calanin

Are you talking about the current blood tap IT, OB, OB, BS dump rotation?

Cause it's really 2xIT, 1xBS (current) vs 1XOB PLUS the new OB gets 12.5% dmg bonus from each disease, mine uses both frost fever and blood plague, aswell as the constant disease dmg from blood plague.

Add in the extra dmg to each OB from diseases and its

4 OB vs my 5 OB rotation

2x IT -------1.625xOB (.625 from 5x12.5%)
1x BS -------Blood Plague DoT

Also with x/50x/19x you lose the IT glyph from using glyph of the ghoul.

 

Odii

No, one where you us PS+IT every 20 seconds, along with 4 OBs and 2 BSs. Feorthas had a good point in another thread, which was OB+Pest/3 damage is probably greater then PS+IT+BS/4.5, meaning that if your rotation is running longer then 10 seconds it could be a DPS boost.

One thing that I am not looking forward to about this coming patch is that it may make the question "What rotation should I use?" to be so user specific that it becomes a pain to answer and try and explain the "It depends..."

 

EwokChilli

Don't forget that by reducing the number of IT, you also increase the number of KM FS crits.

 

Odii

If you set your rotation so you use a FS immediately before an IT, the number of KM procs eaten by the IT wont be much of a factor.

 

calanin

So your talking

IT, PS, BS, BS, Obli, Frost strike dump.
then Obli, Obli, Obli, frost strike dump.

Then it is basically 1x(IT, PS, BS) and 165 rp per rotation (no IT glyph as this is for x/50x/19x) vs 1xOB, 1 less gcd on half the rotation and 170 RP.

guess we will have to test and post results after they fix the RP gen on OB and make Blood of the North work.

 

Odii

Something like that, though Id probably structure the rotation differently.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

If you talent for Killing Machine, you want to move away from "frost strike dump" mentality. Spread your FSs out as much as possible through your rotation.

 

Throiath

I'm haven't seen this posted here yet, but Obliterate is bugged again on the PTR. Its only generating 15 RP for me, 5 from Chill of the Grave and 10 from 4pc t7

 

Feorthas

Ok, so here's some initial paper-napkin math to poke at:

Flaws:
-Assumes 4T7--we won't be in 4T7 for long in Ulduar! :-/
-Can't take KM into account yet. Assume a moderate (4-5%) boost.
-Haven't Spec-Theorycrafted yet so I'm sticking with something that is pretty close to what we've had before (17/52/0 + 2)

Assumptions:
-Blood Presence
-Razorice Enchant (assuming 9% addl frost damage)
-4T7
-2 Disease Obliterate: 5564 Damage
-Frost Strike: 6493 Damage
-IT: 2987 Damage
-PS: 1513 Damage
-2 Disease BS: 2911 Damage
-Frost Fever (tick): 465 Damage
-Blood Plague (tick): 356 Damage
-AutoAttack: 968 DPS

Priority:
-Cast/Refresh diseases so IT is recast before PS wears out (and do not BS/OB while either is down!)
-Frost Strike (don't double up if possible!)
-Blood Strike
-Obliterate

Over 60 seconds, this nets about 4167 DPS, down from 4337 DPS so we're looking at a slight buff after procs come into play; HOWEVER, this may very well not be the 'optimal' sequence, so we may actually be looking at a non-trivial (5%+ if we're LUCKY) buff. At the very least, scaling should be improved.

If anyone else could start running these numbers through their cycles--it doesn't have to be for a 60 second cycle, just play with them (and remember to lower damage by 15% if you want to swap to UH Pres!)--and see if you can beat that while I work on the sheet itself. Fortunately, because we are no longer GCD limited, we can, in fact, spend two GCDs to recast our diseases every 15 seconds.

Suggestion: someone see if having 21s diseases (Epidemic) is a larger boost than 5% crit. I'm betting no, but I've been wrong quite a few times before so...

Edit Notes: Massive edit from earlier; I have my spreadsheet working in a very very messy form right now but it can do 60s damage cycles and uses the new numbers, talents, etc. I've used put those into the math & assumptions above

Edit 2 Notes: Screw Pest, recasting IT/PS does in fact result in a higher DPS cycle! Now, just need to undo all of the hacking I did to my sheet (Death runes don't work so I had to manually re-assign the rune cost to B from F and U for Death Rune IT/PS :-/). And yes, Razorice is about 1% better than Fallen Crusader so it's in, FC is out. YMMV, higher Str may benefit more from FC, etc. etc.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Grigori

OB has better gear progression scaling than HB does, but HB has better AP scaling than OB does for virtually all specs where the comparison is likely to apply. For 21/50/0 fully boss buffed/debuffed in typical ilvl-213 setup with OB glyph and 2-piece bonus (about as stacked in OB's favor as you can get), the AP scaling for OB is something like 0.463 to 0.555 for HB if I remember correctly (this is counting crits for both, pre-KM, despite OB critting ~30% higher and at x2.45 instead of x2.225). If you model KM at +16% crit for your rotation, AP scaling for HB goes up to something like 0.631. Having Impurity will up that scaling by 25%. HB can easily average higher damage than OB for 0/44/27 builds, but loses 10 RP from 4-piece and shares cooldown with Rime procs.

Gear progression scaling is where the conventional wisdom of "OB scales better than HB" applies. Analysis of ilvl scaling in WotLK shows that it is on a (fairly flat) logarithmic curve. The curve is flat enough that it can be approximated with good accuracy linearly over the expected lifespan of WotLK. The linear approximation is something like 1 dps on 2H per 28 stat points. However, analysis of epic gear shows that you can expect only about 10 of every 28 stat points to be "scarlet-ruby-red." When you multiply DPS by weapon speed (weapon DPS damage is not normalized), you can see that OB scales significantly better than HB does to gear progression, because HB doesn't scale to weapon DPS at all. However, AP/Str from raid buffs (and from elsewhere) favors HB, not OB.

Unholy Presence 0/44/27 is about on the level with Unholy Presence 21/50/0 in 3.09 (higher with 100% ghoul uptime and proper itemization on the shorter fights) and easily beats Blood Presence 21/50/0, albeit it is much less popular because intuitively it just looks inferior.

The problem with non-perma ghoul is that it tends to miss out on a lot of raid buffs. Perma-ghouls in 0/44/27 are capable of around 1k DPS over short Patchwerk in Unholy Presence (ludicrous gain from Bloodlust); 21/50/0 ghouls are lucky to do 1/3 that when they are up.

4xPS+6/7xIT Unholy Presence 0/44/27 rotations have symmetrical rune usage and do not need to itemize for the Expertise cap to run smoothly (which is a significant advantage because Expertise is a "red" stat and is low-yield because IT and FS cannot be dodged).

0/44/27 only needs 16 hit rating over the melee yellow hit cap to cap spell hit (for Horde, that is, you need slightly more with a Draenei). The dodgeable portions of the rotation are low-yield and skippable without significant impact to DPS (especially if you use the BT bug and run PE+3xIT with your Blood runes).

It also has a major slot for the ghoul glyph (over OB), which dramatically improves the ghoul's survivability (the glyph raises the ghoul's survivability footprint to melee toon levels, shifting it from dying gradually to staying alive from melee heals). Played properly, you can count the number of bosses where your ghoul cannot survive on half a hand.

- - -

ITx2 generates 20 more RP than OB with 4-piece does, that is 62.5% of a FS, and Freezing Fog adds over-rotation-average damage in Blood Presence, but adds raw damage in Unholy Presence. ITs also have a higher base-damage multiplier than OBs do with full buffs/debuffs (for "sigil scaling," among other things, which is why Sigil of Frozen Conscience has been nerfed by so much on PTR).

Blood Presence OB spam builds are inferior to Unholy Presence IT spam builds even with a Betrayer (it only scales to weapon DPS very slightly better to begin with anyway, because the extra RP from ITs also scales to weapon DPS). AP/Str from gear favors non-strikes, so the strike scaling advantage essentially ends with the highest DPS*Spd weapon (the scaling difference between the two for other relevant stats are magnitudes below that of AP/Str). In other words, for now, it is spell over strike.

 

Khaosknight

Well... 3.1, here is my planned spec/rotation:

spec : 0 -46-25
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9614
Glyphs: FS,Ghoul,IT

The key point in the spec is to get Impurity and ghoul, previously you couldn't get both and still get the deep frost goodies, making it worthless to go for 1 or the other. With raise read's now reduced cooldown, your ghoul can still stay up most of the time.

Rotation:
HoW right beforehand (or during the 19-20sec space of down time every time after)

PS IT PS IT BS BS < 90 RP, 100 with HoW beforehand = 3xFS>

PS IT PS IT IT IT < 120 RP, + 4 from beforehand, 3xFS>

I did a bunch of math earlier, lost it in a power outage, probably will re do later, not right now though. However, this spec can probably be expected to pump out at least as much DPS as the old 21-50-0 6xIT spec, perhaps more with impurity, perhaps alot more with ghoul, necrosis and BCB, as well as the new and improved Plague strike. The reason I made this the rotation as opposed to an Ob heavy rotation is because we won't be wearing 4xt7 in ulduar, which pretty much makes or breaks a ob heavy rotation at the moment, since IT is so much RP per Rune.

To answer future questions:

You use unholy presence, this + a perma ghoul + a good group = 800-1200 DPS from the ghoul alone, easily. It scales retardedly well.

Also, UA buff is pretty awesome, it basically equals a (25% every 1 minute for 20 seconds = 25/5 = 5% str increase) and since it doesn't consume a rune, it's even more awesome. Question for testing is, does it generate a GCD? If not I'd just make a macro tying it to plague strike, which is the first move of all of my rotations.

 

michaelf77

Would not it be 25/3 = 8.33% ?

 

Dread

On PTR it consumes a rune, forgot which one but it does.. might be intended or not we have yet to see.
I'd say its still worth using every cooldown though with the specc you have. A specc (well a similar one) to what i tested on PTR extensively yesterday with some adjustments.
Glyph of Plague Strike instead of Frost Strike + IT and Ghoul glyphs. I have yet to test IT vs FS glyphs but i get the feeling IT is superior. If you dont have PS glyph your PS will go back to being the old crap.
Not done the math Tundra Stalker vs Impurity or even if 3/5 3/5 is better than 1/5 5/5 on either on them.. The testing i did wasn't conclusive enough for that. Plus they probably scale differently in raid

If anyone could point me to info on Impurity vs Tundra in raids i'd appreciate it.. i know i read something about it a long time ago. Also pondering Blood-Caked vs Necrosis.. couldn't test that on dummy either.

I was using Death's Bite and had Ebon Plague + Crypt Fever when testing provided by another DK and got up to 4k dps on the dummy in Unholy Presence.
Rotation is "under construction" but pretty much just prio Icy Touch then Plague Strike and last Blood Strikes. And use Frost Strike over any other ability when Runic Power starts getting high.
Also want to note that this specc is the one that me and my companion managed to squeeze out the most dps from, followed by 17/0/54

Here's the talents/glyphs used: 0/46/25

 

Mild Confusion

UA costing a rune isn't that big of a deal really, it just means we keep using our BT macro.

Would the IT glyph really be better than the FS glyph? 10 rp (provided we do IT every rotation) doesn't seem like much compared to 8 rp off of FS. Given in one rotation, you can do a minimum of 3 FS, that is 24 rp saved vs 10 rp gained.

Here's a question though, do you think 1 unholy blight every other rotation is more dps (single target) than the 1 frost strike?

As for TS vs Impurity, I am curious about that as well. I guess it depends on if it scales with FS. If not, then it's only a boost for IT, diseases, and unholy blight. Oblit and BS would gain more from TS.

 

Tepesh

Only "spells" benefit from Impurity. Everything which uses weapondmg to calculate its dmg is not gaining anything from it.

 

Mild Confusion

To me then, it should be obvious that 10% damage from TS would be more powerful than 25% more spell damage from AP then. Especially considering how much strike damage a frost knight does.

 

marvis

Aren't that 80 RP in the first "Rotation"?

PS | IT | PS | IT | BS | BS |
10 | 30 | 40 | 60 | 70 | 80| 90 <- with HoW

/edit: ok sry, with chill of the grave there are 90 RP and with HoW 100 RP at the beginning of the fight.

 

EwokChilli

Well, if we take the HB glyph, then you could try something like PS HB BS OB which is quite similar to our old rotation except it applies both diseases. Would get to use HB/OB/FS glyphs. Don't know if 9% crit to OB or 45% more PS damage would end up being better in the long run though. Have to choose between 3/3 Outbreak and 3/3 Subversion. With this rotation, you can just RP dump like normal afterwards because HB will probably eat most of your KM procs that are in the middle of your rotation. Although, the new ITx6 rotation in unholy could have some promise.

 

Khamoz

I'm an old school dwer. Dw is toast so I've switched to 2h frost. Current spec: 0/51/20 with perma ghoul.

Razorice on the 2h for the 10% debuff to frost dmg. 2h wep: Jawbone. Glyphs: IT, PS, Ghoul

Rotation: IT>PS>HB>BS>BS>FS dump -- HB>IT>PS>IT>IT> Blood tap/UA macro (once per minute- rougly every 4th rotation or so)>fs dump -- HB>IT>PS>BS>BS>FS dump --- continue on.

I saw a consistent 3300-3600 dps to the ebon hold dummy (although I know it doesn't apply to certain raid situations). I used oblit to stay ahead on the rotation if I procced rime, but that was it.

2h frost is the new dps spec of choice. I can't imagine that 17/0/54 would do more, but I will test it tonight (I xferred with enough glyphs to test every possible spec).

I'm probably changing out the PS glyph for FS, as FS is appearing to be the mainstay of damage/time now. I'll post links to screenshots outlining each spec and damage average say over 5 tests @ 6 mins per.

 

Lollersk8er

Except that dummy tests are never comparable due to raidbuffs. Also your ghoul will die from aoe damage.

 

EwokChilli

I wonder if DW is really dead. It can still get KM if it goes 0/20/51. The new unholy presence and the improvements on plague strike seem to play into their hands. As for BcB, whatever, it was 2-3% of their dps. Also, Garg was rebuffed (but moved). They added in Glyphs that seem quite strong for DW too (DC glyph, UB glyph). I think DW can be quite successful still.

 

Marloc

I severely do hope your dummy was not below 35%.


0 20 51 works just fine, people still seem to be living in the world where DW > 2H.

Its stated that DW is an option, not mandatory for raiding.

 

Khamoz

I completely agree with this. However using a 0/31/40 build as dual wield I would cap off at 2900 or so dps on the same dummy (without gargoyle). If the ghoul dies due to AoE damage I can always summon another. It dies to void zones and flame walls already anyway.

 

Khamoz

I tested this on the same dummy in the same day using the same standard but using an IT spam rotation. I couldn't get over 2700 dps using everything at my disposal that I could.

Also I'll do my testing on the silvermoon or undercity boss dummies to get 'realistic' numbers.