While I'm in no position to say for certain whether [Last Laugh] is or is not the best in slot for DW, there are a few things to keep in mind. First, while Last Laugh will have superior DPS and comparable ap/hit to most other 1H weapons, it will lack other stats (crit, expertise, armor pen, haste) where it has invested ilvl in defensive stats(defense, parry, and extra stam, in this case). Since white/weapon damage is such a small part of a DK's DPS when compared to other melee classes, it further "devalues" it. Finally, you probably want a slow MH nowadays for extra strike damage since you lose nothing in terms of KM/BCB/Necrosis, which further devalues Last Laugh because in the OH slot it's high dps is only worth 65%, while still offering sub-par stats.

Again, I'm not trying to say Last laugh is bad... I'm just trying to point out there's a lot to think about when determining how good it is when compared to items like [Hailstorm], [Split Greathammer], [Silent Crusader], or [Widow's Fury].

Going back a few posts, are we saying [The Jawbone] does more damage than [Death's Bite]?

I use the Jawbone currently and enjoy it. However, the Bite is far more flexible because of its hit. Getting Death's Bite would allow a Jewelcrafter, like myself, to replace any +27 hit gems with +27 strength gems. It may also free up whatever hit enchants you may have used.

Death's Bite is just very, very good.

Do not forget a ton of DKs out there are orcs

This is incorrect. BCB still favors fast weapons because all weapons get a normalized contribution from AP, even though fast weapons hit much more often. The difference pretty much negates any benefit from strike damage, as Plague Strike and Blood Strike are a tiny fraction of DW DPS. Weapon speed is pretty much irrelevant for your mainhand, fast is preferred for offhand.

Thanks Tzenes for the thread, weapon speed is indeed an important aspect when considering weapon upgrades. What I'll try to do here is combine Methods numbers for different stats coef with average base damage of end game weapons to sketch an approximate list of 2 handers (from best to poorest) for dps dks. Obviously, getting the exact result (exact value of each weapon translated in AP) requires a perfect model for dpsDK which does not exist at the moment (while people of Rawr are working on it). My point is that it may be possible to get the EXACT list for 2h weapons without having an exact model for dpsDk.

First of all, here is the list according to loot rank and using Methods numbers (after hit cap, before exp cap, without ghoul considerations) : (abd = average base damage)

1. Betrayer of humanity 222.9dps- 758abd - 1811.788
2. Inevitable Defeat - 203.7dps - 692.5abd - 1770.244
3. Jawbone 203.6dps- 733abd - 1724.662
4. Death's Bite 203.7- 692.5 - 1686.456
5. Armageddon 203.7- 692.5 - 1657.024
6. Cryptfiend's Bite 203.6dps- 733abd - 1633.932
7. Black Ice 203.7- 713abd - 1610.696

I'll now find a lower bound for dps increase due to an average damage increase x. I'll do it for the unholy spec 17/0/54 , it should then be a lower bound for all dk specs since it was often stated that the unholy spec is the less dependent on base weapon damage. To find this lower bound, let me consider the usual rotation

PS > IT > SS > BS > BS > RP dump
SS > SS > SS (with RP dump when necessary)

over 18 sec. I'm then obviously forgetting about SS glyph. Let me also forget about ALL talents/presence/T7/etc and even consider that none of our attacks can CRIT (I'm forgetting about any damage boost in fact). You may think I'm putting too much aside, but wait to see the result before yelling at me .

Here is then a 1st approximation to the formula accounting for our dps increase due to an average base damage x_{1,2} for weapons {1,2} :

dps_increase = x_2 * (#_White_Swings+PS_percentage+4*SS_percentage+2*BS_percentage)/18

-x_1 * (#_White_Swings+PS_percentage+4*SS_percentage+2*BS_percentage)/18

[top] x_2/Weapon_speed_2 - x_1/Weapon_speed_1 + (x_2-x_1)*(4.7/18).

If you go back to the list above you'll see that abd_difference

20.5 or 40.5 if you seek the abd difference between 3.4,3.5 and 3.6 weapon speeds for all the 203dps weapons of the game. This result in the lower bounds for dps increase

dps_increase = 5.39 from 3.4 to 3.5 weapon speed

14.43 from 3.4 to 3.6 weapon speed

33.75 from 3.4 to Betrayer of humanity.

In other words, if I am not mistaken, those are the minimal dps increase you'll get for any dps dk spec using a two hander. Now, to adjust our weapon list with this knowledge, I'll use Methods ratio 1 dps = 6.32AP to put

+34.06 to 3.5 weapon speed weapons
+91.20 to 3.6 weapon speed weapons in the list
+213.3 to betrayer of humanity.

The new list is :

1. Betrayer of humanity 222.9dps- 758abd - 2025.09
2. Jawbone 203.6dps- 733abd - 1815.86
3. Inevitable Defeat - 203.7dps - 692.5abd - 1770.244
4. Cryptfiend's Bite 203.6dps- 733abd - 1725.13
5. Death's Bite 203.7- 692.5 - 1686.456
6. Armageddon 203.7- 692.5 - 1657.024
7. Black Ice 203.7- 713abd - 1645.03.

I found those results already quite shocking. Note also that since my numbers should be a lower bound on the dps increase, it would mean that with the true values, the slower weapons would still go up in the list.

Noticeable changes from new list :

1. Jawbone goes second by a fair margin (which would grow with the true values)

2. Cryptfiend's Bite goes over Death's Bite.

Another note, any dwarf/human/orc not exp cap should adjust the values consequently. For example, Death's Bite and Inevitable Defeat are almost on the same lvl for an orc not exp cap.

Oh, and last remark, I think that if we had the crit chance/talents/all damage modifiers in the calulus the dps_increases I have stated would still go up by about 50% (something like this I think).

I would be happy to get feedbacks on this. I feel this list is different than everything I saw before and different from what Rawr is suggesting also. I hope nothing is wrong and that it will help people choose between weapons.

N.B. : Just realized I used Methods numbers for the unholy spec, did not check what exactly would be the difference if I had took other spec values.

Only thing is that, why would you assume hit cap but not exp cap? I take into account the hit on my weapon when i'm gemming, so i don't think you should assume that the hit on weapons is worth 0, it undervalues the stats on Death's Bite by a large margin. If you need 62 less hit from gems, that's 62 more strength, so you could debate that Death's Bite has 173 strength on it, but no hit.

Overall, it was very useful to see that slower weapons do work out better and I can only assume more so for 2h frost and blood (higher # of strikes).

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I was wondering if anyone has done any modeling with regards to weapon damage (higher ilvls than we have now, assume 10% increase in stats every jump or 13 ilvls) and when certain specs will overtake others?

It's been stated a number of times that 2H frost will eventually overtake the other specs, specifically unholy because of how well Obliterate and Frost Strike scale. However currently with a Betrayer of Humanity Unholy still comes out on top for the most part.

Correct me if I'm wrong but speed is only important for strike damage in that slower weapons have higher end damage than faster weapons to maintain the same DPS. The strike damage is based on the weapon damage not the speed per se. LL has higher damage than any of the other weapons you linked. It's speed is irrelevant in that context. That is had both higher weapon damage and faster speed is reflected in its higher DPS and makes it superior to the other weapons linked. Your strikes will hit harder with LL than with the others

You are right but you overlooked [Silent Crusader] which has 509 Top end Damage or more important 391,5 AVG Dmg opposed to 357 Top End/274,5 AVG from [Last Laugh]

Hello there, i was wondering about what will increase Obli more, so i made sheet with some calculations.

according to my stats: Claymore of the Ancient Power, 3,2k ap (after unequipping items with procs, sigils etc etc etc) my Obli (without diseases should hit for average (no diseases):

normal (glyphed): {[186.6*3.5+(3.3*3200/14)]+350}*1,2 = 2108.86
crit (glyphed, with Guile of Gorefiend): {[186.6*3.5+(3.3*3200/14)]+350}*1,2*2,45 = 5166.71

but in reality i'm hitting for like 1500-1900 normal hits and 3800-4600 crits with this stats, so where is my math wrong?

Armor. You should be hitting for much less, in reality (against an un-sundered dummy). Against an unsundered level 83 mob, multiply your numbers by (1 - (13083 / ((467.5 * 83) + 13083 - 22167.5)) (=~ 0.56). Sunder/faerie fire/apen reduce the two 13083 numbers.

I'm happy for you that you've found an equation that fits your data. For anyone else reading, please realize there's a lot more math between an ability tooltip and the numbers you'll see in combat.