awakened

I only speak of what I see raid in and raid out having run the one spec through all the Blizzard changes along the way. All the other DKs in my guild hopped on the respec to this or that bandwagon hoping to be top DPS in an instant. I have consistently played the same spec, they have not, so I can see how they do compared to me. I also speak in regards to DKs versus the other melee classes. DW any spec is basically going to put out the better numbers because the game so favors it right now. What happens *in the future* is merely speculation, I am talking about what happens in a raid now. A well played DW spec should own a 2H DK in DPS. A very well played 2H DK might beat them, but odds are not favorable. In essence, I do well because those around me don't do well. That doesn't make my spec better than theirs. I'm pretty certain that if I did go DW, I'd rock the charts compared to what I do as 2H deep frost. And I'm not talking about one out gearing the other, I'm talking about equal gear, different specs. 2H does fine, it just doesn't compare to DW.

 

Athyr

That is a nice rotation. However I find that I can increase my DPS on the boss dummy from 2400 to 2600 self buffed by doing the following rotation which I have not seen posted including Hb:

BT
IT Ob HB BS (FS)
IT Ob HB IT (FS)

The rotation does occasionally break down when IT is not available when you expect it to be but that can be easily corrected by popping BT again

I have also seen the discussion that with a decent weapon (I have Jawbone) there is no reason to use HB over Ob on single target. However even factoring the slightly higher crit rate on Ob (Only slightly higher because Hb is benefiting from KM procs) my Hb outdamages Ob (4300 to 4200 on average) on a single target. Any sort of AOE would obviously favor including HB even more. Additionally I can make use of Rime procs to use HB and substitute an additional Ob (IT Ob HB Ob (IT/BS))

 

EwokChilli

Just know that you're using KM procs on HB that could be going towards FS.

 

Melizande

Speaking of which, one thing I've noticed using the 6xIT rotation in Unholy Presence, is that you're spamming abilities so quickly that more often than not my KM procs are eaten up immediately by ITs, because it's very hard to catch them in time to Frost Strike.

I've also noticed, however, using recount, that my DPS tends to drop when I am trying actively to FS whenever I see a KM proc (I use Power Auras to make it very obvious), and my numbers are much, much/ higher when I forget about it and save most of my Frost Strikes to spam at the tail end of each rotation.

 

EwokChilli

I don't like having to watch for KM procs either, so I personally just weave 1 FS inbetween my first 2 and second 2 rune abilities so that my 2.4 speed swings or whatever they are with haste have a chance to proc KM. It'll be absurdly rare for me to have more than 1 proc in 3 seconds, so that's why I personally do OB OB FS IT BS Dump. I've found that 85% of my KM get eaten by FS this way instead of IT, although some of them proc right after I do that FS in the middle of the rotation, but it's better not to cut hairs about something like that. Although, if Rime procs and KM procs, I'll usually make an exception and do HB instead of FS.

 

Petersen

There could be a couple of reasons for that. First, depending on which dummy you're using you might be hitting ancillary targets, artificially inflating the damage from HB. Second, you may well be 'just getting lucky' with the hits. HB works of spell hit and as such should need to do about 9% more damage (in an unbuffed situation) than OB to be worth using over OB, which it very well may in an unbuffed situation, but as you stack on the Raid Buffs OB would start to catch up. HB's coefficient is only .1 (if the TCTT for DPS DKs is up-to-date), whereas OB's effective 'coefficient' is (assuming my 'math' and reasoning are right) ~0.071*3.3~=0.236. So while unbuffed HB may seem better than OB, in a raid situation where you've got less chance to fail to land an OB, and buffs out the wazoo, OB will scale far better

From my work on the target dummy I've observed HB does indeed hit harder than FS (so what's the problem using KM Procs on HB? O.o), *but* it has a chance to miss. FS also 'scales' just like OB, so it's easy to see that raid buffed HB isn't really useful for single-target DPS.

¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.

 

Bovii

As a Frost off spec (ie 20 points max), is it more beneficial to go 4/5 Black Ice with 5/5 Killing Machine or vice versa? I ask as I was in a bit of an arguement with another DK the other day about this and they claimed that maxing out Black Ice was more beneficial as KM is on a proc per minute. I contend that maxing out KM more than makes up for the loss of 6% damage.

Thoughts?

 

• frmorrison

You can get both at 5 point with 20 in Frost. Assuming you had to pick for some reason, KM is likely better.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Feorthas

But without 31+, the big draw for KM just isn't there, so 5/5 Black Ice is the better choice.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Khaosknight

I have no idea why you would be putting 20 points into frost without maxing out both talents, however, Killing machine is extremely effective for any DK, except perhaps a blood deathknight, who's IT's crit for 600. If you are a tank, then I'd say Black Ice is better, because 6% more damage = a constant tps increase, whereas a slightly higher crit chance = RNG based TPS increase. If you are DPS, go for KM.

 

Melizande

Interesting. I've debated this for a while, considering HB has it's own chance to crit, I often FS first, to eat up KM, and then HB immediately afterward, crossing my fingers for a crit.

Obviously in AoE situations, I almost exclusively HB.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

What does this mean?

 

Melizande

That Howling Blast has a chance to crit equal to your spell crit. So when you have both a Rime and a KM proc waiting, you have the choice (given the required RP), to either use HB, and force a crit with it using the KM proc, or you can Frost Strike crit first, and then cast the Howling Blast and it will either crit (yay!) or not (oh well).

I've just seen higher FS crits so I tend to opt for that one when I have a KM proc.

 

EwokChilli

As for OB scaling faster than HB, while HB has a .1 coeff and OB works out to .236, HB gets x2 if IT is applied, black ice, etc. I'm sure it comes up to JUST short of OB scaling with AP and also crits are 225% instead of 245%, but HB does get to ignore armor. The reason I don't use it though is so that I get more mileage out of KM on my FS and also OB has 27-32% (based on agility) more to crit than HB does (without KM). While FS has a pretty good crit rate on it's own (~35% for me), I'm pretty sure it's more of a dps increase to use as many KM as i can on FS than to replace an OB with a HB. If Rime procs though, I treat HB just like another FS.

Has anyone played around with the 0/44/27 frost build? Just curious how it compares now that necrosis has been buffed significantly. Also curious if CotG + Dirge has proven effective, 35 RP per OB seems kind of good (with 4pT7). Would it be a dps increase to use Gargoyle and then hold our rotation to 6 GCDs (while Garg is up) or is FS greater dmg/RP than Garg? I know that Garg will be moved at 3.1.0, but might as well take advantage of it while we can. Although can also argue if Unholy Blight (which will be the new 21 pt Unholy supposedly) would be a dps increase since it's kind of a fire & forget that would help cut down on GCDs.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

Your reasoning is a little flawed... FS also has its "own chance" to crit, so you're just as likely to see a HB+KM, FS+luck double crit. In fact, you're significantly *more* likely to see this -- being a spell, HB has a significantly lower base chance to crit. Thus, you are getting more 'bang' from your KM (i.e., HB's crit is improved from 25% -> 100%, so KM is improving your HB crit by 75%. FS's crit is improved from 45% -> 100%, so KM is improving your FS crit by only 55%).

However I do the same thing as you for a different reason: HB misses.

 

EwokChilli

While HB crits > FS crits, HB uses runes so you should be comparing it to OB. It's a toss to whether you want to have your rotation average a little more avg dps (considering improved HB crit rate from KM vs OB crit rate) or you can get supposidly more dps increase by increasing the crit % of FS with KM. The argument is that OB + KM FS > KM HB + FS. It just doesn't seem that good an idea to go from an ability that crits 62%+ to an ability that crits 25% and needs a proc to crit 100%, and that proc could otherwise be used to make a FS crit.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

Uh, we're talking about Rime. Spending runes on HB is not an option.

 

Athyr

That goes against my recount data for my Naxx run last night. Unfortunately Im not at my home computer to provide exact numbers reviewing 3 hours of recount data following my Naxx raid I found that FS and Hb hit for very similar numbers with FS just slightly more. 9700 top FS crit vs 8900 top HB crit for instance. however Ob trailed well behind the other 2 abilities. The same went for average damage each ability did. Overall i would summarize it as FS > Hb >> Ob. Later I can edit my post to include my exact numbers.

The main reason I was paying attention was due to the response above stating that Ob would scale better than Hb. While it eventually might at my gear level 4500 AP with raid buffs and 35% crit, Hb seems a better investment in runes than Ob and overall it seems that Hb is superior enough to Ob that FS + KM Hb > KM FS + Ob. KM Hb and KM FS were so similar to each other in value that if I make them the same variable and subtract them from that equation, I would be left with FS > Ob which makes sense. The reverse would not if I were to accept your equation

 

Kaejin

My Oblits are consistently higher than my Howling Blasts and Frost Strikes. If you use Glyph of Oblit and Sigil of Awareness, I don't see why either would ever eclipse it. My gear isn't anything stellar, either. I usually tank so my DPS stuff is a mix of 25-man gear and 10-man gear I pick up when no main-spec DPS needs it, and I don't even have Betrayer (which would favor Oblit even more).

Howling Blast can occasionally come close to my average Oblit crit (somewhere in the mid 9000s), but it's more common for my Oblits to break 10000 than it is for my HBs to encroach on them.


This is from the last Naxx run I DPSed on with a DPS spec, if you care to dig around and see for yourself.
Wow Web Stats

 

squashy

about 10 or 15 pages back there was some talk of weaving FS in between all rune-based abilities in a standard frost rotation, but it seems to have taken back seat to the IT x6 rotation. my own trials showed that my best output came from a rotation akin to:

IT, FS, OB, FS, OB, (BT + UA) FS, BS, FS

when RP was insufficient for a FS i horn of winter for extra RP and move onto the next part of my rotation. UH presence with a 17/54 spec seems to allow more or less non-stop usage of abilities and the best dps, and it scales infinitely better from what i can tell in raids, as the spell hit required for the ITx6 rotation to be seamless is rather daunting, especially for horde who lack the draenei racial.

i understand the ITx6 rotation nets more RP, but it also uses many more GCDs, and even in UH presence i find that i'm more or less barely burning through my RP so i can't imagine keeping those runes on cooldown consistently with this rotation. for the record i have both sigils, and have tried rotations using them where applicable, but as stated, OB-heavy tends to win out on dummies by a somewhat small margin, and OB + FS weaving seems to outpace IT spam by a heftier margin in raid settings.

i could potentially see an ITx6 rotation gaining a lot of ground with an unholy subspec, but that takes out DRM from your arsenal, so i'm not sure how a spec/rotation would look.

 

Khaosknight

I've been thinking about these things alot lately too. I believe you could get some decent DPS out of a 6xIT rotation with 44/27 or I suppose Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (46-25) could be effective too.

With a rotation of:

IT PS BS BS HB

IT PS IT IT HB

you could get 3 IT and 2 HB, but I don't see how 6xIT is possible without the ability to generate (consistantly) 3 death runes per cycle.

You could get a 6x IT rotation with a rotation of

IT IT PS PS BS BS

IT IT PS PS IT IT

but that seems really boring and probably inefective compared to other rotations. it also only generates 210 RP which is only 6 frost strikes, 7 if you HoW right before you start. But If you like an unholy subspec, my best idea is to go

44/27 with FS Glyph, IT glyph and Ghoul Glyph, and do a

IT PS BS BS HB

IT PS IT IT HB rotation. you still get 180RP, which is 5 Frost Strikes, and you also get a ghoul (600ish dps in good gear) to make up for the slightly less damaging rotation.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

If you actually want to discuss that further (it sounds far from viable, but I'll leave the numbers to you), don't call it ITx6 -- which in reality has 7 or 8 ITs every 12 runes.

ITx6 is called this because one way to arrange the rotation has 6 ITs in sequence.

 

Travaggie

I've been running this spec with those glyphs for the last month or so with very good results, however that rotation is not as effective as you'd think it would be. You don't want Icy Touch to be the focus of your DPS in this spec. Basically, Howling Blast is the hardest hitting ability per GCD, with Frost Strike coming in 2nd, and Icy Touch third. The idea is if you aren't wasting any global cooldowns, why would you not focus your attacks around these abilities first instead of the other way around, and plague strike just has no place in this setup.

My solution was to build it around a priority based rotation, basically using Howling Blast every time it was up, Frost Strike 2nd in the priority and Icy Touch only to keep frost fever on the target, fill the extra frost runes to generate runic power in the mean time, but making sure not to prolong the next Howling Blast. If you manage your blood tap effectively, you very rarely have to even use a blood strike, and it is a very very fun spec to play. Your perma ghoul adds a solid amount of DPS and the benefit of that, Impurity, Necrosis, BCB along with ravenous dead and shadow of death more than make up for and scale better than the rest of the talents in blood and tundra stalker.

It is by far the best AOE spec we have as a death knight, generating the hardest hitting Howling Blast's available while utilizing more Killing Machine procs with a 2H, and is very high single target damage as well. I hit 6k last week on patchwerk, and will be posting tomorrows parse for confirmation.

 

Khaosknight

Since I'm more of a rotation then priority type guy (although I have used priority systems in the past)

would A
(Blood Tap)
IT HB BS (FS x2) HB FS repeat rotation be acceptable? its basically a IT OB BS OB rotation but swap HB for OB in blood presence you utilize 3 GCD's between HB's, or 4.5 seconds, that plus the amount of GCD between the first HB and the BS should be enough to make the difference 5 seconds.

The only problem is the second rotation, which would have to be

IT OB BS FS FS OB FS to get it back to the original rune set.

So a 2xOB 2xHB 2xIT 2xBS 6xFS rotation in 20 seconds ( 14 GCD's for 21 seconds total, so not TOO much rune clipping)


If not, my priority system would be

If no Frost Fever, then IT, otherwise HB>FS>IT>BS unless RP is capped or close to it.

 

Travaggie

I used to be big on rotations and didn't like using priority systems because I felt it was too random at first, but I do believe a rotation in this spec will end up causing you to use Icy Touch and Blood Strike both far more than necessary. It really is not nearly as difficult to use the priority system as it would seem, and you really get a feel for when an ability will be ready after not too long at all. Also the good thing about a priority system, is that you don't have to invest any points into runic power mastery and can put them elsewhere because you'll never be capping your runic power since Frost Strike is prioritized so high.