If you thought that PS damage might make it through with its vaguely unfair damage, see the unholy thread for numbers (that show that the new "buffed" PS is doing far less than you suspect).
I am not sure what you refer to, the numbercrunching of methods an Foxx2405 shows clearly how absurdly high the ps dmg with talents an glyph should be, ok the last post gives some vague testnumbers which seem not to prove the math right but i guess some more time and testing is needed to prove whether this is true or not.
After all i do not really believe this will go live with these absurd scaling, but who knows...at the moment these are the facte we got and we have to see what we can bring up with those
I am not sure what you refer to, the numbercrunching of methods an Foxx2405 shows clearly how absurdly high the ps dmg with talents an glyph should be, ok the last post gives some vague testnumbers which seem not to prove the math right but i guess some more time and testing is needed to prove whether this is true or not.
After all i do not really believe this will go live with these absurd scaling, but who knows...at the moment these are the facte we got and we have to see what we can bring up with those
/facepalm
The "numbercrunching methods" you're talking about are making baseless assumptions (i.e., where the different multipliers apply themselves: weapon damage, bonus damage, total damage; whether they actually apply the multipliers they advertise) that require PTR testing before they're even remotely discussable.
If you want to "see what you can bring up" with wishful-thinking, best-case-scenario mechanics, then you're essentially playing a fantasy baseball version of a highly-suspect test version of the live version of wow. Seriously?
Hey, theres no reason for offences, playing around with thougts what "might" be viable and numbercrunching even if the facts we know are as limited as they are now is what keeps these fourms here alive and what makes it the first address for theorycrafting around wow.
If you are just interested in hard facts and final conclusions you might just take a break and come back here when 3.1 goes live and the new cookie-cutters have been found...
The new PS is not that great if you are looking at it for a damaging ability. Using a Betrayer, glyphed, talented, self buffed on a dummy I was getting ~1.1k hits and ~2.5k crits. That's as Unholy which is not what most specs in this thread are focused on, but I wanted to highlight max potential.
The goal Blizzard have for it, is that it should be a button you don't hate pushing. In this, it should be successful. It's initial hit is ok, and it's crit is not bad, but mainly with disease multipliers being % based (+12.5% per disease etc) you'll want Blood Plague in there. Previously, it sucked at everything and diseaseless was competitive.
The goal Blizzard have for it, is that it should be a button you don't hate pushing. In this, it should be successful..
I wouldn't call it a success. How many DKs will be using the Plague Strike glyph? If this were a change to the baseline skill, sure, but sacrificing more useful slots to buff Plague Strike to almost useful is a pretty lame design.
I know posting a "Trial" Spec is frowned upon, but with the PTR here, and my guild getting ready to go into ulduar, I had to try and throw something together as a frost spec, since I signed up as the frost raid buff back when I was DW, I would like to stick to my job in the guild, while doing my best to max my DPS.
The spec is in progress, please comment, and help me =)
PS-IT-OB-HS-HS -> FS FS (3-If possible, make sure UB is up)
PS-IT-OB-OB -> FS FS (3-If possible)
- when on CD Ghoul frenzy instead of PS should be fine, as long as not on opening rotation since 6 extra seconds.
Thanks.
If anyone is on the PTR already, I would love someone to post a preview output if they would be nice =)
Ok I'm looking for a bit of advice. First of all I'm sorry that I'm sure this has been said many times over, but I've looked over every page here and still can't seem to come to a conclusion as to which rotation would work best with my spec / gear setup and so maybe someone here could help out.
I do have 4pc bonus along with the betrayer and icy touch sigil, yet I just feel like I'm doing something wrong since my dps seems to be on the low side compared to my normal duel wield 32/39 build. I still need a few pieces of gear to bring my hit and expertise up, but of course these pieces never drop and I'm not terribly far off from either of them so I don't know if those are really a big issue or not.
Here is the rotation I've been using so far which I believe is the most common rotation:
BT - IT - OB - OB - BS - FS dump
IT - OB - BS -OB - FS dump... rinse and repeat
Now I've seen a bit on the ITx6 rotation and maybe it would work better for me, but I still can't clearly make out exactly what the rotation would be for some reason since I'm guessing you're using 6x IT in a row, but from the posts I've seen it doesn't seem that way. If someone could clearly point out what that would be it would be greatly appreciated.
Finally, should I be in blood or unholy presence for either of those rotations?
Again I apologize for possibly asking a rhetorical question, but I just can't seem to find what I'm looking for. Thanks for any help!
I know posting a "Trial" Spec is frowned upon, but with the PTR here, and my guild getting ready to go into ulduar, I had to try and throw something together as a frost spec, since I signed up as the frost raid buff back when I was DW, I would like to stick to my job in the guild, while doing my best to max my DPS.
The spec is in progress, please comment, and help me =)
PS-IT-OB-HS-HS -> FS FS (3-If possible, make sure UB is up)
PS-IT-OB-OB -> FS FS (3-If possible)
- when on CD Ghoul frenzy instead of PS should be fine, as long as not on opening rotation since 6 extra seconds.
Thanks.
If anyone is on the PTR already, I would love someone to post a preview output if they would be nice =)
Tundra Stalker is a very valuable talent; you should try hard to get it, if you're in the vicinity.
Unbreakable armor is now essentially a static, powerful 8.3% strength talent (for dps specs).
You meant to say BS, not HS.
As implemented, Ghoul Frenzy probably isn't worth casting.
Epidemic is fairly useless to you, if you're using PS+IT every 10 seconds. In general, blood is believed to be a better subspec for a strike-heavy (non DW) frost build. It seems you might be trying to adapt your DW build to 2h frost, when it might be better for you to start from scratch in how you think about spending talents.
Glyph of Howling Blast *new* -- Your Howling Blast ability now infects your targets with Frost Fever.
So, does HB apply FF then calculate it's damage? Or does it do it's damage while applying FF thus we miss out on the 50% extra damage.
If it works like IT and Tundra Stalker's 10%, it'll do its damage first then apply the FF, which means you won't get the 20% extra damage from having FF up.
On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James Nicoll
If I only have 2 talent points left, and I am choosing between 2 points in Tundra Stalker vs 2 points in 2 handed weapon specialisation, which is better? I think 2H weapon spec is better because it affects everything, White damage plus strike damage and melee based abilities, whereas Tundra Stalker doesn't include white damage. Am I reading this correctly?
Another question. Now that diseases last 15 sec base. Epidemic increases it to 21sec? (confirm?) And if this is so, it allows us to comfortably do a PS and an IT just once over a 20 second DPS cycle. So, PS and IT become something like casting a scorch spell to a fire mage. We just do these strikes only when we have to. This would mean that we should be focusing on our main damage strikes in the meantime. And for 2H frost, that would be Obliterate and frost strike.
Repeat. So, is this how blizzard "intended" frost DPS to work? It doesn't make sense that they would favour us doing a 6 IT kind of build. I just don't see IT or PS as meant to be the main damage strikes for DPS DKs to begin with. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.
If I only have 2 talent points left, and I am choosing between 2 points in Tundra Stalker vs 2 points in 2 handed weapon specialisation, which is better? I think 2H weapon spec is better because it affects everything, White damage plus strike damage and melee based abilities, whereas Tundra Stalker doesn't include white damage. Am I reading this correctly?
...
I just don't see IT or PS as meant to be the main damage strikes for DPS DKs to begin with. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.
You should never need to make the choice between Tundra Stalker and 2H weapon spec. Regardless of your specific spec, take two points out of bladed armor, and get both.
That's a leap. They just recently added an IT +dmg sigil, which could be used to argue the opposite.
The only application I could see as a use for the Howling Blast glyph is to use rime procs at the end of a rotation to reapply FF before it wears off and then do a PS-less rotation, except you use PS and not IT.
Howling Blast essentially replaces Icy Touch if I'm reading Blizzard's intention correctly. Frost 2H DPS doesn't use Blood Plague anyway so you could do something like this:
HB -> OB -> BS -> BS -> FS -> FS
OB -> OB -> FS -> OB -> FS -> FS
It produces 160 runic power with 4 pc T7 and Chill to the Grave. It also uses 160 runic power.
Howling Blast with 15 sec of Frost Fever attached should do more damage than an Obliterate.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Howling Blast essentially replaces Icy Touch if I'm reading Blizzard's intention correctly. Frost 2H DPS doesn't use Blood Plague anyway so you could do something like this:
HB -> OB -> BS -> BS -> FS -> FS
OB -> OB -> FS -> OB -> FS -> FS
It produces 160 runic power with 4 pc T7 and Chill to the Grave. It also uses 160 runic power.
Howling Blast with 15 sec of Frost Fever attached should do more damage than an Obliterate.
I'm going to assume you're talking about the 3.1 PTR.
"Howling Blast essentially replaces Icy Touch"; except they use different runes
"Frost 2H DPS doesn't use Blood Plague"; check the obliterate tooltip again
"It also uses 160 runic power."; check out the FS glyph
"Howling Blast with 15 sec of Frost Fever attached should do more damage than an Obliterate"; ...what?
I see 12 GCDs there (1 free). Even if it means RP overflow, replacing your HB with IT PS will (1) result in larger obliterates (2) give you blood plague damage (3) provide more RP if you can use it (4) probably even hit harder initially. Considering that IT->PS->OB/BS/OB->repeat is probably the simplest, least creative frost 2h spec, I'm curious how you thought to beat its dps with a HB rotation like the one above?
Last edited by Goetterdaemmerung : 02/25/09 at 12:47 AM.
With IT glyph and without 4/5, this rotation generates 65-70 runic power and uses 64 per 10ish seconds. All your attacks that work off of diseases hit when 2 are on, and the 2 IT at the end of the rotation don't really interrupt DoT ticking. With a decent amount of haste, these 13-14 attacks all fall under a perfect 20 second rotation. The one thing i haven't checked out is whether you could HB over the last 2 IT and still hit when your dot is on. If so, it might be better to HB at the end, and then IT if able. It is worth noting that for that to work, you would then need to have 4/5 for enough runic power generation to make up for the 25 runic power you'd lose (3 OB would give you 30 easy enough).
I can see where a pestilence glyph rotation could have merit, but i don't think i'll mind using icy touch or the newly buffed plague strike as frsot spec.
The new Howling Blast glyph infects the target with Frost Fever. That's how it replaces Icy Touch: as a Frost Fever applicator.
There is no mention of a change to the Frost Strike glyph on MMO Champion. Has it been changed? As of right now, it drops the cost of Frost Strike by 8 runic power. 32 x 5 = 160.
The idea was you drop the Icy Touch glyph for the Howling Blast glyph.
There was no mention of Obliterate changing in the patch notes so I was unaware that they changed it. Someone mentioned that the Obliterate Glyph was buffed to 25%. Was it changed similiar to Scourge Strike so it gains percentage damage per disease?
Due to latency, most people use 12 move rotations. Using 13 tends to put you over 20 seconds.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
There was no mention of Obliterate changing in the patch notes so I was unaware that they changed it. Someone mentioned that the Obliterate Glyph was buffed to 25%. Was it changed similiar to Scourge Strike so it gains percentage damage per disease?
Yes, there are no more +dmg for diseases in strikes; they're all +%. Generally, you shouldn't trust the patch notes, they're a pretty poor reflection of the PTR.
If you read Embers post, he states that HB does not apply FF before the damage, so you would be using a frost and unholy rune to do a weak HB for only 1 disease.
I'm curious if the new pest glyph would be a dps increase. Considering that pest does no damage, but refreshes both diseases on all targets would be worth 1 rune every rotation.
You would lose the IT glyph bonus because you wouldn't be getting as much RP from not using it every rotation and you would also be losing rime procs.
Edit: It seems to me so far that future for frost is Frost Strike. FS is already 35% of my total dps on a boss anyhow and it's getting a 15% buff. I can see the future of frost being that we revolve our rotaions with RP generation in mind for maxing out FS. This doesn't even count 25% more str from UA up 33ish% of the time.
Truth be told, if what blizz said was true, AoE is supposed to be diminished in Ulduar anyhow, there was a post that said that CC is supposed to be a much larger part in the new raid. So that weakens HB place as well.
Last edited by Mild Confusion : 02/25/09 at 10:26 AM.
Well, they want us to use both diseases and we can use the HB glyph to make it apply FF, so shouldn't we try something like
HB OB (BS PS) -> repeat
Might should switch OB and HB after the first pass so that HB has more chances at KM (since it hits for ~80% of what it use to) I guess we could use the HB, OB, and FS glyph (because we make 70 RP a rotation). Unfortunately, we totally don't get near as many OB as we use to, which means less RP and less FS. There's even more reason to use a BT macro for UA, since it gives 25% strength (which i'm sure stacks silly with FC and Greatness).
Does anyone on the PTR know if the new pest glyph is a major or a minor? It's currently a minor.
I'm queued, but not there yet. I'll report back when I find out more, but right now a good baseline bossfight setup could just be the standard 2xOB rotation, but replacing BS with Pest. Transitioning from the opening sequence into a Pest/IT/OB/OB/FS (dump) rotation might be tricky, but between blood tap and empowered rune weapon, you could do it, I'm sure. Then you just keep rotating through a normal 2xOB rotation, but get more damage since you've got blood plague on the mob. Given the buff to FS in the PTR, I'm hesitant to lose out on any RP generation, since frost strike will still hit really hard.
Does anyone on the PTR know if the new pest glyph is a major or a minor? It's currently a minor
I have "old" minor one and it still says "15 yards". So this must be completely new glyph as I tested one I have and it does what tooltip says (15 yard range).
Also you won't be able to test much, OB doesn't generate RP and BotN doesn't work.
1/51/19 (really some form of x/50x/19x, got 2 points to play with but I like HB for trash and 3% OB crit)
With the new Pestilence Glyph, unsure if it will be replacing the old minor glyph or be a whole new major/minor but this is the best rotation I can think of for single target. Will have to possibly replace a major if it is a new major glyph.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Starter: IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, FS Dump
Then
Rotation: OB, OB, OB, FS Dump, OB, Pestilence, BS, OB, FS Dump <---Repeat till dead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That gives 5 OB's per 20 sec rotation and the Pestilence will refresh both diseases. That is 170 RP generated per 20 sec rotation, enough for 5 glyphed Frost Strike with 4 pc bonus. Short rotations also allow for less rotation pushback from FS usage. of coarse using FS when KM procs, dump rest of RP at end of each half of rotation. This also keeps you from unintentionally having to waste a KM proc on IT if you happen to be <32 RP when it procs.
To me the 2 min recast on perma ghoul is worth investing into (3 min on ptr 2 min with Master of Ghouls). I could see the arguement on live not to get ghoul without NotD since recast is 5 min.
02/24/09, 3:03 PM
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