Frosty DPS Discussion (no magic hat required) - Page 50

Tepesh · 01/21/09, 5:49 AM

Originally Posted by Yotka

No you're damn right for OB but FS is a little different.

I guess you refer by "a little different" to not being dogeable, etc. As far as i can see this doesnt change the fact that its a "strike" and not a "spell" and therefore working just as OB, BS, PS, ...

As far as i understand neither OB nor FS get the bonus AP from impurity, or is the impurity tooltip completely wrong and its applying to all ablilities, spells und strikes?

Yotka · 01/21/09, 6:10 AM

No what I meant is that FS uses special attack mechanics (8% hit) but deals Frost damage (unmitigated) and is buffed by EpB/CoE and other magical damage buffs.

It's an ability but it deals Magic Damage (just like SS which is why on a 13083 armor boss SS hits for almost the same numbers as OB).

Althir · 01/21/09, 6:31 AM

Obliterate is not a spell. It's a strike. It uses melee hit and melee crit. Frost strike is not a spell. It's a strike. It uses melee crit. The only thing that's even remotely abnormal about either of these abilities is that Frost Strike does elemental damage (no armor) and can't be avoided (tooltip). Scourge Strike, by the way, is also a strike, using melee hit, crit, and does not benefit from Impurity. All this is pretty thoroughly documented throughout these DK forums, friends.

STRIKES DON'T BENEFIT FROM IMPURITY.

Yotka · 01/21/09, 6:44 AM

Never said they did.

Just saying that FS/SS have their ass sitting in a strange boat that fcks up ArP as a stat for Frost and Unholy builds since they deal magic damage even though OB/BS/Aattack would benefit from it.

I'm willing to hand my ass over to a dev if in exchange OB "ignores all armor"... would be slighty OP in PvP but who cares!

It's a sacrifice I would do for the DK community but the dev better sign a contract or something like that or I'll be double fucked.

Tepesh · 01/21/09, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by Althir

STRIKES DON'T BENEFIT FROM IMPURITY.

Thanks for clarification in that Point. So what else is the point in unholy subspec for deep-frost 2h if its clearly not impurity?

Teme · 01/21/09, 7:34 AM

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft slight mod from DW spec

This is all IT and FS spam, with FS glyph and Unholy presence. Icy reach is just a personal preference.

When gargoyle is out you'll still have plenty of time and RP to do more than IT spam to feed it, you will be very busy with this spec.

Using HB during KM is not so much a priority on single targets as FS hits much harder this time.

I'm not one to stick to rotations but generally I just IT, PS, HB, BS, BS, RP dumps then alternate IT and FS on the next rotation and so on.

Not a fan of OB, for this spec it just doesn't hit hard enough.

ksearo · 01/21/09, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by Yotka

Just saying that FS/SS have their ass sitting in a strange boat that fcks up ArP as a stat for Frost and Unholy builds since they deal magic damage even though OB/BS/Aattack would benefit from it.

Frost Strike is not like Scourge Strike.

Scourge Strike:"An unholy strike that deals 60% of weapon damage as Shadow damage plus 190.5, and an additional 95.25 bonus damage per disease."

Frost Strike:"Instantly strike the enemy, causing 60% weapon damage plus 69 as Frost damage. Can't be dodged, blocked, or parried."

The key difference is Scourge Strike "deals 60% of weapon damage as Shadow damage" while Frost Strike "causing 60% weapon damage." Scourge Strike converts the melee damage to shadow damage while Frost Strike, in no way, converts that melee damage to damage of any given school. The additional damage dealt by Frost Strike is frost damage.

Yotka · 01/21/09, 9:08 AM

If you say so

I'll let you do the boring part on math with your stats and 13083 Boss armor.

Then tell me FS isn't elemental damage.

If you want I'll help you figure it out for yourself the easy way:

Get naked. As in totally naked. Equip a Grey/White weapon with no stats.

Dps the WB Dummy.

Then ask a warrior to sunder the dummy.

Dps again.

Compare FS damage (average damage and not total damage).

But I believe that even before you get to try that out your false comment might be trashed by a load of angry Dks who know what they're talking about.

There is an even shorter way to go around it:

Read the tooltip correctly.

Frost Strike Rank 6
40 Runic Power Melee Range
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
Instantly strike the enemy, causing 60% weapon damage plus 150 as Frost damage. Can't be dodged, blocked, or parried.

You're welcome.

kriS411 · 01/21/09, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by ksearo

Frost Strike is not like Scourge Strike.

Scourge Strike:"An unholy strike that deals 60% of weapon damage as Shadow damage plus 190.5, and an additional 95.25 bonus damage per disease."

Frost Strike:"Instantly strike the enemy, causing 60% weapon damage plus 69 as Frost damage. Can't be dodged, blocked, or parried."

The key difference is Scourge Strike "deals 60% of weapon damage as Shadow damage" while Frost Strike "causing 60% weapon damage." Scourge Strike converts the melee damage to shadow damage while Frost Strike, in no way, converts that melee damage to damage of any given school. The additional damage dealt by Frost Strike is frost damage.

I wouldn't bet on this - Blizzard tooltips tend to be confusing sometimes and if you were right frost strike would need to create 2 combat log entries + if you use frost strike on magic(frost) immune mobs you'll recive an "Immune" message and deal no damage at all.

IMHO Frost Strike deals frost damage only, even if the tooltip is slightly different to the scourge strike one.

• Zurm · 01/21/09, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by ksearo

The key difference is Scourge Strike "deals 60% of weapon damage as Shadow damage" while Frost Strike "causing 60% weapon damage." Scourge Strike converts the melee damage to shadow damage while Frost Strike, in no way, converts that melee damage to damage of any given school. The additional damage dealt by Frost Strike is frost damage.

This is entirely wrong. Hit a warrior with frost strike, then hit a mage. They will hit for (approximately) the same damage. (EDIT) Beat to the punch!

And for those who are curious, here's what you get from a 0/44/27 build to replace the extra crit and AP:

-Permanent ghoul (~700 dps)
-Gargoyle (not sure if nerfed is a better RP use than FS with a 2H, but it I bet it probably still is if used when procs are up)
-Necrosis (at 20% now, much better)
-BCB (meh)
-5% strength (ravenous dead + shadow of death)
-VIRULENCE, NOT EPIDEMIC
-NO OUTBREAK
-Impurity (for IT and diseases alone it's worth it, not to mention AOE with HB).

What you lose:

-Tundra stalker (5 expertise and 10% damage)
-Bladed armor (~400 ap)
-Subversion (9% oblit crit)
-Dark Conviction (5% everything crit)

Here's an example of a proper 0/44/27 build. IMO, it's worth it.

Petersen · 01/21/09, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Zurm

And for those who are curious, here's what you get from a 0/44/27 build to replace the extra crit and AP:

<snip>

Here's an example of a proper 0/44/27 build. IMO, it's worth it.

Why 3/3 RPM instead of 2/3 and 1/1 Lichborne?

vALKHAN · 01/21/09, 9:27 AM

Hey guys, I'm trying to understand which build you are referring to as 0/44/27 (if 2h or dw) and what's he rotation to use for it (for example if to use obliterate or not) and which glyphs are better for it
Any help pls? I'm new to frost tree

Tnx

Teme · 01/21/09, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Here's an example of a proper 0/44/27 build. IMO, it's worth it.

Annihilation is no good since OB hits like a pussy as 44/27 and is a waste of 2 runes (HB hits harder), HB should be your only 2 rune attack unless you want that 3% crit otherwise points can be better spent elsewhere.

EDIT: Its even worth putting 3 points from annihilation into NoCS for DW/2H spec

Yotka · 01/21/09, 9:33 AM

I'm thinking 3/5 Impurity and 2/2 Dirge deals more damage than 5/5 impurity.

Impurity only applies to IT and Summon Gargoyle (Yes it benefits from it) and the difference between 3/5 and 5/5 on IT and Garg would be:

Garg:

0.42*1.15 = 0.483 Without Impurity

0.42*1.25 = 0.525 With Impurity

IT:

0.1*1.15 = 0.115 Without Impurity

0.1*1.25 = 0.125 With Impurity

Dirge on the other hand is an extra 5 RP on OB.

With 4pt7/CotG/Dirge OB would be ((15+5)+5)+10 = 35 RP per OB.

With Garg losing 40% damage (30 seconds duration and -20% damage) - only 1 IT per rotation and FS being the RP dump and not DC I tend to believe that 5 RP per OB would be superior.

In a IT>OB>OB>BS
IT>OB>BS>OB rotation we would get an extra 20 RP.

Every 2 rotations we get an extra 1.25 FS.

Depending on gear I believe that extra 1.25 FS would deal more damage then Garg/IT with 5/5 Impurity.

Yotka · 01/21/09, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by Teme

Annihilation is no good since OB hits like a pussy as 44/27 and is a waste of 2 runes (HB hits harder), HB should be your only 2 rune attack unless you want that 3% crit otherwise points can be better spent elsewhere.

EDIT: Its even worth putting 3 points from annihilation into NoCS for DW/2H spec

Zurm is using a 2h for his 0/44/27 build.

And a glyphed OB with [Sigil of Awareness] will deal similar damage to HB.

Also OB has 32% Cc from talents.

HB also fucks up Rime procs in rotations - generates less RP than HB with 4pt7 - Eats up KM procs that would be reserved for FS otherwise.

As for 3/5 Imp 2/2 Dirge vs 5/5 Imp it allows you to have better KM proc using since you can weave FS in between OB.