm omitting BSs from my rotation, those are standard placement.
Is the reason for using OB instead of HB just based on the KM procs being spent better on FS? Or is it because my weapon damage (Runeblade of Demonstrable Power - Knights Revered Weapon) is low enough that the weapon damage portion from OB is very low?
The spec I'm using includes all the necessary DPS talents in my view, which includes Black Ice for more frost damage, Glacier Rot, etc.
Any help for a new Death Knight would be greatly appreciated.
Question here, noted from numerous tests in 5/10 mans and dummys:
Any help for a new Death Knight would be greatly appreciated.
Basically for frost dk's, YMMV, there's too many variables in weapon damage, and gearsetups for an absolute rotation at this time, but you need to remember that while HB may hit harder, Oblit has an absurdly high crit rate so you need to figure out the /average/ damage of your oblit and HB before figuring out which is better (for most it will be oblit)
The best rotation I've come up with so far is more alternating - IT,BS,FS,OBlit,FS,FS,IT,IT,FS | BS,IT,FS,IT,IT,FS,Oblit,FS,(HB/FS). The starting rotation is BS,(Rune Tap),IT,BS,FS,OB,-,-,OB,-,FS.
I've really tried to work with that rotation, but to be honest i can hardly manage to do that on a dummy, i see no way to hold onto that rotation in a real bossfight with precise movement an reacting on other things happening then just starring on my runebar.
I think one of the things that make a specc viable and really competative is a rotation that leaves space for other things then just highly concentrate on your ressources and the right time to push the right button. I dont think this rotation will fullfill that.
For the "simple" way just doing something like OB - OB - BS - BS dmp | ITx6 - dmp i dont see the predicted dmg, i don't even come close the numbers i do with my IT- BS - FS - OB - FS - OB - FS. everything tested just on the dummies so far.
Does anyone have a third option? something in between those two?
Question here, noted from numerous tests in 5/10 mans and dummys:
What is the reason behind using OB instead of HB in rotations on single targets? I understand HB on AoE pulls is superior because spreading IT -> HB is 5k+ damage on all targets (with my gear level, which is pitiful ATM). But I've noticed on single targets, where I IT -> PS, then go into a dps rotation (HB with BSs for death runes) I actually do more DPS than with IT -> PS -> OB. For simplification sake, I'm omitting BSs from my rotation, those are standard placement.
Is the reason for using OB instead of HB just based on the KM procs being spent better on FS? Or is it because my weapon damage (Runeblade of Demonstrable Power - Knights Revered Weapon) is low enough that the weapon damage portion from OB is very low?
The spec I'm using includes all the necessary DPS talents in my view, which includes Black Ice for more frost damage, Glacier Rot, etc.
Any help for a new Death Knight would be greatly appreciated.
Generally speaking, Obliterate has a higher expected damage value than howling blast. You'll probably see a bigger advantage there with more weapon damage, but I'm in a similar situation (wielding a titansteel destroyer), and my oblits do considerably more damage than HBs. The key thing when comparing is to remember that the raid boss dummy has a fair amount of armor, and you'll be seeing that armor get debuffed a lot in raids.
It's also annoying to run into the cooldown on HB.
Finally, most people don't use PS in their DPS rotations. The two "standard" rotations either use double oblits or sextuple ITs, and omit using PS entirely. The disease scaling on oblit/blood strike isn't worth chasing after if you can just use more oblits. BS->IT->OB->OB works just fine if you start with blood tap and have blood of the north to keep you in death runes. The 6xIT rotation might work better for you, especially since you can get the IT sigil pretty easily. Then you go with death rune mastery and use Oblits to generate death runes which you turn into lots and lots of ITs. IT hits really hard when you've got all the talents for it.
Guys just a question. We're running a lot of 10-mans without enh shaman and a pretty melee heavy group with 2 death knights. Now I personally often spec Unholy, and my mate specs either blood or frost.
Now i was wondering, i came across this spec on the official boards. Its probably not such a good spec for 25 mans. However it does include Abominations Might.
The spec is this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Just wondering because if my mate can spec that way, it would be a nice buff to the other physical dps (hunter / warrior / retri / me / tanks)
You're trading 10% damage for +1% strength (4% - UA), 1 expertise and +10% AP. Probably quite the personal dps loss, however in the bigger picture I'm wondering if its worth the trouble.
I ran a similar spec (trade a point in improved rune tap and mark of blood for two points in bloody strikes) about a week or so in 25 mans (due to lack of enhancement shaman), and if you're otherwise without an unleashed rage buffer, it's absolutely both a personal DPS and raid DPS increase. The spec itself is likely marginally less personal DPS than a build with tundra stalker, but since the onle reason to run it is to get you UR, it's definitely better.
I actually re-specced to the build that Bloody_Sorcerer is referring to for a 10-man pug because we had an unusually large amount of physical PDS. Compared to when I used to run 21/50 Recount indicated that I lost about 300dps, but I wasn't too concerned as I'm sure the increased raid DPS compensated. I should also mention that I maintained the exact same rotation as when I was 21/50 - not sure if any other rotation would better serve this build.
In short it is definitely a viable spec, assuming you have a fair number of P.DPS in the raid. For this reason I would actually believe that the spec is better suited for a 25-man raid than any other, as you are just more likely to provide the benefit to more people.
Last edited by Solithaira : 02/02/09 at 1:47 PM.
Reason: Spelling
@Bigwang
For your equipment, you should either just stick to 2H Unholy or use the (IT BS OB OB) rotation (or any variations). You have a BoH, no reason to mess around with the 6x IT rotation.
On a side note... why do you have +32 AP gems instead of +16 Str? And you should probably get the meta gem that's +3% critical dmg and +21 crit rating.
@Bigwang
For your equipment, you should either just stick to 2H Unholy or use the (IT BS OB OB) rotation (or any variations). You have a BoH, no reason to mess around with the 6x IT rotation.
On a side note... why do you have +32 AP gems instead of +16 Str? And you should probably get the meta gem that's +3% critical dmg and +21 crit rating.
There's a solid chance that 32 AP is cheaper than 16 Str--by a decent amount--making it more of a choice between 32 AP and, say, 12/14 Str.
In other news, I'm updating the google docs sheet now so UH Pres should be good to go (as usual, refer to the notes on the welcome page for changes/brokens/caveats.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
01/31/09, 12:37 AM
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