Frosty DPS Discussion (no magic hat required) - Page 45

Bloody_sorcerer · 02/05/09, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Khaosknight

As far as I can tell, the reason people seem to prefer HB > OB is somewhat simple.

Additionally, oblit gets 5% crit from 2t7 and +10 RP generation, which is almost a third of a frost strike more per oblit than HB.

Travaggie · 02/05/09, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by Khaosknight

Does impurity's 25% + AP coefficient make up for the loss of 10% damage and 5 expertise though? overall ghoul and garg combined with it do, but its something to think about.

A) It's not a flat 10% damage bonus as it may seem, and Impurity affects Icy Touch and Howling Blast more yes. The 5 expertise is pretty low value as well because with this rotation, virtually all your spells save blood strike are spells so it becomes less and less important overall.

B) Aside all of that, like you said, ghoul and gargoyle do add quite a bit and scale much better than bladed armor and dark conviction. You're wasting alot less talents in the Unholy Tree than you would going 21 in blood.

Samurro · 02/05/09, 6:20 AM

Yesterday i went naxx25 again and respecced to 2h frost pve build, with 6xIT (just because i dont have heigans sigil). I didn't use any potions/foods/flasks and had only 3,6k dps at the end. You can check my gear on armory. Any advices?

Tepesh · 02/05/09, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by Samurro

Any advices?

Don't use IT-Rotations when you have the most powerful twohanded weapon in the Game...

zagor · 02/05/09, 7:14 AM

Originally Posted by Samurro

Yesterday i went naxx25 again and respecced to 2h frost pve build, with 6xIT (just because i dont have heigans sigil). I didn't use any potions/foods/flasks and had only 3,6k dps at the end. You can check my gear on armory. Any advices?

With [Betrayer of Humanity] you should be using a rotation which uses the most it's big weapon damage.
I read good results here with IT-BS-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
Basically to wait for and use KM procs on FS, without wasting/refreshing KM procs.

Hidden · 02/05/09, 8:18 AM

Originally Posted by Feorthas

Because it's a bug and is not always reproducible; sure, it's nice to have, but if you plan on having it, and don't, you're pretty much SOL.

Plan to have BBFFUU (with appropriate death runes) and go from there; assuming anything else is like assuming perfection and/or super-optimal setup (which never happens except *usually*, but not always, for Patchwerk).

It's always been reproducible for me, it always bugs when you convert a Blood Rune to a Death Rune through BS and Blood Tap while it's on CD. Even in arenas I've managed to have a permanent Death Rune for ~90% of the time so it's really not the exception but more the norm if you're doing it correctly.

@Above: Sigil of Awareness makes so much more of a difference than BoH when choosing your rotation. SoA increases your Obliterate damage by 420 while the additional 20 DPS of BoH over an usual 200 DPS weapon increases Obliterate damage by a mere 82 damage.

Odii · 02/05/09, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Samurro

Yesterday i went naxx25 again and respecced to 2h frost pve build, with 6xIT (just because i dont have heigans sigil). I didn't use any potions/foods/flasks and had only 3,6k dps at the end. You can check my gear on armory. Any advices?

You need to post a WWS/WMO report or a recap breakdown SS at least. People need to know what you actually did to know if you did anything wrong.

Also, look at the many posts in the last few pages about the actual rotation to use. A common mistake is to throw 6 ITs in a row. The actual rotation to use is much more complicated.

Tepesh · 02/05/09, 6:29 PM

Finally naxx 25 without any lags or mass-dcs:

WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

21/50/0
IT BS FS OB FS OB FS - Rota
4 T7, Sigil of Awareness, Deaths Bite(Fallen Crusader)

radon · 02/05/09, 7:07 PM

Originally Posted by Tepesh

Finally naxx 25 without any lags or mass-dcs:

WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

21/50/0
IT BS FS OB FS OB FS - Rota
4 T7, Sigil of Awareness, Deaths Bite(Fallen Crusader)

Hello, could you please post your whole rotation ? And was this in blood presence (since it doesn't look like itx6) ? I'm new into 21/50, wanted to try it and i wonder if using obliterate outscales IT (for my gear).

Alsn · 02/05/09, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by radon

Hello, could you please post your whole rotation ? And was this in blood presence (since it doesn't look like itx6) ? I'm new into 21/50, wanted to try it and i wonder if using obliterate outscales IT (for my gear).

That is the entire rotation. The IT is for talent bonuses from frost fever and the BS is to make sure you have a death rune when the rotation starts up again(remember to blood tap the first time).

second 0,0 IT eats F.
second 1,5 BS eats B.
second 3,0 FS spends RP.
second 4,5 OB eats FU.
second 6,0 FS spends RP.
second 7,5 OB eats DU(since you had a death rune from previous rotation or blood tap if first rotation).
second 9,0 FS spends RP.
second 10,5 first rune refreshed 0,5 seconds ago and rotation starts over.

I'm presuming its blood presence since it only wastes 0,5 secs and with some haste the icy touch will reduce the 0,5 sec loss to less(since its a spell and its gcd benefits from haste).
IT + BS is 35 rp for first frost strike(it glyphed, 3 rp left)
1st obli is 30 rp for second frost strike(1 rp left)
2nd obli is 30 rp for third frost strike(missing 1 rp but with one point in the blood talent that gives 1 RP5 you will have generated this by now)

And I presume that's pretty much it and it sounds solid to me but I haven't tried it myself so I couldn't really say.
iiiThe only problem I see with the rotation is that the only way to utilize rime procs would be to skip a frost strike and as such rime procs don't really help you that much as far as spending your RP goes however I reckon one could just have the +30 rp talent and switch to unholy presence at some point and use empowered rune weapon in addition to an RP dump back down to 0.

Edit: Scratch my post, seems I miscalculated a bit which runes would be available after the rotation(its a death rune and not a blood rune) which means that the rotation in the grandparents post is indeed incomplete. My mistake.

Edit2: Realized that this might include have death rune mastery in blood which changes this completely from the testing i did with my current pvp spec(which does not have that talent) but I'm too tired to think about what that would mean and I haven't read the entire thread so I have no idea if it's already been analyzed at some point.

Mogurii · 02/06/09, 12:42 AM

I've just respecced to a 44/27 2h/DW build (I use it for both) and am clocking around 2.2k dps on Heroic TB dummy self buffed. I was wondering if I'm using the right rotation.

I'm currently using:

PS IT HB BS BS (FS Dump)
PS IT HB IT IT (FS Dump)

I really haven't heard much on 44/27 build in quite some time. What do you guys feel is either going for, or against this style of build?

Armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory I use Titansteel Destroyer as 2H and DW slow/fast 130.2 DPS swords (just hit 80 Sunday

)

Tepesh · 02/06/09, 1:17 AM

Originally Posted by radon

Hello, could you please post your whole rotation ? And was this in blood presence (since it doesn't look like itx6) ? I'm new into 21/50, wanted to try it and i wonder if using obliterate outscales IT (for my gear).

This is the whole Rotation. You start off with bloodtap to get 1 deathrune at the beginning and then just repeat what i have written.
No DRM is needed, actually its not even working proper with DRM since the mass of Deathrunes will screw up the rotation sooner or later.
IT is needed for Frostfever (think of Tundrastalker and the OB Bonusdmg).

Harkonnen · 02/06/09, 4:00 AM

Character: The World of Warcraft Armory my new Waist item might be not gemmed yet (8 Hit/8 Str to get over 262), as I just got it last night.
Glyphs: IT, OB, FS

Rotation: Blood Tap-IT-OB-OB-BS-RP dump in Blood Presence to start, then IT-OB-BS-OB-RP dump
Due to my gear I am using Obliterate over HB in single target situations and skipping also Rime Procs there, although in multimob situations I use HB whenever available. UA whenever Blood Tap comes up again together with sufficient RP to not get out of sync. KM procs I use immediately when it comes available.

Here now a few numbers of bosses that are quite melee friendly:
Patchwerk: Hovering at 5040 dps currently, which is 10% less than some other 2h Frost dps users are posting here. Are you getting TotT constantly or what do I have to change?
Thaddius: Around 7800 dps which seems halfway decent to me, but I have seen numbers of 8200-8300 dps in other WWS.

I am seeing this difference also on several other other encounters like Razuvious or Noth, especially when I compare myself to a DW Frost/Unholy build. The numbers between me and an equally geared diverge up to 700dps.

Here is a report from last night: Wow Web Stats. I have OT'ed on a few occasions, like Gluth, Grobbulus, Noth, etc. Boss fights where I was full dps'ing where the two stated and Loatheb. Although my ISP decided to DC me there during the fight.

So if you have ideas what I should change or adapt, please be so kind and post it here or PM me.

Thank you.

Osmosis · 02/06/09, 4:17 AM

I was wondering if anyone else has played around with Bladed Armor, Toughness, Frost Presence and Blood Presence like what I'm about to describe.

As you know, Bladed Armor checks your current armor value ~ every 30seconds (to which I would love it if someone could make a mod that tracks bladed armor checks, since I wouldn't have the foggiest on how to go about it myself), so while it isn't maintainable, you could be in Frost Presence before a pull, switch to blood to 'double dip' between the increased armour and blood presence's +15% damage. You could possibly get even more effect with Toughness, but I haven't personally checked.

Obviously, you couldn't maintain this through the fight, but could it give a bit of an edge at the onset of the fight when we are building our RP (I know it doesn't behave like a warrior's rage) and settling into our rotations? The hamstring is that you eat a rune to change presences, but if you were really desperate you could ERW.

clairecakes · 02/06/09, 4:29 AM

A few minutes of testing showed that Bladed Armor checks my armor value every 35 seconds. If you have time before the pull hit frost and wait for the check then immediately switch to blood. You should be able to go in with a little boost to your ap for approximately 30 seconds.

I certainly wouldn't suggest going for this boost while in combat, but it isn't a hassle beforehand and any little boost is always nice.

And it does work with toughness and any buff that effects your armor.

So yes, it might be a good idea to get in the habit of presence switching right before combat. Just don't go waltzing into combat with frost presence on. I happen to know from personal experience that the tank gets peeved when you pull Sarth and breath the whole raid.

Osmosis · 02/06/09, 4:38 AM

Until 3.1, you could double dip again potentially with Unbreakable armor due to its +strength and +armor. Moreso again I spose if you got its glyph.

clairecakes · 02/06/09, 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by Osmosis

Until 3.1, you could double dip again potentially with Unbreakable armor due to its +strength and +armor. Moreso again I spose if you got its glyph.

I would hope people would already be popping UA with trinkets/potions/bloodlust as 10% strength is hella nice. Yet adding in Bladed Armor makes 21/50/0 all the more attractive.

However the UA glyph? Why pass up Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Obliterate or Icy Touch for it?

EDIT: Iconoclasm whipped up the math regarding UA as a psuedo trinket here. 14k armor sees approximately 97.2 AP from Bladed Armor's effect on UA. Glyphed that shoots up to 155.6 AP.

This doesn't take into account the 10% strength which Iconoclasm also does the math for.

So the question is: Is approximately 58.2 AP worth a Major Glyph slot?

Osmosis · 02/06/09, 5:33 AM

Originally Posted by clairecakes

I would hope people would already be popping UA with trinkets/potions/bloodlust as 10% strength is hella nice. Yet adding in Bladed Armor makes 21/50/0 all the more attractive.

However the UA glyph? Why pass up Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Obliterate or Icy Touch for it?

EDIT: Iconoclasm whipped up the math regarding UA as a psuedo trinket here. 14k armor sees approximately 97.2 AP from Bladed Armor's effect on UA. Glyphed that shoots up to 155.6 AP.

This doesn't take into account the 10% strength which Iconoclasm also does the math for.

So the question is: Is approximately 58.2 AP worth a Major Glyph slot?

Personally I don't use it, I was just theorycrafting. I use the Obliterate, Icy Touch and Frost Strike glyphs. Conceivably though, if Bladed Armor truly checks every 35 seconds (and not just after an event, just so it doesn't go crazy doing something like stance dancing) then you could activate UA in time to get Frost Presence benefits as well when rolling over into Blood Presence.

In regards to your question; possibly. If you activated it every 3 minutes in tandem with your trinkets etc, then it might be nice for burst, but that probably has more benefits for a pvp spec.

Goetterdaemmerung · 02/06/09, 5:42 AM

Originally Posted by clairecakes

I would hope people would already be popping UA with trinkets/potions/bloodlust as 10% strength is hella nice. Yet adding in Bladed Armor makes 21/50/0 all the more attractive.

Doing the math with dr_AllCOM3's DPS spreadsheet, for *my gear* UA provides less gain than an additional IT (fully buffed). The only time UA can be a DPS gain is after I've suffered an interruption to my rotation (misses, or movement..) and have a handful F/D runes being squandered by idleness -- here, the GCD-ignoring quality of UA is useful. In Patchwerk circumstances, UA is never used. I use the "ITx6" rotation.

marvis · 02/06/09, 6:30 AM

Hey,
I've been thinking about 21/50 frost 2h specc with the rota:
#1.) OB | OB | BS | BS | BT+UA (makro) | FS | FS | FS
#2.) IT | OB | OB | BS | FS | FS | FS |
and repeat !

But...when do I cast HB?
In Chappas Recount there are only 2 HBs but in his Rota der isn't something about it.
Halp meh please!

Darmon · 02/06/09, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Goetterdaemmerung

I use the "ITx6" rotation.

That's curiouse with your gear. Even w/o SoA, a proper OB rotation should give better results.

Anyway, are there any actual raid parses using ITx6 rotation? I'll i found from search are dummy tests.

Mulgero · 02/06/09, 6:43 AM

Here is my "6xIT" rotation from last night 10man Naxx run, I managed to mess up rotation twice tho

4810 dps at Patchwek, army and ghoul summoned at pull, IT sigil, unholy presence
27/44/0 "shaman" spec
BT/IT/OB/BS/BS + dump
"6xIT" + dump (I'm doing frost strikes between IT's tho)
and howling blasts with rime proc

Wow Web Stats

WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

I think I really need to put OB to second part of the rotation due AP buff. If I'm reading right least in my raid set up both IT and HB are doing more damage than obliterate even with ridiculous crit rate or am I looking it wrongly? Propably getting sigil from 25man Naxx would favour OB over IT/HB..

*edited*
Seems that I need to learn count again... my OB's are doing more damage than IT. However 2xIT will give 40rp while 1xOB only 25 and frost strikes are majority of my damage. HB would do more damage than OB but since I'm not spell hit capped it will lose to OB.

Tepesh · 02/06/09, 7:00 AM

Originally Posted by marvis

Hey,
I've been thinking about 21/50 frost 2h specc with the rota:
#1.) OB | OB | BS | BS | BT+UA (makro) | FS | FS | FS
#2.) IT | OB | OB | BS | FS | FS | FS |
and repeat !

But...when do I cast HB?
In Chappas Recount there are only 2 HBs but in his Rota der isn't something about it.
Halp meh please!

Please read this thread carefully before posting "new" rotations..

Mild Confusion · 02/06/09, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by Goetterdaemmerung

Doing the math with dr_AllCOM3's DPS spreadsheet, for *my gear* UA provides less gain than an additional IT (fully buffed). The only time UA can be a DPS gain is after I've suffered an interruption to my rotation (misses, or movement..) and have a handful F/D runes being squandered by idleness -- here, the GCD-ignoring quality of UA is useful. In Patchwerk circumstances, UA is never used. I use the "ITx6" rotation.

You never use unbreakable armor with a frost rune or even a normal death rune. You typically use it at the end of a rotation where all of your runes are down especially the frost runes. You then spam a macro that looks similar to this:

/cast Blood Tap
/cast Unbreakable Armor

Blood tap will immediatly refresh a blood rune as a death rune, even if it is currently on cooldown, then you will use unbreakable armor using that death rune.

marvis · 02/06/09, 7:32 AM

Originally Posted by Tepesh

Please read this thread carefully before posting "new" rotations..

This is Chappas Rota posted in
Finding Top Raid DPS 3.08

Originally Posted by Chappa

I started fight with OB, OB, BS, BS, bloodtap+unbreakable armor-macro, FS, FS, FS. After first set I continue with IT, OB, OB, BS, FS, FS, FS. BT+UA is used every minute when its not on cooldown right after the runes are burned. I also tried to use FS after KM procced but I seemed to fail in it quite a few times.

About the question concerning why not IT-spam (assuming you mean 6 IT's in second set of runes). As far as I know its good when your gear (especially weapon) isnt that great but when having a good weapon (I have Death's Bite) +
better gear. IT, OB, OB, BS, Rdump gets better. I think there was some calculations in Frost-dps thread.

edit: but u dont answered my question: when do i cast hb?