Pyros

The sigil probably makes a difference, but due to GCD capping in blood presence, it seems obvious to me that your rotation would do more than the full HS one. Obvious, but didn't think about it before however ^^. Would that mean that Death runes are useless? I don't see much to spend the points on sadly, but still, sounds pretty good, I'll try it next time I spec blood DPS.

 

Melchior

I think the Death Runes would still be useful for flexibility in terms of throwing stuff like Pestilence or Mark of Blood without needing to blow Blood Tap (though that will be down often to throw an extra HS anyway) should it come up in a weird spot in your rotation. Doesn't seem like it would be a factor in a purely single-target fight, though.

 

matte

I'm using the 51/13/7 spec from the original DPS Compendium with a little bit of a change, instead of the three points in Annihilation, I put them into Imp Rune Tap. The only reason I switched it up is my rotation goes

PS - IT - HS - HS - OB - DC - DC, then PS - IT - HSx4 - DC - DC, and restart. Obviously open to Sudden Death procs, but that's the basic idea. Annihilation is kind of pointless because I'm reapplying diseases after the first round, right?

And I went with Imp Rune Tap because if things go to shit and the healer is busy elsewhere, a Death Strike and Rune Tap and I'm getting back 6k health at a moment's notice.

Am I just doing it wrong and should just go back to my priest?

VV Where am I going in the Unholy tree, then? It looks kind of messy unless I'm going 50 points deep, especially around Tier 2.

 

Melchior

Annihilation prevents Obliterate from removing the diseases, so you don't need to re-apply them after hitting Obliterate, only after they expire naturally.

IMO, if you are not going to go for Annihilation you should move all of the Frost points over to Unholy.

Edit: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Probably something like the above. One floater to either DRW or Gargoyle per your preference; I find the Gargoyle pretty annoying as he likes to fall out of the sky dead sometimes (really needs to be untargetable IMO). Vampiric Blood can also be moved to Rune Tap should you prefer.

 

Faithplusone

Here are my thoughts to the whole Unholy vs blood presence debate.

First of all, I use the 51/13/7 build, cause it's easier to play and I believe it scales better with gear. I use Claymore of ancient power as weapon and in total I have (completely unbuffed) 3320 AP and 27.5% crit. I also use glyph of Icy Touch and Obliterate cause those are must-haves if you're gonna play with unholy presence.

Anyway, when I first started hitting the training dummies I got around 2000 dps (single target) in both blood and unholy without popping any cooldowns except for Blood Tap. But I felt that 2000 dps was way under what I expected. So I started concentrating more and trying different rotations. So after maybe an hour of practicing and alot of focusing I was able to do 2300 dps with Blood Presence under 4 minutes. Pretty good, I told myself and then I tried Unholy presence. Of course, this required an almost completely different rotation than with blood presence so after like 30 minutes of practicing, I managed to do 2600 dps (no exaggeration). Again, I was completely unbuffed and used no cooldowns such as Hysteria and DRW. No, I used only blood tap cause the rotation kinda requires it.

I already knew that Unholy could compete with Blood Presence but I didn't know it could do it this well. Anyway, the thought behind the theory is that while in blood, you can't use every ability and have cooldown on everything and 0 runic power all the time while still having no "downtime" between your special attacks. And that is all because of the long GCD. BUT! That is actually very much possible in Unholy presence if you do everything correctly and keep focus on procs, runes and runic power.

So, what does my rotation look like? Well as I said, it kinda depends on procs and everything, but this is what it looks like

Obliterate > Plague Strike > Icy Touch > Heart Strike > Death Coil/HS (depending on sudden doom) > HS/DC > Blood Tap > HS > DC > DC/HS > HS/DC > Plague strike/DC > Icy Touch > DC and then after that it gets too complicated and you'll have to improvise.

Anyway, the general idea here is to use DC whenever you can. If you get a sudden doom proc - USE IT ASAP. Otherwise, your next HS won't have any chance on proccing (well it'll refresh the duration) and you've not only lost a crit and a free Death Coil, but you'll also have alot more "downtime" (that's what I call it when everything's on cooldown and you can only do auto-attacks).

In Unholy presence using this rotation, DC is 22% of my damage while 28% is Heart Strike and 27% is melee. About 10% is Obliterate and the rest is just dots, icy touch and plague strike (+ bloodworms).


And one more thing, the difference between focusing and not focusing while DPSing is HUGE.

 

Jin

From what has been said in this thread and from playing, I believe the stat priority has been decided to be:

Hit Cap > Expr Cap > STRENGTH

The reason (that I think) for expr cap to be so crucial is that missing/dodging as a DK can totally ruin the rotation. Missing/dodging on a DR with a BS is horrendous, let alone when your last BS will not land on a disease. Hoping to find a list of gear to aim for, I was wondering if anyone could make any amendments to this list of Best in slot gear, and hopefully we could produce the true list.

Due to alliance gaining an extra 1% hit, I believe there could be a few item variations - but comments would be nice!

Helm: [Obsidian Greathelm]
Neck: [Favor of the Dragon Queen]
Shoulders: [Valorous Scourgeborne Shoulderplates]
Back: Horde [Cloak of Mastery] / Alliance [Drape of the Deadly Foe]
Chest: [Breastplate of Frozen Pain]
Wrist: [Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress]
Gloves: [Valorous Scourgeborne Gauntlets]
Waist: [Girdle of Chivalry]
Legs: [Belabored Legplates]
Boots: [Sabatons of Sudden Reprisal]
Rings: [Surge Needle Ring] / [Ruthlessness]
Trinkets: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] (Strength version) / [Fury of the Five Flights]
Weapon: [Betrayer of Humanity]


I believe the helm, wrist and ring to be a great combo as they bring you to 123 rating. I'm unsure about FoFF versus MoT due to popping gargoyle when MoT to be a great DPS bonus and I believe this would be hard to confirm either way? Belt is another issue i'm unsure on, but overall this was the best I could arrive at.

 

Omidin

Heya, I couldnt seem to find any definite info on how much expertise rating I should be aiming for as blood? So far I've only got Zeliek's Gauntlets which put me at 17 Expertise (-4.25% to dodge/parry).

Also, is it possible to get rid of glancing blows nowadays? I dont recall seeing any +weapons kill anywhere in WoTLK.

 

Hyperaktiv

Expertise cap is currently at 6,5% if I am not totally demented.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the expertise cap mentioned at 6,5% is for Boss mobs, not regular mobs @ lvl 80.
Second edit: regarding the matter

 

Daedalix

I have been experimenting with Blood builds lately and noticed that 51/13/7 allowed more leeway in my dps cycles than 50/20 and had other benefits. 51/13/7 allows a more "strategic" approach, which fits into the DK playstyle. We aren't rogues. Our dps "rotations" tend to vary significantly based on the situation.

51/13/7 lets diseases tick longer overall, allows us to use runes more efficiently and quickly and thus lets us build RP faster. There are natural gaps in our rotations and 51/13/7 allows us to distribute those gaps wherever we see fit rather than being stuck primarily at the end of an obliterate or just before. The dps between the two builds is not significantly different but 51/13/7 allows a Blood DK to reach that number more often and with more attention to other things going on, from my experiences. As others have said, it depends on which works best for you, but I think 51/13/7 is simply easier to play, which gives it a leg up.

I also have been rolling with Blood Worms and they have caused absolutely no problems so far. They add a little dps and are better, IMO, than the alternative skills you can get.

Unholy had too many nuisances for me to enjoy the spec (Gargoyle uptime, Desecration, UB's constant aoe), but I fear that it's much more competitive in more situations than Blood is. Hysteria, though, is a very attractive buff that raids are looking for.

The one thing I can't figure out about the 50/20 blood variant is the timing of your first OB and whether you should do it immediately or DC/let your diseases tick. I guess you do it almost immediately so that the timing of your runes is kept up?

 

TheJezus

Just wanted to add something on this. I read through here and hadn't sen anyone else mention it, if this is not the case I apologize. I recently went to DRB since I only need 5 more replacements as far as end level gear is concerned. I think it is fairly well known at this point that DRB scales better w gear but when I was running Gargoyle it wasn't the fact that it was difficult to keep up in regards to RP or that it was short on damage. The main problem I found was that it may die as soon as you pop it. This was certainly the case on Thaddius, Saph etc. Our feral enjoyed saying "Gargoyle down" Just seconds after I had popped it on many occasions. My point is despite it scaling, if you are ever doing a fight with any kind of raid wide damage gargoyle is basically pointless and a waste. Additionally, the fire and forget aspect of DRB is wonderful.

 

kelben

I've been working with the 50/0/20 build based on earlier readings, now I'm wondering about the 51/13/6 build.

My current rotation is broken down in three parts

Starting (only use this to establish my rune cooldowns):

Icy Touch,Plague Strike,Death Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Death Strike,Obliterate,Heart Strike, Heart Strike,Icy Touch,Plague Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Death Strike,Heart Strike,Obliterate

After that I slide into rotation, after hitting Hysteria and Gargoyle... Only DC on sudden doom procs:

Icy Touch,Plague Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Death Strike,Heart Strike,Obliterate,Heart Strike

Once my gargoyle's timer is expired I go into:

Icy Touch,Plague Strike,Death Coil,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Heart Strike,Death Strike,Death Coil,Heart Strike,Death Coil,Obliterate,Heart Strike

I can maintain these cycles forever, swapping back and forth between the 2nd (for gargoyle) and 3rd roations. The cycle is very tight and doesn't allow much room for error.

 

Wynna

After reading everything I could the best rotation I found for 50/0/21 is:

IT -> PS -> HSx2 -> DC -> (wait until there is ~1.5s left on your first frost rune cd) -> OB

and now you can repeat this one forever:

IT -> PS -> HSx6 -> OB, with DCs usually after the 4th HS, but I'm confortable enough to DC whenever I see fit as to not waste Sudden Doom procs or cap my RP and still be able to OB right as the diseases are about to fall off.

 

amaii

Anyone have parses or screenshots of DPS comparisons between 51/13/7 and 50/0/21 // 51/0/20? By adding talents like Necrosis, BCB, and Virulence, does the DPS outweigh being able to add Obliterate into your rotations?

I currently play 51/13/7 and am doing fine with it. However, I see several high-dps players in both variants and both doing well. My only concern is keeping the uptime of Gargoyle. Many bosses (like Malygos for example) go into different modes and cause strain on your ability to a) keep your garg up from damage and b) maintain enough runic power to feed to the gargoyle. Although the total damage the gargoyle dishes out is probably much more than DRW, with DRW you can focus all of your DPS increasing trinkets/abilities into one short moment, alleviating the stress of babysitting the gargoyle.

However, if one spec clearly outdamages the other, I would gladly spec it.

 

kelben

I've been fiddling with the specs and on a target dummy no buffs (including hysteria and HoW) I can break 2300 dps with a 50/0/21 spec, but I can barely hit 1900 dps with a 51/13/6 spec. Whats going wrong here?

 

Daedalix

Hard to say unless you provide us some information, such as a WWS parse, or a rotation or atleast a Recount breakdown. Chances are it's a poor understanding of what to do in 51/13/7 compared to what you're use to with 50/21.

I think I've seen a couple references in this thread but it's become evident that 8% is the actual hit cap on Boss Mobs, for whatever reason. Source: Is Melee Hit Cap Really 9%?. This should probably be updated in the first post or helped to be confirmed in an actual raid environment. Most of the testing thus far has been on Dummies in capital cities. It may also be a bug that's set for a fix as soon as they figure out what happened.

Stay thirsty my friends.

 

Aerenx

Ive definitely gotta see some screenshots of that. Trying the same thing, totally unbuffed, unholy presence, Im not even able to burst above 2300 dps. The World of Warcraft Armory is my gear setup (its showing the wrong spec atm, obviously Im using 51/13/7). 3556 ap, 31.64% crit, using Armageddon.

I'm able to sit at 2280ish dps on the 80 dummy. Base rotation was Oblit - PS - IT - HS /DC- HS /DC - HS /DC - HS /DC repeat, death coiling at any time there was a second or more cooldown on my runes. Unless you were doing something totally drastically different, then I cant see how you did 2600 vs my 2300. Were you on a level 80 regular dummy?

 

Archetype

I've gotten some good upgrades from my last WWS posting showing my newb gear in 10 man Naxx with a 51/0/20 spec. This weekends Naxx run I went back to the 51/13/7 and staying in blood presence. Here is the Patchwerk WWS from this set up.... 10 man Patchwerk WWS . Since I know my gear will not upgrade much at all for the next run after reset. I will be going back to the 51/0/20 spec and post my results with that to hopefully give a decent comparison. Most of the WWS reports and feedback I've been reading so far have been from 25 man, so I hope those that are mostly doing 10 man Naxx (like myself) will get some good insight as well

Basic rotations were the PS>IT>HS>HS>DC(x2 if proc)>OB > blood tap > HS..... then improv from there.

 

gwaust

I'm just now reading through this thread and thought I would post my WWS for my guild's latest Patchwerk kill this week. My name is Corson in the guild and I am a Blood DK specced 51/13/7. I hope this info helps.

Wow Web Stats

**edit**
My main WAS a raiding BM-Hunter if you go by the link my my forum name here, so here is a link to my armory if you'd like to critique. BTW I know my crit is low.

The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Sevyn

Alright so I've been reading through this thread to see what other people have had to say and have found out and wanted to share some thoughts/experiences. I leveled my DK as blood and am currently specced 51/13/7 with the oblit glyph. I'm in like half naxx/half epic badge/half blues. Now from what I've seen from the tons of heroics i've ran on bosses I can usually reach 3k dps very easily with DRW/Hysteria/Trinkets. Now the question is this, has anyone here added pestilence into their rotation on multiple mob pulls/etc? I've been tinkering around with it and it seems to really relieve alot of stress on having to refresh IT / PS on every single target and allows for more Oblits/HS's if your group is fast.

My rotation for this is

IT / PS / Pestilence / HS / Oblit - DC
Oblit / HS / HS / HS / HS - DC

Now usually after that rotation it's either dead or dying and I go to the next target and since they already have the diseases on them I can go right into

Oblit / HS / HS / HS / HS - DC

and by then it's dead because the diseases have been ticking on them since the start of the fight + other dpsers.

I think this rotation is better to use on multiple mobs for the following reasons.

1. Spreads diseases to all targets causing aoe damage.
2. When first target is dead you can skip the weak dot attacks and go straight for the heavy hitting stuff.
3. If you really wanted you could replace some of those hearstrikes with DC's when procs happen so your not
wasting RP

Yes you lose out on that one hearstrike but I think overall you gain more dps then you lose by not having to put
IT and PS on every new target depending on how long it takes your group to kill the trash and the extra dots also
helps.

Anyways would like to get any opinions, thoughts on this.

P.S On single targets I do the normal rotation and do NOT add Pestilence.

 

Samiel

I'm not sure how people are managing this, when I pestilence, it does not renew the duration of diseases on any of the targets, they still run out as normal in the rotation.

More than often, I've pushed through a pestilence as my last heartstrike when a mob is at 1% on multimob fights, only to switch to next target to see the spells drop off almost immediately.

 

Davia

There's a bug where pestilence won't spread diseases if the target dies at the same time, I think. I noticed this happening a lot when I was leveling.

 

zagor

While spreading the diseases on aoe pulls with pestilence is good, using dnd is even better.
I usually dnd right after tanks first aoe threat move, then PS-IT-PEST. Never had any problems with aggro running in unholy presence.

 

Melchior

So, just to clarify, does anyone see a reason why I should not be using the following rotation:

IT -> PS -> Oblit -> HS -> HS -> DC (x)

Oblit -> Oblit -> HS -> HS -> DC (x)


The only thing I can figure is that you will generate fewer Sudden Doom procs, but assuming Blood Presence I don't think it would be a large factor just due to GCDs. There does not seem to be room for more than 2 DCs on each set of runes before you get back to your runes coming up.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

Andread

With the double oblit rotation do we need death rune mastery? If not, is there anything else worthwhile to spend it on?

I have blood worms in my build, so I'm guessing I'd just take some survivability talents.

 

Daedalix

This is essentially the rotation I have been using. I can also sneak in another HS usually before the diseases wear off later on in the rotation. The more OBs the better, especially with T7 gear. From there it's basically prioritized improvisation. OB and HS largely have the same crit benefits, as well. I just have to watch putting diseases up rather than throwing in another OB. With a little more practice, it becomes a clean rotation. Getting the Death Rune talents is a must, there's nothing else in the tree to invest in.

With regards to pestilence, yes, cast it while killing the first mob so you can move to the second mob without having to cast IT/PS and you can use those death runes as HSs or OBs. It also won't go to other targets when a mob is about to die because either A) it has a travel time (similar to Haunt for Warlocks or any other ranged spell) or B) simply because of latency issues. You should not wait till a mob is within 1 hit of dying to cast Pestilence. Try to time it "better" is all I can say.

Stay thirsty my friends.