Tepesh

Maybe these are more accurate?

 

Orothar

I think you misunderstood the way these stat values are made (or I did). They are not be compared between speccs, but only within a single specc.

It is actually the value a certain stat has compared to 1 AP within that specific specc

Since it says nothing about how AP affects each different specc (it does affect it differently), the comparative stat values also don't say anything about how the speccs relate to eachother.

 

• Zurm

This is actually correct. It's just relative weights of stats for that specific spec; NOT how much dps a certain amount of that stat offers for a spec.

Even if the specs scale differently, it won't be by a large margin. Each spec has something to make strong use of AP scaling; unholy has diseases, frost has frost strike, and blood has DRW (which has perfect scaling) and massive physical/stat modifiers.

 

EwokChilli

If you're curious about how much certain specs do with certain amounts of stats, you should use one of the Spreadsheets which are all quite amazing at this point.

 

Feorthas

Pulling from my sheet, here are ApEP for 21/50 at hitcap, ~3.1k ap (1021 str), 31.22 crit, 4.5% expertise:

edit: ok, those weren't aaaactually ApEP values, but they were close. Should be clearer now. And why the weird iLevel point value? That's as close to 10 Str/Agi and 20 AP as I could get.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

morbidjbyrd

What simulator are ull using for 2h frost?

 

Odii

That expertise number looks very high considering expertise does not benefit, Icy Touch (and therefore frost fever), Howling Blast, or Frost Strike.

 

Feorthas

It's so high because I ninjaed a change in--I added a quick counter (basically) that increases your rotation time based on your likelihood to miss (either miss-miss or dodge/parry/block-miss); thus, before cap, Expertise and Hit should be ridiculously good now, just as they are in 'real world' situations because not only do they make you hit more often, raising the average DPS of your abilities, but they affect your rotation length (which has extremely adverse effects on your DPS).

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Odii

So, let me see if I understand the implementation right. Suppose you have a rotation that is consistently (for simplicities sake) OB-OB-BS(IT)-IT(BS)-FS-FS-FS. Suppose you are 1% below the expertise cap. Your rotation is 7 GCDs long, with 3 GCDs being "missable" attacks. If you miss, you have a "dead" GCD, you basicly add 1 GCD to the rotation where the miss occurs. That would mean that in 100 runs, you would have ~3.03 misses on average (1 miss per run for each missable ability, then there is a chance you miss on the second attempt at the ability, etc, its statistically insignificant fast), adding 3.03 GCDs to execute your rotation 100 times. In total, thats 700 GCDs with 0 misses, so that should result in 700/703.03=99.57%. That's the same DPS loss if we continued our DPS just treating that as a "miss" and continuing the rotation.

Im just not seeing a double penalty caused by a delayed rotation. What, if anything, am I missing?

Are you double whacking abilities, where you are reducing their DPS by the missed percentage, and then adding length to the rotation? Because the correct way to do it is to add to the rotation based on GCDs, since to fully execute the rotation every ability must hit. Misses dont reduce the rotation damage, they just make it take longer.

 

Kupoe

Hmm, has anyone ever tried a spec spread like 27/44/0 ?

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator

I personally am not in a high end raiding guild, but for those who are, I would really like to see how this build would stack up against a traditional DPS build.

I was doing some napkin math, and assuming that the percentile bonuses from bloody strikes, blood of the north, and blood strike glyph are multiplicative rather than additive (the worse case scenario) you would end up with a weapon damage modifier of 107.64% on strike. 60% + 30% + 15% + 20% = 107.64%

thats not counting the disease bonus nor the base bonus to the strike. its damage would be just under a glyphed obliterate

and if they are additive... well, 60+30+15+20= 125% weapon damage, which would be outperforming a glyphed obliterate.

now factor in that your AoE move is howling blast... and the sheer utility you bring to the raid... this build could be very good. (glyphed rune tap, useful for an emergency heal in AoE damage situations?)

I would really like to hear your thoughts on this build.



*edit* i would make a new thread, but unfortunately the forums wont allow it? i need 10 posts i believe, i tend to lurk...

 

Northerner

Well, it is obviously a nice raid-perk in that AM is a great buff if no one else is bringing it.

I don't need to really go into math geek mode though to note that BS is no great thing to a frost rotation and that not having tundra is near crippling. Losing 10% of a good part of your dps plus losing the expertise? I shouldn't dismiss it out of hand but if you are indeed charged with bringing the raid buff, you'd likely be better off just going blood dps hey?

Or so I presume and in general I do hate presumption. I leave it to someone with more patience to crunch down the numbers if inclined but it seems on it's face to be a bad bet to me.

 

Orlgin

Kupoe, you used the damage for Heart Strike (which isn't in your build). Blood Strike is 50% weapon damage and not 60%. It is multiplicative so 0.5 * 1.3 * 1.2 * 1.15 = 89.7% which isn't as good as you hoped.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Tepesh

This idea has been discussed several times in this thread already (you might just take your time an read though the whole thread...).
If i am not mistaken its DPS is a little bit behind 21/50/0 IF you don't have the 10% AP Buff in your Raid otherwise. If you do have the AP Buff though Marksmen Hunters or Enhancement Shaman anyway you fall clearly behind 21/50/0.

So if you don't have Marksmen or Enhancers in you Raid you will barely notice a difference in personal DPS but bring a good buff to all other melee DPS classes, if you already have another char providing the 10% ap there is no reason to spec this way.

Anyway, you should take veteran of the third war over bloody strikes and the points in DRM are kind of wasted as well, as stated before bloodstrike is not heartstrike an the overall dmg of bloodstrike is not at all anything to built up a spec around..

 

Kupoe

hmm, thanks for the info.

so I would think this build would be an awesome 5 man, or 10 man build, but not really great for a 25 man build, as a hunter or enhance shaman would definitely be in the raid.

 

Feorthas

Yeah, it's doing some double dipping but I must represent the lost GCD somehow and decreasing damage alone wasn't cutting it.

I mean, if you have 5% chance to miss (globally), then your abilities get treated as if they do 5% less damage, but the spreadsheet doesn't really compensate for lost time or anything like that; it just says "ok, over infinite time, you just do 5% less damage because 5% of your strikes miss" without saying "oh, and your rotations take 5% more GCDs to perform too (and those could miss!)". What the change does is it forces a double dip to cover that time loss, which is the vastly more important cost when a miss is concerned, and expresses that accordingly.

What I DO need to change is how this affects non-GCD-capped rotations as it just kinda tacks the miss time (chance of miss * 1.5 right now; I don't even handle UH right at this point, but it's a trivial change) onto your rotation time and calls it a day. This SHOULD result in non-GCD-capped rotations pulling way, way ahead of GCD-Capped ones for low gear (non Hit+Exp capped) though and give us a better feel for what the 'best' rotation at a given gear level is. As soon as I get the additional time thing working smoothly, I can cut out the double dipping though; just don't want to do it quite yet (just keep in mind that Expertise/Hit doubles or triples in value when lost time comes into play, showing that the time penalty is the more severe penalty when compared to the damage penalty).

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Khaosknight

Managed to hit 3307 patchwerk dps in 10 man patch yesterday, screenshot is on my home PC, and I'm at work.

I had only just gotten t7 shoulders off of loatheb, so they are ungemed and unenchanted. Got my legs in a previous VoA run, so those are unenchanted too. I used a IT OB BS OB rotation with ghoul dropped on the pull. Fight lasted about 4 to 5 minutes so it's not one of those <2 minute fights with 6k dps.

I can't wait to see what I can do next week with an extra 200'-300ish AP from enchants and gems.

One question though, What do you guys typically do for your first rotation cycle to get things moving? I tried two seperate ones, and the second seemed to be easier, but less efficient in a min/maxxing DPS sense.

first:

IT OB BS BT OB

second:

BS BS OB OB for full death runes, then did my normal rotation and it worked fine.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

I also think you are incorrectly double-dipping in the way you are thinking about this.
In short, "you just do 5% less damage" because "your rotations take 5% more GCDs". This is a cause-effect -- those 5% numbers are *tied*, stem from the same effect, and do not need to be counted twice.

Think about it this way: if you have a near-infinite sequence of attacks, and insert a dead GCD before 5% of them, your GCD-bound sequence goes from something like:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX... A damage over B time = A/B dps

to

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX_XX_XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX_XXXXXXXXXX... A damage over B*1.05 time = A/(B*1.05)

(If your sequence is not GCD bound, then you have so-called "floating" dead GCDs which can absorb *some* misses, depending on how they fit with rune cooldowns.)

A, or the total damage of your Xs (whatever that attack is) is not reduced by 5%; you have no business reducing total damage by 5% -- instead, you should be increasing the total time taken to perform the attacks by 5% and recalculating DPS over the increased time.

There is a separate issue of how misses negatively affect individual rotations (i.e., for ITx6, which I use, misses will cause runes to clump together and increases the risk of RP capping) which is far more difficult to quantify.

 

Feorthas

Here's my train of thought:

If you have 5% aggregate miss, you will hit 95% of the time and expect to miss (1 - 0.95^NUM_STRIKES)% times during a rotation.

The 5% damage decrease is taken care of automatically--the sheet just scales the numbers down properly, accounting for the damage reduction; however, if you try to stick to your rotation (and I'll mindlessly plow through a miss if I can, with a minor tweak later on down the road--miss strings are different), you effectively lose an additional GCD to try that strike again.

It comes down to a "Retry, Abort, Fail?" type of thing where I personally favor Retry over the latter two, some favor Abort & Restart, others prefer Fail/Ignore (and continue as if the miss didn't occur)--this is just the first step toward shifting the model into "Retry" mode.

To be completely honest though, DKs just scream "WE NEED A SIM" for rotation modeling, rather than a spreadsheet; there's just a few too many interactions for a sheet to keep track of properly.

Additionally, I'll reconsider the Rotation-Length changes; as I've said before, there needs to be some additional penalty that misses should have tacked onto them and, if adding rotation time (when GCD capped) isn't a viable solution, then I'm pretty much out of options (short of stiffer, non-realistic, damage penalties).

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Odii

Well I would expect the value to jump when you add a second factor, as you are looking at multiplicative damage losses.

I think the logical thing to do is to simply remove the 5% damage loss on ablities, because your really not losing the damage of the ability, your delaying it (since the ability will be used in the same rotation, just a little later). Any damage loss is accounted for in the rotation length addition portion. Furthermore, over infinite time the damage loss of a missed bloodstrike is in fact equal to the missed damage of an obliterate. Because these 2 abilities will be used in the exact same proportion over your DPS cycle.

But in contrast DW melee is a different story that illustrates the difference. A missed MH weapon strike is a missed event. That particular strike will not occur again. To compare, if you miss 5 OH attacks in a row, your MH attacks are unnaffected. If on the otherhand you miss 5 bloodstrikes in a row, your OB, FS, IT, and HBs off rime will be delayed 5 GCDs. The loss of DPS is that of your average rotation damage in proportion to the % of the rotation that missed GCD represents of the overall length.

Or to put it this way, think of the DK rotations as a series of trains. If a one train gets delayed by a cow on the tracks, it backs up all the trains behind it. You measure the loss of time, but you dont lose the train.

Melee on the other hand is more like a series of insects crossing a highway at regular intervals. If one of them collides with your winshield, that puppy is gone. The rest though are unnaffected. In this case you just deduct the loss by car winshields from the rate at which insects attempt to cross the highway.

But your current calculations you are not only delaying all the remaining trains, your also destroying the one that had to stop for the cow.

edit(s): analogizing.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

I rethought what I put in my post and realized this is not entirely accurate. The expected number of misses is *higher*, because every miss increases NUM_STRIKES (unless you are Ignoring rather than Retrying, in which case you're changing the rotation and the calculation becomes less interesting). Perhaps the best way to calculate it: let X be the number of GCDs required to connect an attack, with a miss rate of M.

X = (M)(1 + X) + (1 - M)(1)
X = 1 / (1 - M)

If M = .05, E(X) = 1.0526 -- actually a bit worse than a 5% increase to time required!

I'd like to look at how you do this; is your latest spreadsheet in the spreadsheet thread the one you're referring to?
Are there any sims in development? I recall seeing one a while ago, adapted from a mage simulator.

 

Mulgero

I'm using 27/44/0 "shaman" (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) build myself in our 10man group since we don't lack enhance shaman. It works out pretty much same as 21/50/0 spec. Excellent build for solo/5mans and of course in raids where you don't have shaman available.


For Zurm & Co thanks for clearing up the stat scaling issue. I was in the impression that those stats would be somewhat comparable between specs. I guess I need to grab one of the spreadsheets and work with it a bit.

 

Ihmemies

I tried running in unholy stance for first time in 25man Naxx. I ran a priority system instead of strict rotation:

Spam FS
Turn unholy runes to death runes with OB
Spam IT

If I didn't screw it up I was pretty much all the time clicking something. With earlier raids and blood presence I felt like I'm leaving rune cooldowns and rune power unused, so I decided to try out unholy with same gear and talents.

I'm not saying it's absolutely better than blood presence, but it seems to work better in my case, or at least it's more fun to play that way

I wasn't at the top in dps during bosses, and at patchwerk #7 wasn't anything to rave about, but I liked the consistent damage output in all situations without any "warm-up" time, I could just go full out from the first hit I did.

Wow Web Stats

 

Tepesh

I still dont see a reason for these "just always klick something"-rotation/priority system/playstyle - call it whatever you like.

With your gear you should at least pull the same DPS if not more with a clear IT - BS - 2xOB Rotation as it has been stated here many times before.

 

Snootz86

Got the Obliterate sigil 2 weeks ago went straight to loatheb then patch/gluth/thad etc i switched my rotation from the so called 6 IT one to Obliterate one. I got records for me on stuff like loatheb/thad on patch i went with the It rotation as i wasnt 100% down with the ob one all though its not very hard. So it all looks very promising i go back to nax and tanked.. First half of the raid for me was a complete blow out due to dcs/lag, but even after dcs/lag went away i was performing terribly compared to normal. Spider wing for example i went from 1st to 7th and stayed there pretty much all the time, after hearing such great stuff about the sigil i was a bit upset.

It got me thinking, yes i had pulled great numbers the week before BUT i soon realised loatheb/Thaddius are like frost 2h dream, gluth i allways do well on due to the adds. So basically i would like to know from people who play both rotations, on faster fights should i be using the 6 it rotation? and longer/damage enchanced fights switch back?

here is my gear: The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Ihmemies

I don't get it, from where people find an extra frost rune?

I'm not good at abusing any bugs, also I don't have OB sigil nor I did better damage than now with doing ob's instead of it's, in blood presence. I was way behind the unholy dk.