radon

I use DKalert for rime procs and hit howling blast whenever it makes a sound. So i'd say HB when rime procs.

Ps: I think Tepesh meant HB on rime was mentioned before.

 

marvis

hb on rime procc, sounds great

thx

 

EwokChilli

On a completely different note from this ITx6 rotation, what about an OBx5 disease-less rotation. I know, there's a blood spec for it, so on and so forth. What I was figuring though, is that FS doesn't require IT to be good, OB is still hilarious even without a disease, and OB for frost spec crit much more often then in blood. Now, this would definitely only be good in a raid environment, because Glacial Rot (for most bosses) would require you to be piggy backing on some other death knight's diseases, as well as someone else's haste, AP bonus, etc.

I was thinking of a spec like
1/44/26

Ok, so I've been trying out the disease-less blood spec and frankly, it's so easy that it's a dps increase for me just because i smash 3 buttons ever and can pay more attention to the events around me (more dps also for me not being dead). So, i figure that you don't get blood gorged or bloody vengeance, kind of a big deal in dps (19% physical damage). Other then that, you get more crit with OB as frost, you can dip down to get Dirge (+5 more RP per OB for 35RP per OB), and you get a permanent ghoul and gargoyle. You would use OB, FS, Ghoul glyphs. Ok, so BcB won't be a big player, prolly only 1.5-2% of your dps, but Necrosis is pretty hot now.

I'm simply speculating ideas at this point. But I'll spec this sometime soon and let you know if I'm just crazy or not. Going to try a rotation of something like OB FS OB FS BS BS, OB FS OB FS OB FS (another FS if RP available). Would be pretty easy to do at least 1-2 FS per rotation while keeping up Gargoyle too I would think.

 

Bigwang

Just out of interest: isn't there too much dmg loss (OB) if you do only use one desease (IT) in your rotation?

 

Melizande

With the upcoming announced changes to Frost, vague as they were, has anyone been theorizing new spec options yet?

I know it's too early to really too any serious theorycrafting, but with the change to Blood of the North, there's a good chance we'll have 2 extra points to play with.

My current spec: 17/54/0

I'm just throwing ideas into the wind.

• Two extra points could mean Frost Aura, although its uses would be very situational at best, and useless if you run with a resto druid with improved mark or a paladin.
• One might also put them into Endless Winter, primarily to allow for a free on-demand pummel, though again, its uses in PvE would be limited at best.
• My last thought was to put them into Vicious Strikes, primarily to boost Death Strike's healing. Again, limited, mostly solo functionality.
• I'm sure some of the minmaxers will suggest putting the two points into 2/5 toughness, just for the miniscule AP buff from armor.

What are your thoughts?

 

Odii

I cant see how 1 OB is going to be better than 2 ITs damage, 6 FF tics, disease bonus loss to 4 OBs and on top of all that 15 RP and .3 free HBs (on average).

Disease-less blood makes some sense because they dont want to put points in frost (so a weak IT and weaker FF, and no annihilation). So skipping diseases is skipping a pair of weak applying events, and being able to not have to worry about diseases getting removed by OB. It also allows them to convert the FU runes into BB runes every other cycle, whereas FU runes used for diseases come back as FU runes.

 

crunchyblack

Sorry for the topic change but,

Now that BoTN is getting reduced to 3 points, what are you guys gonna do with your extra 2

 

Chappa

HB is casted on rime procs.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

ITx6 provides me with such larger numbers vs the trainer (I do have SoA) that I haven't yet spent a patchwerk on another spec/rotation. I put a parse in the 3.08 dps thread two weeks ago, and ITx6 gave me 5600 (5800) last week without AotD in a 20 man raid. I'm not done playing around with it.

As I said in my post, unless I'm GCD limited (which "ITx6" nominally isn't), the following provides more damage. I can redo the math I did for my situation if you do the math for yours and it points the other way.

/cast Blood Tap
/cast Icy Touch

 

Mild Confusion

My bad, I was assuming that a double oblit rotation was being run.

On a side note, neither ability uses the GCD and can be squeezed in so to speak during RP usage. Unless you save your BT cooldowns for an extra IT.

Edit: I see what you mean now. gotcha

 

Sylari

My apologies if it's already been discussed here, I didn't see a specific build, but for the ITx6 rotation, is this the sort of build you were referring to?
23/48/0

And could anyone give me some input on this? I just switched to it earlier today and I was surprised by the numbers ( rather, a variant of it with toughness and less RPM, but I found myself RP capping a lot )

 

Mulgero

As mentioned already earlier in this thread ITx6 isn't real rotation, it's more like ITx2 FS ITx2 FS ITx2 FS since you will be capping RP you need to spend some between the rune skill rotation.

Also maxing out tundra stalker instead of veteran of third war should give more damage. 4% more total damage should be better than 4% str + 1 exp.

 

Arreat

I went with Talent Calculator - 10/51/0
The rotation normally ends up being, in full
BS -> BS -> Oblit -> Oblit -> Dump -> IT2x(unless KM Proc, then FS if RP allows) -> IT2x(unless KM Proc, then FS if RP allows) -> IT2x(unless KM Proc, then FS if RP allows) -> FS Whatever is left.

Weave in Howling blast on Rime procs. Priority when KM procs is HB/ Rime > FS > IT

 

Anthilion

Im using that spec and it does seem cool ;D But i have a question, whats the apropriate rotation for this spec?

Currently im going for:

IT -> PS -> BS -> BS -> OB -> FS
IT -> PS -> OB -> OB -> FS

Could more FS be pulled off? Since i have DR Mastery seems doable.

 

Schwarzenaga

I just went back to 2h frost after trying out 32/39 DW. While it was good and fun, I just felt more at home with 2h frost and so I went to 21/50/0 - URL="http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMqM0zZG0xxGxdRhoVosx"]http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMqM0zZG0xxGxdRhoVosx[/url].

I used the OB, FS, and IT major glyphs.

What would be an appropriate rotation? Since I just respecced back to it after 3 weeks of DW or so, my rotations were a bit clunky, doing the good ol' BT before to get OBx2.

On a test dummy, what is an appropriate DPS number to have? In the picture provided, during that session, I was hitting upwards to 2550 dps self buffed. This session ran for a good duration of 1 and a half Horn of Winters.

 

Tepesh

This is not the Blizzard Forums where the same questions get answered every single day. If you want information about Dummy-DPS numbers (however useless they might be...) and rotation then read this thread!
Everything you ask has been answered several times inbetween the last 10 Pages, there are several rotations mentioned and even dozens of (rather useless) dummy-test-dps screenshots to compare with.

 

Komanc

So I've been reading this thread for long time and I have to agree that there hasn't been anything truly interesting lately unfortunately... no, posting the same questions / rotations doesn't really help.. but to contribute a bit, I'm going to share some experience / data from end content, Sart + 3drakes. Not that it would be so difficult nowadays, but it's certainly more challenging than Naxx25.

I'm using 21/50 spec from the patch (only went once back to DW to test it out and to be honest, it wasn't bad, but I don't like to depend on pet damange, especially for Malygos or Sart+3d) with the "6xIT" priority system. I've found out that priority system really works much better than set rotation and that I can get approx 10% more DPS using that in real raid situations. I'm using the UA macro bound to FS (as that always refreshes blood rune on CD). I use following usually within 20sec rotation, 3x OB, 2x BS, 4x IT, 6/7x FS and HB on Rime procs, obviusly in UP... Priority is so much better than rotation especially on Sart+3 fight as you move a lot and have to watch-out many things, so you can't focus on rotation (at least I can't).

Here's the Wowmeter report of Malygos25 and Sart+3d kills for reference: WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!. I say for reference as those fights change a lot (I didn't get disk at Malygos for long for example etc...)

You can see my exact talents on Armory as well as gear, which can only be improved by a bit now (trinket, waist, gloves). I have the JWC/BS combination as that's by far the most benefitial combination for DKs (especially JWC).

On the Boss dummy, I can shell out 3.5 - 3.6k DPS, but no, I don't have screenshots as that's not a good way how to test dmg (especially as I aim for low hit assuming all raid buffs, including Draenei in group).

One of the interesting things is that I really can't beat the UP damage with any BP rotation. I don't have Naxx25 sigil, but even using Doc's DPS spreadsheet I can't find any rotation that would beat the following (even with Naxx25 Sigil). I'm using the following rotation for test purposes:

IT -> OB -> OB -> BS -> FS -> FS -> FS -> HB
OB -> IT -> BS -> FS -> IT -> IT -> FS -> FS

I assume 1 rime in 20sec rotation, I know it's less in reality, but close, but also I use only 6x FS, when in reality it's closer to 6.5x). Also note that this rotation, doesn't lose any DPS upto 250ms latency, which is average for good WoW connection (and that I currently have)

It's a simulation of a priority system, rather then of set rotation. Number I get from spreadsheet, including all raid buffs (using my equipment) is around 4650 DPS. Priority system is following: IT > OB > BS > FS. Variables are - OB always when there's unholy rune up, IT always from death rune, unless I have >100RP 2D runes up other runes on less then 6sec CD, then I cast OB off 2D runes. BS always when B rune's up. Never lose any RP by overcapping (rather cast OB off 2D runes instead of ITx2 then cast some FSs). If Rime's up, HB > IT, obviously. I don't watch KM procs, don't have time for that, I just make sure that if possible that I spread IT / FS casts. I hope that my explanation is vaguely understandable

I'm going Naxx25 with this spec/gear tomorrow, so I'll update with Naxx25 WWS soon.

 

Melizande

My thinking is this:
Now, I've been told in another thread that it's worthless to speculate on changes when we don't know what the trees are going to look like in the patch. I disagree and I'll tell you why. Though there is a chance that the incoming changes will completely change the way we spec into Frost, there is just as much a chance that the Frost talent tree will remain exactly the same in build and talent progression (for example: switching killing machine and black ice would not affect deep frost builds at all).

So I like to get my work done early, because if the tree does in fact stay mostly intact, "worthless questions" now will suddenly become hot topic questions a month from now, and that just becomes time lost for preparation.

So working with what have currently, above are my first four ideas for how to allocate those points. The trend in these options is that none of them are really ideal for PvE. They add situational utility at best, with the exception of Toughness which adds a marginal AP boost (nothing worth raving over).

I'll throw in two more, since this is all speculation:

• Take away Lichborne (leaving 3 free points), and put them into 3/3 Acclimation, for additional relief against those nasty spellcasting bosses. For example: My raid prefers us all wearing Frost Resist gear for Sapphiron. With that talent I'd probably drop the gear completely, which turns into a significant DPS boost.
• Put all three points into Death Rune Mastery to create a sort of hybrid build between the OB/strike heavy Frost and the 6xIT frost. The purpose of this would be utility. For stationary single target DPS you can rely on your strikes, but you also have the option of setting up an IT volley against bosses where spell damage or ranged/movement friendly attacks are more effective.

Again, none of them scream *amazing* to me right now, and that may be because it's "too early to speculate", as others have said. We may end up with a frost tree that makes a lot more sense once official PTR notes go out, but I like to do my leg work early just in case. Worse case, I throw out my notes and hit the books again.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

If you do the rotation correctly, you should not be Obliting anything but U runes. Your rotation has 16 GCDs (seconds) for every 20 seconds -- even assuming you get the HB procs as you need them, you will still be autoattacking for 20% of the time.

Try this (rounding 7.6 FSs down to 7):

Open with
OB IT (FS) BS BT IT (FS) OB (FS)

IT IT IT BS IT IT
OB IT IT OB

I'm not adding FSs to the main rotation, it will be obvious in game when to insert them. This generates 245 RP, which is 7.6 FSs, and with my equipment yields 5142 dps on Doc's sheet. My gear is a bit better than yours.

edit: I'm going to edit in some more notes

1) FS hits almost as hard as OB, and much harder than IT -- it's more important to avoid capping RP than it is to spend F/Ds as ITs. However, allowing F/Ds to idle for more than 2 seconds is a DPS loss. Miss/dodges will traffic-jam the rotation, and your comfort level with treating it as a priority will judge how well you respond to misses:
1a) UA provides less DPS than another IT (and the 15/32nds more of a FS that it provides over UA), but it's off the GCD. This makes it perfect for responding to a IT miss: let's say you have two Ds cooling down, and your first IT misses. Unless you're comfortable with the 1s delay this miss causes, retry the IT and hit UA at the same time to consume both runes (you've just consumed both runes with an IT UA in the same time that a non-miss IT IT would've taken).

2) If you attempt to spend a single cool F/D on an IT and it misses, you have to wait *1.5 seconds* before it will let you retry. Hit a FS before retrying. (does not apply if you have more than one cool F/D. weird gimmick)

3) When the "real" world hits theory, a nicely distributed rotation can turn into a worst case: a wall of 4-6 F/D runes all cooling down within a second of each other, wanting to be spent as ITs. If you just faceroll through it (IT IT IT IT FS IT FS IT...), you're not fixing it; it'll happen again in 20 seconds and you perpetuate the DPS loss. You can use ERW to reset (I haven't decided on a better use of ERW yet, for patchwerk) -- more than just cooling down your runes, it also resets the 0-2 second rune CD head-start effect that causes this landmine to occur.

4) Arcane torrent is off the GCD. If you hit a dead spot in your rot/system (which you will, if you're doing it right and have had no dodge/misses recently) with 17-30 RP, you can AT+FS in a single GCD. Otherwise, HoW.

5) I open with BS BT because doing so with two cool Bs will bug the second B. The only time I've seen it un-bug without dropping combat is if I let one or both B(D)s stay cool for 5+ seconds (movement fights).

 

Exodist

I went Frost spec last night to try my DPS out in Naxx tonight (Tue).
I was Blood 51/13/7 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
But I respec'd to Frost 17/54/0 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

My Armory Profile The World of Warcraft Armory

I havent tried it in a raid setting yet. But results seemed little more promissing. On a highlord Nemises Trainer in EH. I was blowing DRW and Hysteria to hold at around 2020DPS. But with the frost build I pulled slightly ahead to 2216DPS.

I had trouble making a standard rotation work with just 2pcs of T7.10 doing:
IT PS BS BS OB FS FS
IT PS BS BS HB FS FS FS (at least 2 FS, possibly 3 at the most)

So to get enough runic power up I used the IT and FS Glyphs, 3rd Glyph is Oblit of course.

FS ended up pulling out to be 34% of my over all dmg this way, but I am still not convinced my make shift rotation is getting the best DPS out of this build.

Other Notes:
- I am over the Hit cap, really wanting to replace Spheer of Blood with Greatness Deck.
- Using Sigil of Awareness until I can get the drop off Heigen in Naxx25
- Using Titangrip Destroyer 2HD Mace until I get Deaths Bite [Death's Bite]
- Using Blood 51/13/7 I was getting 3000+ DPS off Patchwerk with ease, hoping to see how the change pulls me ahead or not.


EDIT: Will post Patchwerk results tonight.

UPDATE: We cleared out 3 wings in Naxx last night. My DPS dropped a considerble amount. On patchwerk I only got just over 2800DPS. Wich is not very good since I was getting 3000+ with less epic gear 2 weeks ago. Although imho the spec has more burst dmg up front, it seems to lag alot more on longer boss fights. I did try some of the rotations mentioned in this Thread but nothing seemed to yeild the amount of dmg I was doing as Blood 51/13/7

Now this may have alot to do with my play style. IDK I just couldnt get the spec to perform as I felt it should.

 

germanator

Exodist, you shouldnt have to do 2 BSs just to turn both blood runes into death runes...instead use Blood Tap before you start fighting. You should only have to do Blood Strike as most once, and somtimes zero times per rotation if you have 2 death runes. Also it kind of makes me naseous that in 2 rotations you only do 1 OBL. 2h frost dps is centered around OBL and Frost Strike, you have to maximize them in magnitude and frequency. Try dropping Plague Strike. Also make it a habit to get through your whole rotation and cast Icy touch while icy touch is still on the target.

I had a theory of doing just Obliterates and Blood strikes on a raid target? any thoughts or proof how good( or bad) this would be.
One more thought is that would speccing 6 or 7 in Unholy to grab (1/2 or 2/2)Epidemic, as 2h Frost dps spec, would it enable more frequencies of OBL and expand the rotation to reduce the number of Icy touches cast? Would the epidemic talent encourage the use of Plague Strike again for 2h frost dps?(I have a feeling its still no) And is it worth dropping some crit or damage out of blood or frost?

(IN Blood Pres)I had a Feeling the rotation may turn into of a devrivative of:
IT, OBL, BS, OBL , FS, OBL, RP DUMP

Nickpick or correct the rotation if needed, I'm only trying to incite some contemplation on Epidemic...(and also the Icy touch-less rotation, as I brought up beforehand)

Ill get more time to look at this after class. Since, ironically, I have to write a 1 page proposal explaining the rhetoric of video games.

 

Komanc

Thanks for your insight, it's been interesting to read. Maybe one word - I use 16 GCD rotation for testing purposes due to having avg. 250ms latency, otherwise I agree that there are better rotations (like yours around). I'll try to start with OB as I always did with IT, but I see that it messes up your runes a bit. I still like the UA macro on FS as it's really fire & forget way. I'm not the best player in the world so anything that makes my life easier is welcome. I should be getting new internet connection soon, so I hope that I'll be able to try 18GCD rotations soon as well.

One question - do you think that it's worth giving up Sart helm + T7 chest for T7 helm + Undiminished Breastplate? Sart helm is awesome not only because it's the best DPS helm around, but also because on top of that you get quite a lot of stamina (increasing survivability..).

One more question - have anyone really tried rune of Razorice in raid in this build? I haven't done the math, but on train dummy it does more dmg for me that FC rune...

 

Oxylos

I haven't bothered trying this before but trying it now for the first time today in 3.09 after reading about it and what i'm doing is:
BS, Tap (giving 2F2U2D), IT, PS, HB, IT, IT

when i do this one of the death runes refreshes as a death rune...but about 3 seconds into its cooldown it switches back into a blood rune. is this a new fix to the bug as of today's patch or am I doing it wrong?

 

Goetterdaemmerung

You're doing it wrong.

If you (ex) BS BT IT IT IT IT, you will (in 10 seconds) have DDUUFF, and ~10 seconds left on your "blood tap" buff. The second D should remain D for the entire combat if you treat it right. Sometimes (IME, always) the first D will remain D as long as the blood tap buff (which has a 20s duration) lasts, regardless of how you spend it -- then it will go back to B (even mid cooldown). If I'm aggressive about spending the first D as soon as possible, I can get two Ds out of a blood tap (in addition to the bugged second rune). I began noticing *this* only with 3.0.8.

 

EwokChilli

So, for the last 30 pages, people have accepted that frost doesn't use the standard IT PS OB BS BS rotation and instead use IT OB BS OB (some variation of) or IT OB BS IT IT (Some variation of ITx6). Then on this page, twice people say that they're trying frost and are doing IT PS OB BS BS and wonder why it's clunky. It's not like we've reworked the frost rotation to make it more open for RP dumps or anything. It's not like we've figured out rotations that weave in FS to keep from RP capping. It's not like we've mathmatically proven that PS is a lackluster ability that we have replaced with better options. Please read the thread before you post questions about the rotation. If you just want answers for what you should do, there is a thread called Simple Questions/Simple Answers.