The numbers you get should be within 10% of your actual DPS based on the raiding I've done over the past week and, yes, with the 4th rotation (and a 1ppm / 15s proc/duration) Fallen Crusader seriously has a minimum uptime of ~48-49%; it's pretty awesome.
I'm not frost so I didnt check that one, but I did check the other two. You both made some amazing work and your effort is def showing and is appriciated.
@dr_AllCOM3: I couldnt figure out how to switch from 2x 1h to 2h.
@tzenes: I think the file is corrupt, or theres something wrong at least, as while opening the file excel says it has issues and asks if I want to try and restore some datal. After that the spreadsheet loads but it seems messed up. Does it suppose to have any sort of "pretty" design (colors, dropdowns etc)?
@tzenes: I think the file is corrupt, or theres something wrong at least, as while opening the file excel says it has issues and asks if I want to try and restore some datal. After that the spreadsheet loads but it seems messed up. Does it suppose to have any sort of "pretty" design (colors, dropdowns etc)?
If memory serves, tzenes only actually supports open office. It's a free download, if you don't mind installing a new program on your computer.
Both of these spreadsheets are very well done, though Dr's is a bit hard to figure out. I'm workin on it though. Would either Dr/Tzenes have any issue with me possibly taking some math for the Rawr module (credit would be given where it's due, of course)? Trying to get Rawr as accurate as possible.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
If memory serves, tzenes only actually supports open office. It's a free download, if you don't mind installing a new program on your computer.
Both of these spreadsheets are very well done, though Dr's is a bit hard to figure out. I'm workin on it though. Would either Dr/Tzenes have any issue with me possibly taking some math for the Rawr module (credit would be given where it's due, of course)? Trying to get Rawr as accurate as possible.
Sure, go right ahead. If you have any questiosn, or if there is anything I can do to help, just let me know
I notice that you have trinket slots, I can see the problem incorporating the ad hoc abilities trinkets can bestow in just a single cell, but was wondering if you had worked around that? Or do you just incorporate the constant values into the normal stats?
@tzenes: I think the file is corrupt, or theres something wrong at least, as while opening the file excel says it has issues and asks if I want to try and restore some datal. After that the spreadsheet loads but it seems messed up. Does it suppose to have any sort of "pretty" design (colors, dropdowns etc)?
I don't currently support 2007 (for reasons I won't go into).
If this is an issue with 2003, please send me a screen shot and let me know what version you are using and I will try to fix it.
The answer to your question is: Yes, it has some "pretty" designs (although not many) and drop downs for items.
The drop downs are broken on some versions and work on others (this has to do with a bug I keep fixing, and then forget to include the fix in the next version).
Originally Posted by Yangguizi
I notice that you have trinket slots, I can see the problem incorporating the ad hoc abilities trinkets can bestow in just a single cell, but was wondering if you had worked around that? Or do you just incorporate the constant values into the normal stats?
If you are asking me (and I'm not sure if you are), the answer is: a little from column A, a little from column B. Most trinkets can be easily modeled as a static number (on use mostly)... others, not so much
Interesting question: how closly are the predicted values to the actual DPS output that people are seeing in raids? I'm seeing output about 10-15% lower than the super-optimal scenarios predicted by my sheet and I'm feeling pretty good about that. How is everyone else doing?
Please note where you notice any major failings as this will help to illustrate where the sheets are performing well, and where they need to be adjusted.
I get very low value for hit rating in your spreadsheet allcom, but it could ve becasue I had 413 hit rating.
I could not see any date for last update on the download page, are you still developing it? Just want to make sure I use the most up-to-date theorycrafting possible.
I've been trying to make a quick spreadsheet of mine own; very basic, very unpretty and specific to my spec. The World of Warcraft Armory
Spec is there, and is relevant because...
Everything I read says certain spells have certain coefficients, but when I use the coefficients in my spreadsheets, my math results are way off from my in-game results.
An example, and one easy to test for anyone, is Frost Fever; It has a coefficient of 5.5% of your attack power.
So if I raise my attack power by 1000, I should get 55 more damage a tic.
When I raise my attack power by 670 through my trinket, I should get I get 36-37 more damage a tick; I actually get 68 more damage.
Now, I do have impurity, which is 125% AP coefficients on spells. So assuming that affects frost fever (don't see why it wouldn't), 0.055*1.25=0.06875.
Again, raise my attack power by 670, I should get 46 more damage a tic. I'm getting an extra 22 damage a tic.
Trying on blood plague (since I have fewer points, I assume, that would affect that) and 670 attack power increases my blood plague damage by 53, or 46*1.15 from being in blood stance.
I wanted to check to see if Crit affects our dot damage like it does for warlocks and spriests now, removing 84 crit rating caused no change at all.
So either wowhead is wrong (which I doubt), or I have something else affecting my spells that I don't understand (which is more likely).
Test done on a level 80 test dummy with 0 buffs on it and myself (including cinderglacier).
Any help on the math here?
Last edited by PhoenixVynna : 01/03/09 at 3:51 PM.
In case any one is interested in a way to calculate Killing Machine, you can use this formula which is very close to ingame data:
Critmodifier is the average modifier through crit
KM is the proc chance of Killing Machine (0.0 to 0.5)
Meleecrit is the melee crit chance (0.0 to 1.0)
AbilityDelay is either the time between the current ability benefitting from KM and the last ability that benefitted from KM or an average delay between abilities consuming the Killing Machine debuff (a PS>IT>BS>BS>HB rotation would have an average delay of 10 seconds/2 abilities=5 seconds) (in seconds)
MHSpeed is the average main hand weapon speed (in seconds)
OHSpeed is the average off hand weapon speed (in seconds)
AbilityCrit is the crit chance of the ability without KM (0.0 to 1.0)
Mod is the crit modifier, this would be (1.0 untalented, 1.45 with GoG)
I'm posting this because most spreadsheets seem to use estimates for Killing Machine.
Edit:
I've just looked through the spreadsheets here, the only one attempting to model KM correctly is Feorthas' spreadsheet but the very last step looks wrong to me. You simply add the uptime for KM mulitplied by the crit damage difference to the total damage.
So if you write the ability damage into one formula, it will look like this:
Damage = NonCritDamage+CritChance*CritDamageDifference+KMChance*CritDamageDifference
Damage = NonCritDamage+CritDamageDifference*(CritChance+KMChance)
So you imply that the crit chance granted by KM is additional to your usual crit chance which is obviously false, actually it'd need to look like this:
As far as I'm concerned, Hidden, that's still an approximation. And not a very clear one... are you trying to add KM to the crit bonus damage? That would certainly give a number (as most spreadsheets tend to do), but I can't wrap my mind around how that could possibly be the right number. It would only apply to the crit bonus damage on white swings to proc it but it depends on the damage of yellow swings for how much you gain... and using an average delay would definitely produce highly skewed results when comparing rotation segments like HB IT IT DC DC to HB DC IT DC IT DC.
Unless I've made a major error somewhere, my spreadsheet should model Killing Machine as accurately as can be. I still have a few major kinks to work out before it's release ready though...
My model is the common sense/brute force/simulation-like approach: for each white swing, calculate the chance of proccing KM; then combine that with the previously calculated chance that KM had already procced (or 0% to start things off), and reset that to zero whenever a FS/HB/IT occurs. Then when calculating the damage of an FS/HB/IT, instead of its normal critrate use (chance of killing machine proc at this time) + (critrate * (1 - chance of killing machine proc at this time)). Of course to do this you have to have a rotation timemap or whatever you want to call it and generally processing stuff starts taking forever, but that's the price you pay for accuracy.
To clarify why I don't think assigning the KM bonus to crit damage rather than crit chance makes any sense at all:
Increasing the damage of your crits causes each percentage chance to crit to be worth more DPS.
Increasing the chance of your crits causes each point of increased damage to be worth more DPS.
Or viewed another way, you could say that crit chance and crit damage have relative diminishing returns (though it's actually increasing returns on the other). Or stated very simply, 100% crit doesn't help much if you crit for 5, and critting for 5 billion percent doesn't mean much if you never crit at all.
Killing machine in actual practice is an increase in chance to crit. By assigning its bonus as increased critical damage, you skew the scaling factors such that crit% looks more valuable than it is and increased crit damage (whether through GoG or AP or metagem or whatever) looks less valuable.
If you actually meant something else by 'average modifier through crit', I'm sorry, but that's what it sounds like, and since you did include the GoG mod in your calculations it seems like you're doing something involving crit damage which really has no place in KM calculation.
I don't add anything to crit modifier. I calculate the crit chance and then multiply the damage according to the calculated crit chance and a given crit modifier. I could've also written down the crit chance calculation which would be:
What I do is calculate the chance that KM is not up and then modify that according to the crit chance, so I'm having 1(=100%) minus the chance that KM is not up AND it doesn't crit.
@your last statement: The formula in my post above is the total crit damage calculation for HB/FS/IT, it's not just the part of "how much crit does KM give you?". I've done this because I made that formula directly for Methods' spreadsheet that doesn't separately calculate the crit chance.
Edit: Now I got it, you're thinking that the crit modifier is the modifier for the damage the abilities do if they crit. That's not what it is, it's the average modifier an ability has through crits. So if IT crits for 50% and you're not specced into GoG, this would be 1.5.
Sorry if I don't always put things into clear words, English isn't my native language.
My formula looks very exact to me with the only assumptions being that the attack speed and melee crit chance are relatively constant.
It's still in pretty early stages, but this is it. Aside from math errors and game mechanic goofs, should have a very precise model of many various things that are rather difficult to approximate. Fully custom rotations, with a few minor caveats I plan on fixing. Not as user friendly as I'd like yet, oh well. Takes AGES to calculate, unfortunately. Contains equivalence point calculator and (EXTREMELY SLOW) calculator to estimate percent DPS contribution from each talent point.
Any and all help and feedback is appreciated, send me a PM.
Edit: Oh, it's an OpenOffice file. Don't try to open it with Excel. :P
Kurokaze, in the DW thread you wrote your way of calculating KM is more exact than mine, that is more or less true because to me it looks like you're not calculating KM but more or less simulating it, which is fine but not something people usually want to include in their spreadsheets, so if they want a way to calculate the KM benefits, the formula I posted above is probably as exact as it can get - it also matches my WWS observations quite well giving a 77.5% crit chance for my IT/HB when I'm seeing crit rates of 75-80% in game.
About your spreadsheet in general:
It looks very exact and the DPS numbers given are definitely in the right region, however I'm finding it quite hard to check your calculations because you're using so many columns and abbreviations. Another thing I noticed is that it's taking years to calculate one single profile, wouldn't if have been easier to simply write a simulator in Java for example if you're already simulating everything? (This is what I was thinking about to do but I haven't found the time yet)
The reason it's a spreadsheet rather than a separate program is partially because it really is much easier to make and partially because I simply don't know how to write a program that works with such huge masses of data as this. The most major reason, however, is because I don't trust my own calculations and I expect that it would be much easier to find others to help validate them for a spreadsheet than if it required programming knowledge. I know that my eyes glaze over whenever I see Python code, even if I could recognize the math behind it, just because it's not a C or basic like syntax. Spreadsheets are more universal... to an extent.
It takes me just about a minute or two to calculate a profile, though, so either there is a huge PC discrepancy or you're exaggerating a bit... it would help me to know which. Now, calculating the talent values does take an hour or three, but that's not something you need to really look at for every gear change. I'm pretty sure I accidentally broke it in R3 anyhow so it doesn't even work in the version you have.
Also, you can use logic to figure out when you need to recalculate; anything that modifies the rotation (haste or adding/removing strike talents or changing weapon speed or procs) requires a recalc, but most stat changes don't.
As I'm using many haste items, I'll have to recalculate after nearly every gear change.
To be honest, I don't even know how long the recalculation took. After a few minutes it was still calculating so I switched to my browser and looked back into the spreadsheet half an hour later.
I've just measured the recalculation time, it's been just over 4 minutes now which is probably quite fine, I'll look into the spreadsheet some more tomorrow.
About it being a spreadsheet:
It's probably a personal preference but I find it much easier to develop a program and spot errors in a program than working with such a complex spreadsheet, assuming the program is well arranged.
I really appreciate your work Kurokaze, but I'm convinced I've done something wrong. I edited 'none' in some of the gear slots to represent my gear, and the DPS number looks ballpark correct for the buffs I have enabled (buffs I typically get in my 10 man group), but the AEP values I get seem a little wild. In particular, it's returning nearly 3.5 for STR and over 1 for haste rating for an UH build. I suspect the culprit is in the pet calculations somewhere. The sim is listing gargoyle strikes far below what I typically see, and ghoul claw crits in excess of 2k, which combined with ghoul strength inheriting talents and glyph of the ghoul could explain the extremely high strength valuation.
Is it possible I made some mistake in editing the gear entries that is causing this behavior?
No, I'd noticed rather large claw numbers as well. Turns out after looking closer on Wowhead, it appears Claw is not normalized. With the ghoul's extremely high attack power relative to weapon damage and fast base weapon speed this cuts its damage estimate in about half.
Best way to add an item is to copy the lower 'None' row then insert a row above it and paste it in, then add stats. You shouldn't particularly break anything by editing it though.
I've fixed many bugs and made many changes since the released version. I'm just going to add a bunch of gear options then I'll post r4.
The high value of haste is due to the gargoyle's haste contribution, which is pretty lacking in supporting test data one way or another. Change D81 under Rotation to 0 for a more traditional number where the gargoyle doesn't inherit haste.
Kuro, would you mind adding Berserking as a selectable off-hand enchant? As Mages may now go back to deep Fire/Arcane this may be an option over Razorice/Cinderglacier.
-Totally Redid the UI; much easier to make sense of.
-Supports a custom rotation out of the box and Black Ice now computes its contribution properly.
-Version available now on Google Docs; poking around for hosting for the xls as it is vastly superior (conditional formatting, etc).
-Accurate vs PTR prior as of the last update (KM is now 1-5 PPM based on talent points).
Accuracy:
-Within +/-10% of actual values for melée friendly fights. Usually within 100 dps (~5%)
Usage:
-Open your character sheet, copy valid values into spreadsheet. Populate the talent and gear flags in a similar manner.
-Custom rotations can be created by entering the abbreviations for the abilities in question in the custom area (Strikes & Direct damage only; not including Pestilence (yet)).
-Do not touch the grey cells; they are where the magic of math happens.
Broken/Not complete:
-Cinderglacier
-Fallen Crusader: Expected Proc Rate & Uptime should be working properly but ~48% is higher than everyone else likes to predict. This is more of a warning than actual broken.
-Stat valuations
-Some buffs (let me know if I missed any and/or if Ferocious Inspiration should have > 75% uptime; counting buffs as improved if there is an option to improve them)
-All pots (don't know if I want to add any as you can typically just add the value to your base stats)
-Not every custom rotation spot likes being blank; some will blow up if they are blank
Incomsistancies:
-Vot3W is the only talent that changes raw stats; the others do not touch your stats if the change is both permanant and visible on your character sheet. Additionally, it only modifies your strength.
-If you want to use a 2/2 rotation but still have RP left over at the end, put the DMP slot at second 19; the sheet will detect that there isn't a dump at the 9 second mark and treat it as if it were there (but properly use all of a 20s rotation's RP) in order to avoid penalizing you for an extra second in your rotation. In the excel version, it very clearly flags the change but it won't be as visible on google docs.
Undocumented Features!
-Plenty, I'm sure. Post bugs in this thread please!
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/09/09 at 2:50 PM.
Reason: Typoes
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
12/09/08, 1:13 PM
