EwokChilli

It isn't a bug, we use Blood Strike (from a previous rotation) or Blood Tap (before we begin) to 'prime' the rotation so that we use 1x Death and 2x Frost runes every rotation (for 2xOB and 1xIT) and use the Blood rune (1x BS) to make another Death rune for the next rotation.

Just stick with ITx6 if you don't have OB sigil or a reliable person in the raid Sundering/Exposing Armor.

 

Taizu

I've been mostly unholy to dps, and just used Frost to tank (post 3.0.8 KM is sexy).
The trick of using BT - I have been reading that for a while now but only until 2 hrs into the raid last night did I realize how important the change of rotation is for Frost (use BT to get another oblit, take out Plague Strike entirely).

Rotation on single target: IT-BS-(BT)-Oblit-Oblit

I am now torn between different frost build. As I don't have good 1hander to go DW 32/39, I am now left with 2h Frost.

semi-unholy 0/44/27 or strike heavy 17/54/0

There are 3 filler points in my 44/27 build that got dumped into NoCS. There are 4 more filler in my 17/54 build that got dumped into Deathchill and the rest (pretty self-explanatory).

Has anyone here ever tried those 2 builds? My guess is 44/27 will shine on trash pulls due to higher coefficient for HB. But on bosses, would 17/54 pull ahead? The buffs to 2h spec, Bladed armor, and subversion buffing Oblit. Can that offset the absence of ghoul and gargoyle?

 

Melizande

I've been 17/54 for a long time, but I still see people like Imta vastly outdamaging me with a 6xIT build.
For a while I know people were harping that once you have a decent weapon out of 25 man Naxx and the Sigil of Awareness, you should push toward a Strike Build, but I still see a lot of very well geared Death Knights continuing to go 6xIT.

I'm curious if that is because they do, in fact, see higher numbers still, or if it's simply a matter of playstyle preference.

 

Taizu

Since last night was my first night playing as Frost, I'll run the same spec again this week as 44/27. Next week I'll be running strike heavy 17/54 and do a ghetto-comparison. Granted, raid comp may be different between those 2 runs but at least I can give some kind of benchmark between these 2 specs.

I am mostly in 10 man gear save some t7.5 stuff. Nax hasn't been lucky.

 

Snootz86

This to im really confused which is better im best in slot pretty much apart from boh/bracers and belt for 2h im capped hit/exp but the 6 it rotation seems to do better for me even though im performing both rotations right.

 

Kupoe

oh definitely.

when i was constructing this "spec", which I'm sure has been discussed in this 48 page thread... X_x

I was thinking more along the lines of 10 man and 5 man groups. it brings AM and icy talons. so for a group of fury war rogue and ret paladin, I alone would bring a huge increase to the groups DPS potential. in regards to my DPS, it would be a slight dip, but in regards to total time spent in a raid instance, as far as kill times go, a rough number i would throw out is 2 healers +2 tanks brings the team down to 6. 6 being 100% of the DPS - 10% because of tank DPS (rough estimate)
90% 90/6= 15% per each DPS (considering that they do equal DPS, which is unlikely)

4 of em being ret paladin fury war DK rogue. 60% of the DPS

an increase of 60% * 1.3 (30% (AP and haste) = 78%. +2 DPS (at 15% each) 78% + 30% = 108%+ tank DPS 10%

118% increase to total raid DPS.

napkin math, as I'm not really good at math.
has anyone ever calculated the total benefit to Kill time and Instance Clear in regards to a "ShamKnight"? It would be interesting to know, as I am more of a person who thinks along the lines of "what can I bring to this raid" vs "how can I top that chart" I think along the lines of sum total. Enhance Shaman vs Shamknight, who brings more to the table in regards to raid DPS?

But yeah, swapping out bloody strikes for icy touch would be a better choice to DPS, now that i think of it, Icy touch + glacial rot= 10% more?

but how does icy touch stack up vs bloody strikes? in regards to veteran of the 3rd war vs glyphed bloody strikes?
what does more DPS? the reason why i chose bloody strikes was because its easier to reach hit cap for melee vs hit cap for spells, and that hit cap itemization could be used towards crit or AP vs taking something with more hit.

 

Petersen

But you DON'T lose Expertise, infact you *gain* 1 Expertise.

Comparing 27/44/0 to 17/54/0:

+1 Expertise
+8% Strength, static
+6% Stamina (non-contribution to DPS, but worth mentioning)
+10% AP (only if there's no one else providing this buff, which I've been told is most efficient for DKs over Shaman, and I forget the last time I saw a MM hunter in our raids)
+20% Damage on Blood Strike (not much of a bonus)

-10% damage to Frost-Fevered targets
-10 Yards to the range of IT, HB, CoI
-Unbreakable Armor (Frost Rune and GCD for +10% Str. for 20 of 60 seconds)
-Lichborne (fear break, which bosses fear, again?)
-Death Chill (1 auto-crit every 2 minutes, what's that like, .0001% crit? nice for AoE with HB, but that's it.)

I don't really see how losing 10% damage is "crippling" when you're gaining 4.666% strength (and a GCD every minute) and 10% AP.

Though assuming you're getting UR from a shaman, why isn't anyone using something like this? Drop all those situational or half-useless talents (Lichborne, Arctic Reach, Deathchill) for a static +2% Str. and +2 Expertise. (DRM can be changed to Rune Tap to get down to VTW, if you find it borking up your rotation).


EDIT:

I got so caught up in all that I forgot my question.

So between Glyph of Frost Strike and Chill of the Grave and Runic Power Mastery I'm generating/having more Runic Power than I can actually use before my runes refresh (in Blood Presence), this is even before I got my T7(4) bonus last night. From what I've observed Frost Strike is my hardest-hitting ability, so should I not worry as much about wasting 'rune time' as wasting Runic Power by letting it cap? Literally, outside Unholy Presence I do not have the GCDs to use my runes on cooldown and dump all my Runic Power using a 'standard' rotation like:

IT BS OB OB <dump>
BS IT OB OB <dump>

And this is BEFORE I get an additional 10 RP per Obliterate.

¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.

 

Odii

Except the standard highest DPS frost build is currently considered to be 21/50/0

 

EwokChilli

Look at the Top DPS 3.0.8 thread, you'll see at least one of every spec. You'll even find 2 21/50/0 specs in there. One of them uses ITx6, one of them uses OBx4. A lot of it has to do with your raid group, your MT, and so fort. If you have a warrior MT, then you'll get sunders, if not then you have to hope some rogue is willing to take a shot to his dps so that you can have bigger numbers. If you have a paladin or dk for MT, then ITx6 will net you more dps because on those dps fights, everyone is worried about their own dps and won't be reducing armor for you.

As for 27/44/0 we'll say it again, it's a solid spec if you don't run with someone else that gives the 10% AP buff. Otherwise 21/50 > 27/44.

 

Ihmemies

This is why it would be interesting to see someone prove, whether or not you can make more than 15% damage in unholy presence, with the runes/rune power you didn't have time to use in blood presence.

 

Odii

As I stated earlier, if you average rotation length <11.5 seconds while in blood, you are better off in blood presence. As others have stated, it is a DPS gain to let your rotation run greater then 10 seconds in order to frost strike while in blood presence.

Which presence is better is largely depends on factors that vary from person to person (miss/dodge rate, latency, IT6 vs. OB2). Nobody can make that determination but the individual player. You have to figure it out for yourself.

 

morbidjbyrd

Except 10% dmg to roughly 70-80% of your abilities is far greater than 4.66% str.
TS =~ 7% dmg increase
1% str < 1% dmg

I think its pretty clear why 21/50 is better.

And that spec you linked is the std 21/50 ppl figured out when the patch hit.

With the std rotation
IT BS OB OB

You generate 103 RP per rotation. 103 RP is slightly more than enough for 3 FS's (96 RP)


To know whether your should FS or not you need to know how much your Avg rune ability hits for.
(IT + Ob + Ob + BS / 4) / 1.5 = X dps


Solve for Y
FS dmg / y second > X dps

If Y > 1.5 seconds then it is always better to FS even if the GCD goes completely over your rune cooldowns.


example:

Assuming no lag, your rotation consists of 7 specials which is 10.5 seconds.
If you only used 2 FS's you would effectively waste 1 sec. If you use that 3rd FS it only takes .5 second over your Runes.

Lets say y = .5 sec
FS dmg / .5 sec >> X dps
Of course with lag and human error you are looking more like at a 1 sec timeframe.

 

germanator

I thought the rotation was for 2h frost dps was:

IT OBL BS OBL RPDUMP (with 1 DR in Blood Pres)

does it matter if BS was before the OBL?

IT BS OBL OBL RPDUMP

 

Skliros

Here's my question for the smart ppl. I currently use ITx6 rotation with the 21/50/0 spec. I'm happy with my overall dps based on my crappy gear. My current glyphs are OB, FS, and IT. I'm noticing a lot of DK's (even some frost spec) have a huge % of damage done on AoE pulls through death and decay.

The question is, for the AoE damage gained would it be worth replacing any of those glyphs with a D&D glyph? If so, I obviously will throw a D&D in for good AoE damage, but if not, is it worth throwing a D&D in the mix up front to add to AoE damage, or should i stick with IT on as many targets as I can (depending on if I have death runes available), then using HB? Or speaking of that, would IT>Pestilence>HB be better?

 

Goetterdaemmerung

IT>PS>Pest>HB

If you don't have KM by the time HB is up, BB instead, and FS while being careful not to eat a sudden KM with it.

 

Taizu

No.
For AoE situation you want to cast DnD > pest > Blood Tap > HB
PS has been shown as a waste of rune and gcd for Frost rotation.

 

Petersen

As long as they're "equivalent" to one another, the specific order is (to a degree) unimportant. I say to a degree, because you still want to keep up/start with IT for Tundra Stalker.



Also, my problems with excess RP must have stemmed from bad play, or a similar cause, I went to work on the practice dummy for about an hour last night trying to hammer out 'how to play' 21/50 with DRM (not using the 6IT rotation, but using the T7(4) bonus). It ended up that I'd usually stick my second Blood Rune as a Death Rune and I could get 'rotations' like this:

IT OB BS (BT)OB <dump>
IT OB OB IT <dump>
*Blood Tapping only on the first rotation or to try and recover an incorrectly hit ability (typically a symptom of having DRM, but it keeps things at least feeling more dynamic, which is much more interesting for me to play).

Occasionally you will generate enough RP for a fourth FS, and generally, since it hits harder than any of my rune abilities the formula quoted below has an obvious conclusion, as you will see.

is more compactly stated:
FS/ y sec > ((IT + 2OB + BS)/4)/1.5

If we let Y be 1.5, the 'break even' point past which as FS damage increases so does the DPS gain by delaying runes, then we have:
FS > (IT+ 2OB + BS)/4

Or in other words, your Frost strike must be doing at least the average damage of your rune abilities. Obviously the average of three attacks that hit for less than FS is going to be less than FS so I delay my runes to get it off. The big question is what about Rime? There's really no room for it without delaying some rune abilities even more and it seems^ to hit harder than even FS, but it has a chance to miss, I suppose if (HB Damage)*(chance to land) > (IT+2OB+BS)/4, then it's worth delaying.

Typically I wove in Unbreakable Armor in the second phase replacing the second IT in that phase. If Rime procs merit the GCS one should probably use Rime Procs before the Frost Strikes (lest the Rime expire) or, if in the second phase it procs off the first IT, use it immediately prior to the second IT (in case of a second Rime Proc from the second IT). One should probably drop the last FS in such situations to renew FF (and the immediately FS again, since it's the highest DPGCD ability). In my test runs, occasionally I would not quite get IT off before FF expires, which is an instant DPS loss (10% less damage on the IT), but I should think it is more than made up by squeezing in the extra FS.

^=I'll try to DPS this weekend's Patchwerk, so I can pore over the WWS and get a better idea of the 'average' (one fight won't be nearly a large enough sample size to get anything accurate, but it should be in the proverbial 'ball park') damages of my attacks.

¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.

 

EwokChilli

For AE, I let one of the other 4 DKs (like our 2 dk tanks) spread IT for me, and I just throw D&D and HB.

 

awakened

Generally speaking, I'd rather do direct damage and have those numbers consistently show up as my top 3 abilities than see an AoE ability take one of those slots. If your DPS needs an AoE crutch to remain competitive, you are letting the game play the class for you.

 

Petersen

I'm glad my DPS isn't like you. I don't like taking 10 hours to do a 6 hour instance because the DPS is too 'proud' to kill trash efficiently.

¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.

 

Taizu

I did a quick napkin math to calculate RP generation in a typical frost rotation.
Assuming IT glyph, 4T7, and FS glyph
Assume Blood Presence, and haste not being significant enough to affect the GCD (1.5 seconds)

first rotation: IT > BS > BT > Ob > Ob = 110 RP (4 GCD = 6 seconds)
110 RP = 3.4375 FS (round down to 3)
All other rotation: IT > BS > Ob > Ob = 100 RP (4 GCD = 6 seconds)
100 RP = 3.125 FS (Round down to 3)

3 FS takes 4.5 seconds (3 GCD), so each rotation lasts 10.5 seconds. Seeing that Frost Fever lasts 12 seconds, we can theoretically keep this rotation indefinitely (allowing latency/lag), and if you have a near perfect latency you can squeeze in 1 more attack in the rotation to milk more dps before FF drops.

If you have Heigan sigil and in a raid setting with fully debuffed mob, Oblit is actually more DPS/DPGCD than FS.


How do Impurity (25% more coefficient from AP) and Tundra Stalker (abilities do 10% more damage on FF-ed targets) compare?

 

EwokChilli

Well, Impurity affects IT... only. So IT is modified by 0.125 AP instead of 0.1. Tundra Stalker affects IT, OB, BS, FS by 10%. So IT gets 0.11 instead of 0.125 from AP, but the two attacks that usually make up 60% of your dps get a 10% bonus. FS is not affected by Impurity.

 

Taizu

In that case why do most frost DK's go 44/27 instead of 17/54 or 21/50 and their variants? Are ghouls/garg that significant compared to the bonus in TS?

 

Melizande

Well. I took some advice and went ahead and tried the 6xIT spec/rotation last night.
Incidentally, I found out after the Patchwerk fight ended that neither of our warlocks had been considerate enough to put up Curse of Elements, so I guess the charts are a bit borked, but here they are:

Wow Web Stats

I'm up to 4967 DPS, which is an improvement on that fight for me. Our last notable Patchwerk fight I pulled 4591:
Wow Web Stats

So DPS improvement as of switching from a strike build to 6xIT? Yes. However, I have some concerns. One is that is is a far more complicated rotation due to its speed than any of the others, which resulted at least once last night in my death due to my rotation being off and failing to notice a shadow fissure beneath my feet as I tried to figure out how to correct it.

The other KEY thing I noticed is that apparently once in a while Blood of the North simply doesn't take. I Blood Strike, and the rune does not convert into a death rune, which slightly throw off my rotation. It happens often enough that it is very irritating.

Another thing that bothers me a bit about the rotation is that it is not very friendly against quickly dying single target mobs. I'm more inclined to throw on Blood Presence and go back to my old rotation for some trash, as well as Sapphiron. Any thoughts here?

For a class that is already micromanaging four resources, it's definitely a challenge to be trying to master such a touchy sensitive rotation.

It has the potential to do a lot of DPS. I've definitely improved my numbers, although my Sigil of Awareness is starting to collect dust now. Maybe I'm making a mistake.

 

methods

I would assume this is when you attempt to BS while blood runes are not up yet and you end up eating death runes from your OBs.