EwokChilli

Well, they essentially reduced OB by 7.5% (from 100% to 80%+12.5%) but added 15% to FS (actually more because of the changes to black ice/glacier rot).

 

Athyr

Actually it's 80% increased 12.5% per disease. Assuming Frost fever and blood plague that's 80% increased by 25%. .80*1.25 = 1.00.

It's the same OB as long as you use IT and PS which is what they want to encourage rather than doing diseaseless or skipping PS. If you use IT alone, it ends up being .80*1.125 = .90 or a 10% decrease. So, yeah if we stick to our current rotation it is a nerf to OB but it's still up in the air whether PS-less remains the ideal rotation or including it comes out to be better.

My inclination is to use
IT PS OB BS BS
OB OB OB
since the DPS loss of including PS seems to be made up for by having 100% power Ob * 4 rather than any other use of Ob that is only 90% effective

 

cruisi

Hey Tepesh, we know us from the german wow-board. I'm inscipter and I have used my 20h-cd to get a new glyph, but I didn't got any. So there is no new glyph implementet, yet.

 

Travaggie

175
The main reason that the above quoted rotation with blood plague is still going to be worse in my opinion is the difference in runic power gained. With the above rotation you're generating 175 RP so you can get 5x FS in the length of it, and its a little clumsy with 2x FS the first half, 3x IT the second and then every other full rotation having enough for a 6th frost strike occasionally.

With the basic IT>OB>OB>BS rotation you're generating 2 RP shy of 6x FS every rotation, but assuming you either have Butchery or manage your HoW/BT effectively you'll be generating plenty to keep a smooth rotation indefinitely.

 

EwokChilli

Also depends if you spec into blood or unholy. If you spec into unholy and get epidemic then you can do the IT PS rotation but if you're in blood, then your diseases will start to fall off through the 2nd part of the rotation and FS won't benefit from glacial rot.

 

Feorthas

You *could* go double disease but, interestingly enough, that doesn't match an IT only cycle.

Additionally, from what I've heard, Glyph of OB is adding 25% in 3.1, bringing a 1D, Glyphed OB to 117.5%{W}, which is only 2.5% down from current levels and not worth changing rotations over when Frost Strike will become the new focus of the rotation. Even if it provides only an additional 20%, as it does currently, a 7.5% decrease in Oblit damage is probably still acceptable.

Finally, we can't assume 4T7 any longer when mathing rotations :-/. PS-less nets 150RP/20s, IT/PS nets 135RP/20s; there is not much of a chance that the bonus damage, minus the loss of swapping from 2IT to IT/PS, plus the extra disease counters the loss of about half of a Frost Strike.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Tepesh

never mind, have to do some further testing...

 

Mild Confusion

I've never seen people talk about Bandit's Insignia in this thread, so I thought I would mention what I discovered today while playing around with it.

It looks like it scales with both Blood Presence and Tundra Stalker. I noticed on recount that it was hitting for 3500 (max) hit and 5500 (max) crit. I then proceeded to do some dps in unholy presence, and the average damage dropped, but still roughly 10% higher than the tooltip.

Unfortunatly, it does not appear to crit double damage like DK's spells do, only 1.5 it seems like normal spells.

I find it interesting cause I did not realize that on-hit damage effects scale with DK damage increasing abilities and talents.

 

Feorthas

I am quite the retard and should've seen it sooner; free damage for all!

Gear: Assuming basically my gear (2T7 but not 4!) and raidbuffing.
New Spec: 13/51/7 (3/5 Bladed Armor & Crit talents with 2/2 Epidemic)
New Cycle: Nets +Lots of DPS from live (~10%)

IT BS FS OB OB FS | PS BS FS OB OB FS

Can use a GCD between halves to dump an extra FS or HB (Rime) or use one at the end but the bonus here is that this will feel rediculously familiar to anyone who's already running a Frost build.

Even better, a 4/51/17 (Subversion + 1/2 Butchery with Ghoul Pet) gets pretty much the same AVERAGE damage output (so if a ghoul can survive 55% (or so) of fights or better, it's a small DPS bump.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Tepesh

Glyph of OB is still +20% on the ptr.

And whatever i try, i can't get any results with the "old" 21/50/0 with ths PS-less rota that come even close to everything i tried with two diseases...

Next i'll try your idea with PS and IT taking turns, that seems to be a pretty nice idea, but i still dont think the perma ghoul will be a big advantage...

 

Feyda

Won't quite work in that order because your IT and PS will preferential use your F and U runes before the D rune.

I've been using:

OB FS OB FS IT BS FS --> OB FS OB FS PS BS FS

Works like a charm. I have shift-macros that substitute either IT or PS for UA since I suck at managing to use a BT/UA macro without it messing up my rune CDs. Why can't they just make UA cost no runes or even use RP? Sigh...

 

Feorthas

Bah. Had a nice reply all types out and then safari crashed and ate it :-/.

Short version:

It doesn't horribly matter what rune the IT/PS uses, as long as a D is active for an OB, but I also prefer to keep IT/PS on the D if I can.

---------

To all posters: let's move the discussion to the new thread as it has the very basics required to play Frost up and ready; if anything notable (and not moderately obvious) is missing, please say so in the thread and I will endevour to get it into the appropriate informational post asap.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Grigori

IT>BS>fs>OB>OB>fs
PS>BS>fs>OB>OB>fs

It makes a significant difference whether your runes flip so that your first OB uses Death rune instead of Frost rune in that rotation. If your first OB uses Death rune, your Blood rune won't be up in time for your second BS, which significantly impacts the rotation DPS (pushback of ~1 sec per half rotation minimum, which lengthens the rotation by ~10%). The same goes for your third OB using Death rune instead of Unholy Rune and your first BS (you do not have enough RP to insert a third FS to both halves of the rotation).

OB>fs>OB>fs>IT>BS(>fs)
OB>fs>OB>fs>PS>BS>fs

Cross-rune use (as in IT>BS mirroring PS>BS above) carries with it a DPS penalty observable in practice for 13-GCD rotations by limiting your rotation latency leeway to one half of the rotation (specifically, it makes the theoretical distance between one Blood rune use on the "short" half of the rotation from its "long" half counterpart 7.5 sec).

You can avoid this DPS penalty by flipping the order of PS and BS on the second half of the rotation. This carries a very slight risk of Unholy/Death rune order flip on the PS for a (correctable) DPS loss, but the gain is well worth the tiny risk. Of course, if your latency is consistently high (1+ sec per rotation), you may not see much of a gain (if not for UA).

Your BT/UA macro trouble is a side effect of the cross-rune use in your rotation. Since you are already using your 2-sec rune cooldown leeway for the cross-rune use, the leeway is not available to absorb the BT/UA macro GCD insertion and the insertion will always result in your rune set desynching (whether you suck at managing the macro use or not).

If you flip the order of your PS and BS, the 2-sec rune cooldown leeway will absorb the additional GCD from the BT/UA macro and your rune set will stay synched. However, with a standard BT/UA macro, you will want to pop the macro right after the IT, as popping it right after the PS carries a signficant risk of a Frost/Death rune order flip in the "fixed" (BS>PS) rotation.

You can essentially cut out all these rune-flipping risks by moving the FSs following the first/third OB to the end of the rotation, but of course that comes at the cost of superior KM proc spacing.

 

EwokChilli

From personal preference, I never had a problem with OB OB FS (BS IT) FS FS. Also, with a hasted 2h, you're prolly not going to get more than 1 KM proc every 3 seconds, so might as well space them out every 2 GCDs (hence why I only put one after the double OB).

This is all just personal preference though, so take it with a grain of salt (or a salt shaker, whatever works for you).

 

Grigori

The KM lead time for your FS on OB>OB>fs is 4.5 sec, not 3 sec. OB>fs>OB>fs has 3 sec KM lead time.

OB>OB>fs>BS>IT>fs>fs
OB>OB>fs>BS>IT>fs>fs

The classic OBx4+ITx2 is very different from the OBx4+IT+PS listed. IT+PS generates less RP, so about half the time the rotation is 13-GCD long, where keeping rune timing symmetrical will take some time off the rotation if your latency is good. ITx2 is 14-GCD long, which means it has no latency leeway to begin with, so not being able to share the latency leeway between the two halves won't make any difference (until you pop BT/UA, that is).

Note also that the UA should be popped on the "long" half of the PS+IT rotation.

OB>fs>OB>fs>IT[>UAmacro]>BS>fs
OB>fs>OB>fs>BS>PS(>fs)

Where you place the FS in this case is a matter of risk versus reward.

 

Direheart

Would anyone happen to know if there's a problem with the glyph of FS on the live servers? For 2 days now, doing dummy testing, I am unable to cast FS with anything below 30 RP. Or perhaps it's not the glyph but there's another bug/explanation for this?

 

NeuronRider

I'm guessing your estimate of "below 30" is more precisely anything below 32? Or it's a typo?
I haven't tried it in a bit here, so I don't know it's Live status, but the glyphed cost should be 32.

 

Direheart

Duh. Having a really retarded day. Thanks, and sorry for the idiotic question.

 

AlucardVampires

Razorice Doubles your KM procs cause when it procs, it can proc off KM also. Its a bug.

 

Mild Confusion

Death Knight (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)
Frost

Howling Blast damage has been doubled (from 259-281 to 518-562 for max rank), cooldown changed from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
Frost Presence now reduces spell damage taken by 10%. (Down from 15%)
Guile of Gorefiend now increases damage done by your Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast and Obliterate abilities by 5/10/15%. (Old - Critical damage only, 15/30/45%)
Lichborne doesn't increase the chance of your enemies to miss you anymore.
Blood

Dancing Rune Weapon now lasts 20 sec (up from 10sec) and last 2 (up from 1 sec) sec per 5 additional runic power but attacks for ?% reduced damage.
Will of the Necropolis now cannot occur more often than once every 15 sec.
Might of Mograine now increase all damage done by your Blood Boil, Blood Strike, Death Strike, Heart Strike, and Obliterate abilities by 3/7/10%. (Old - Critical damage only, 10/20/30%)
Vampiric Blood cooldown has been increased from 1 min to 2 min.
Blade Barrier now decrease damage taken by 1/2/3/4/5% for 10 sec.
Unholy

Bone Shield cooldown has been increased from 1min to 2min.
Ghoul Frenzy cooldown has been removed.
Blood-Caked Blade proc limitation has been removed. (Old - This effect cannot occur more often than once every 3 sec.)
Outbreak now Increases the damage of Plague Strike by 10/20/30% (Down from 15/30/45%) and Scourge Strike by 7/13/20%. (Down from 10/20/30%)
Necrosis now affects all your auto attacks. (Old - Only Main-Hand)

Latest PTR builds. The increased Howling Blast damage suggests that rime procs may turn into a significant source of damage instead of something that I sometimes do if I have a spare GCD, guess testing will tell.

However, the biggest suprise is the Guile of Gorefiend change. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this suggests that crit is going to lose even more value that before, and with the Unbreakable Armor dps buff, the stat value of pure strength is going to go through the roof.

 

trojangoat

So considering what you've just said about HB Would 20/51/0 would be considered an option ?

 

Hidden

The GoG change is also quite a big nerf for Frost raiding, in my gear I was sitting at ~70% crit for both OB and FS on the PTR.
Pre-change: 0.3*1+0.7*2.45=2.015
Post-change: 0.3*1.15+0.7*2.3=1.955
That's a 3% total damage nerf for me, probably a bit less when they fix Razorice proccing KM but the talent is balanced around a 50% crit chance, so you'll always see a damage loss as frost.

 

Feorthas

Move the discussion to the new thread please; there's no reason to make a new frost thread when the old one continues to get used.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Ogun Nagoura

So in response to OP's question, with the recent patch what would you consider to be the best Frost Duel Weild DPS spec?