@Bigwang
For your equipment, you should either just stick to 2H Unholy or use the (IT BS OB OB) rotation (or any variations). You have a BoH, no reason to mess around with the 6x IT rotation.
On a side note... why do you have +32 AP gems instead of +16 Str? And you should probably get the meta gem that's +3% critical dmg and +21 crit rating.
I just recently picked up the Sigil of Awareness. I suppose I hyped it up a bit too much in my head because I really expected some earthshattering changes in my DPS. Sadly I find myself seeing Frost Strike and Howling Blast hit for as much if not more than Obliterate. Maybe I'm just unlucky with the RNGs, but with so much RP at my disposal, I don't see how Obliterate can keep pace. Granted my 2 hander is really best suited for tanking, but it's not that much of a dog in the grand scheme of things. My DPS is up, but more so from Frost Stike and Howling Blast I would have to say. That came from the reduced RP of Frost Strike and the increased RP generation from Obliterate and Horn of Winter. I'm guessing once I have the 4pc set bonus, this gap will really begin to widen more. So is Obliterate just a heavy hitting Frost Strike feeder now? Seems odd that my RP dump is outperforming my main strike when it should be the other way around.
If you have buffed up your OBL as much as possible except the blood plague from plague strike, you will find that OBL has a lot higher Crit chance therefore doing more average damage than Howling blast or Frost strike...assuming your talented and have a nice weapon... OBL is the kind of move taht scales immensely gear wise and weapon wise. Also that many group or raid buffs/debuff will help OBL alot more than HB or FS
I got maybe 67,5% crit on my last 25man voa run with Obliterate. Frost Strike was 51,5%. It just somehow feels nicer to save the extra crits from Killing Machine for Frost Strike, because Obliterate crits for more than enough as it is.
I also may be slightly biased because of 2piece & 4piece T7 set bonuses :-) Now if I just had the stupid sigil drop too some day.
I ran a similar spec (trade a point in improved rune tap and mark of blood for two points in bloody strikes) about a week or so in 25 mans (due to lack of enhancement shaman), and if you're otherwise without an unleashed rage buffer, it's absolutely both a personal DPS and raid DPS increase. The spec itself is likely marginally less personal DPS than a build with tundra stalker, but since the onle reason to run it is to get you UR, it's definitely better.
Ah yea was considering that. Kinda missed that.
Ill let my mate know and we'll give the spec a shot. Should be a nice dps boost.
i am new to the frost dps builds and it seems that the first post is not beeing keept up to date, also reading 40 pages and filtering the most impotant information for people who have no overview is very hard, so please bear with me!
I have two very simple questions.
1. Is this the new most prevered frost dps 21/50 build everyone is talking about?: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
2. What would be the most prevered rotation to use with this build?
This is the ITx6 rotation (some people were saying it is better, though my personal preference still lies in the old one).
The rotation is as follows:
OB>OB>BS>BS
ITx6 (throw FS at the end, when KM proccs and when RP > 80)
1. The "typical" spec doesn't have DRM and instead takes Rune Tap and 2 pts of ImpRT.
2. The "typical" rotation with this spec is IT OB BS OB Dump (with man variations thereof).
This is the ITx6 rotation (some people were saying it is better, though my personal preference still lies in the old one).
The rotation is as follows:
OB>OB>BS>BS
ITx6 (throw FS at the end, when KM proccs and when RP > 80)
I'm just wondering why people do:
BS>BS>OB>OB
ITx6
Do they find the other rotation too hard ?
Or do they deliberately want to damage their dps ?
Why are people posting rotations not making use of the permanent Death Rune? That bug has been around for ever and it probably won't change for a long time seeing as the next patch will be the Ulduar patch.
A simple rotation utilizing the permanent Death Rune (probably not the most effective though) would be:
Start fight with BS>Blood Tap, you'll have 2F,2U,2D runes then
Oblit>Oblit>IT>IT>Dump
IT>IT>IT>IT>BS>IT>Dump
Of course you'll want to 'interrupt' your rotation to occasionally FS before overcapping RP, this usually won't change your rotation due to the flexible rune cooldowns though.
Personally I find it much easier and much more effective to play priority based.
Seems like there is still a lot of debate about a 6xIT rotation versus a strike rotation. I've heard a lot of people trumpeting the IT-OB-OB-BS-FS rotation as a rotation that scales better with gear, whereas the casting rotation has shown better results with lesser geared Death Knights. Is there any truth in this?
Also, I'm curious how people are using their Death Chills. I find more often than not I've started popping it for Frost Strikes as i've noticed FS both hitting AND critting for more than Obliterate, despite my gear and Sigil of Awareness O.o
(Funny, though, that I can be top DPS for Patchwerk and still be far lower DPS than most of your WWS numbers, from what I've seen. My only guess is that our fights are so long, if our collective DPS were higher and we were killing him faster, everyones' numbers including my own would be higher. Or I could be on crack...)
Last edited by Melizande : 02/04/09 at 7:53 AM.
Reason: syntax phrasing adjustment
Seems like there is still a lot of debate about a 6xIT rotation versus a strike rotation. I've heard a lot of people trumpeting the IT-OB-OB-BS-FS rotation as a rotation that scales better with gear, whereas the casting rotation has shown better results with lesser geared Death Knights. Is there any truth in this?
Also, I'm curious how people are using their Death Chills. I find more often than not I've started popping it for Frost Strikes as i've noticed FS both hitting AND critting for more than Obliterate, despite my gear and Sigil of Awareness O.o
(Funny, though, that I can be top DPS for Patchwerk and still be far lower DPS than most of your WWS numbers, from what I've seen. My only guess is that our fights are so long, if our collective DPS were higher and we were killing him faster, everyones' numbers including my own would be higher. Or I could be on crack...)
If i analyze the wws properly, tell your warriors to pull the finger out the bunghole and use sunder armor. OB sigil and rune are good, but in the end it is still a physical attack which will scale a lot from armor debufs. FS is elemental and get boosted by ebon plague.
Why are people posting rotations not making use of the permanent Death Rune? That bug has been around for ever and it probably won't change for a long time seeing as the next patch will be the Ulduar patch.
A simple rotation utilizing the permanent Death Rune (probably not the most effective though) would be:
Start fight with BS>Blood Tap, you'll have 2F,2U,2D runes then
Oblit>Oblit>IT>IT>Dump
IT>IT>IT>IT>BS>IT>Dump
Of course you'll want to 'interrupt' your rotation to occasionally FS before overcapping RP, this usually won't change your rotation due to the flexible rune cooldowns though.
Personally I find it much easier and much more effective to play priority based.
Because it's a bug and is not always reproducible; sure, it's nice to have, but if you plan on having it, and don't, you're pretty much SOL.
Plan to have BBFFUU (with appropriate death runes) and go from there; assuming anything else is like assuming perfection and/or super-optimal setup (which never happens except *usually*, but not always, for Patchwerk).
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
Do they find the other rotation too hard ?
Or do they deliberately want to damage their dps ?
Other rotation being:
IT>BS>IT>IT>OB
BS>IT>OB>IT>IT
I'd just like to say that I tried this rotation just now.
Up until now i've been using the BS BS OB OB -> IT IT IT IT IT IT rotation, and my dps would hover around 2900-3000 as seen in my older dummy tests. My dps shot straight up to 3300+ using this rotation, so I believe you're definitely right about spreading the ITs around and conserving KM procs for FS. I encourage others to start using this rotation.
Edit - This was with the dummy at over 35% hp. My previous records were done below that.
I'm also finding Razorice to be a dps increase.
At below 35% hp I hit 3,500dps without ghoul. Far higher than the old faceroll rotation. I also found counting KM procs and watching the auto swing timer to be msot helpful - if possible try to predict KM procs and use them on Frost Strike.
I have been playing around with a 44/27 build for a couple days with a rotation that I came up with when I was playing around with 10/31/30. Based on every test I've done, Icy Touch packs the biggest punch per single frost rune, Howling Blast > OB even in single target for FR/UR, yet 2x Icy Touch still puts out more damage than 1xHB w/2x Death Runes. Frost Strike is by far the best use of 40 runic power compared to DC with a 2H, but stringing 6x Icy Touch in this build or 3-4x Frost Strikes really extends the rotation too much unless you go into Unholy Presence, which I just don't like.
So the rotation I came up with for this 44/27 2H build basically is built to cut the rotation down to be executable in Blood Presence, and maximizes the rune usage for Howling Blasts, Icy Touches as well as including 2-3X Frost Strikes for an overall increase in DPS. Now, I'm not nearly as familiar with 2H Frost as I am with the standard 32/39 DW build where I've done most of my theorycrafting, but I'd love to see some thoughts on this rotation and concept in general especially if someone can help put some math behind it, because it's currently out DPSing my 32/39 dps on test dummies with what should be equal raid scaling at about 3K to 3.4K DPS per 5 minute test.
Basically what this creates is a streamlined continuous rotation that also does its best to condense the time between HB's while focusing on your most powerful attacks. You'll find that runic power regeneration matches up perfectly with the alternating 2x and 3x Frost Strike sets as well as the time between Runes refreshing. Any insight, math or thoughts on this spec would be appreciated.
Not to be rude, but simply put, I don't believe your tests. All the math i've seen on these forums has concluded that in a raid setting, Obliterate can and will hit harder than Howling Blast. This is supported by the numbers that I have seen myself in raid settings on debuffed mobs. By contrast, HB will appear to be stronger on training dummies due to the lack of debuffs.
Second, you start off (from what I can tell) with BBUUFF. Icy Touch --> HB --> Icy Touch isn't possible. Do you mean to use a Blood Tap in there to obtain an extra Death Rune?
I'd also caution you about posting an untested spec (which goes against existing tested info) and asking others to do the math for you. Doesn't tend to get received well on these boards
People need to stop posting test dummy DPS tests. They're worthless for testing raid DPS, and should only be used to work out rotations. You will not have all the raid buffs/debuffs that completely change the relative balance between abilities that is critical for determining spec viability.
Not to be rude, but simply put, I don't believe your tests. All the math i've seen on these forums has concluded that in a raid setting, Obliterate can and will hit harder than Howling Blast. This is supported by the numbers that I have seen myself in raid settings on debuffed mobs. By contrast, HB will appear to be stronger on training dummies due to the lack of debuffs.
Second, you start off (from what I can tell) with BBUUFF. Icy Touch --> HB --> Icy Touch isn't possible. Do you mean to use a Blood Tap in there to obtain an extra Death Rune?
I'd also caution you about posting an untested spec (which goes against existing tested info) and asking others to do the math for you. Doesn't tend to get received well on these boards
At high levels of gear WITH Impurity as this build has, Howling Blast does indeed hit for more than Obliterate by a small margin. That includes the ~20% higher crit rate of obliterate, and that is something that has been shown throughout many Elitist Jerks forums. It is about equal to fully specced and glyphed OB damage when specced for it, but this spec also puts out higher Frost Strike and Icy Touch damage to edge it out.
And yes, I was assuming you would start the fight with Blood Tap I just forgot to spell it out. I'm not asking for people to do all the math for me, I'm saying I haven't seen it posted, so if anybody already has thought about it shoot it my way. If not, then I'll go in and see what I can pull out with more math to back it.
Originally Posted by Stabmaster
People need to stop posting test dummy DPS tests. They're worthless for testing raid DPS, and should only be used to work out rotations. You will not have all the raid buffs/debuffs that completely change the relative balance between abilities that is critical for determining spec viability.
I understand how test dummies work, and that they are not a basis for comparing to actual raid dps. What I stated was that I have tested many many times my 32/39 DPS in raids, fully buffed and in many conditions, as well as on test dummies. My DPS in the 44/27 spec was higher on average over many tests than it was as 32/39, and seeing as how it is very similar in the abilities used, it should scale very similarly with raid buffs so it should be a valid comparison when simply estimating effectiveness.
That being said, I will hopefully be testing it out Sunday night during our H Naxx run and will have some more answers and will work on more math in the meantime. If anybody can point out any glaring issues, I've overlooked, that is what my main objective is in getting feedback.
I don't know if I misunderstood you, but i'm not questioning the viability of the 44/27 spec. I understand the higher IT and FS damage, and the other benefits of this spec.
My only challenge was regarding your claim that HB hits harder than Oblit in a raid environment. I suppose I should clarify that I'm using the word "hit" loosely here to represent average damage done by an ability based on both hit and crit damage.
Based off of Ferothas' spreadsheet (which I've found to be quite reliable) and my own testing, i've found that Obliterate will on average do more damage than HB. Plugging my current values into the spreadsheet I have Oblit doing ~5800 damage on average with HB doing ~5100.
I'm not sure what your comment about high levels of gear is supposed to mean, but if I were to plug Betrayer into the spreadsheet as opposed to my weapon I have the average damage of Oblit doing ~1100 more damage than a HB.
44/27 is viable and perhaps better than 21/50 at a certain point. I'm simply suggesting that I don't believe that HB will a) Do more damage and b) Scale better than Obliterate in a raid environment.
I have been playing around with a 44/27 build for a couple days with a rotation that I came up with when I was playing around with 10/31/30. Based on every test I've done, Icy Touch packs the biggest punch per single frost rune, Howling Blast > OB even in single target for FR/UR, yet 2x Icy Touch still puts out more damage than 1xHB w/2x Death Runes. Frost Strike is by far the best use of 40 runic power compared to DC with a 2H, but stringing 6x Icy Touch in this build or 3-4x Frost Strikes really extends the rotation too much unless you go into Unholy Presence, which I just don't like.
What's this? Someone who also thinks HB is at least as good or better than OB? HB gets buffed from spell power AND ap/str buffs. But I've come to like OB more since I now have OB glyph and sigil and tested both 23/48 and 21/50 and while yes they are good specs, 44/27 is just a much more consistent spec thanks to the ghoul. Even without NotD the ghoul is fine and there's only a handful of unfriendly ghoul fights. The key here is the ghoul being fully raid buffed, it hits damn HARD and with the glyph it has slightly more hp than me.
It's a matter of preference really, if you like the ghoul then 44/27 is the way to go without having to worry about staying competitive (because it IS), otherwise 23/48 and 21/50 are fine as well.
As far as I can tell, the reason people seem to prefer HB > OB is somewhat simple.
Reason 1: The AoE effect, why use a single target ability that hits for the same damage as an AoE ability? (assuming AoE isn't bad for the situation) This reason is primarily for Add packs, as bosses are very circumstantial.
Reason 2: It ignores armor. Completely. You have to stack more hit to make sure it always hits, but thats not too hard after a certain gear point.
Reason 3: The biggest reason. It double dips in +spell effects and Strength/AP. What does this mean? If you have a full 25 man raid, Howling Blast gains damage from both Ebon Plague/CoE, hit from boomkins/spriests, damage from strength/agi/ap bonuses from raid buffs, crit from scorch stacks, etc.
Reason 4, argueably the smallest reason: at higher haste levels, your HB GCD can be lower then OB GCD's, not enough to make a big difference, but enough to make it more fluid in a rotation.
Reason 5: Killing Machine, basically making every other or so HB a crit if timed well.
Reason 6: minor reason, freezing fog procs, if you are in unholy pres, you can use freezing fog procs to cast a HB and an OB.
Now then, reasons OB could be considered better then HB
Reason 1: Glyph of Obliterate, solid 20% damage increase there, HB has no glyph.
Reason 2: Higher crit chance, to be exact a 24% higher crit chance for Obliterate, 27% if you take annihilation, which only effects melee attacks.
Reason 3: Can generate death runes. Big thing for certain specs, not so important for others.
Reason 4: nearly same crit rate, but not attatched to Killing Machine, increasing frost strike crits. (trading 60ish% HB crit and normal FS crit for 60% OB crit and 60% FS crit -ish)
Reason 4.5: Freezing fog applies here, but for OB spam builds, you'll be trying to use all your Frost and Unholy runes on Obliterates, thus decreasing chance of Freezing Fog Procs.
Its up to you to decide, but i prefer obliterate usually, probably going to test Howling Blast in a 25 man setting with 21-50-0, gonna see how it performs with a
PS IT HB BS BS > PS IT HB IT IT rotation
although i wonder if a rotation like:
PS IT HB BS BS
PS IT HB OB
would work. Probably has some rune clipping issues and such, but could be interesting with a 2h weapon and well timed Frost Strikes.
another reason to go 44/27 is it's not picky on GEAR, not everyone has the luxury of raiding 25mans on a consistent basis, and even with the sigil, one may find it was only a marginal upgrade.
Using HB over OB for 23/48 and 21/50 would probably be a dps loss, HB without impurity is definitely worse than OB. Impurity and the ghoul/garg is what boosts 44/27 so much.
another reason to go 44/27 is it's not picky on GEAR, not everyone has the luxury of raiding 25mans on a consistent basis, and even with the sigil, one may find it was only a marginal upgrade.
Using HB over OB for 23/48 and 21/50 would probably be a dps loss, HB without impurity is definitely worse than OB. Impurity and the ghoul/garg is what boosts 44/27 so much.
Does impurity's 25% + AP coefficient make up for the loss of 10% damage and 5 expertise though? overall ghoul and garg combined with it do, but its something to think about.
Does impurity's 25% + AP coefficient make up for the loss of 10% damage and 5 expertise though? overall ghoul and garg combined with it do, but its something to think about.
What do you mean? You just said ghoul and garg do make up for the loss and you get impurity while your at it.
02/02/09, 3:42 PM
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