I did some testing with regards to the blood strike glyph since there seems to be so much assumption and not much fact. Using 5 minute test periods (hardly conclusive but good enough for a quick check) with one using just PS (+1 disease for ease of mathification) vs IT (+1 disease and also melee snare) it was fairly obvious that there's no 20% of anything in there despite people's hopes. At the very least the torment of the weak change was NOT a change in mechanics but rather an individual fix for one talent.
Am I missing something with regards to FFBs multi-debuff or is that pretty much it?
It doesn't work with the Frost Fever debuff but I can personally assure you that the Glyph does indeed benefit from the FFB debuff, Infected Wounds and Desecration.
It doesn't work with the Frost Fever debuff but I can personally assure you that the Glyph does indeed benefit from the FFB debuff, Infected Wounds and Desecration.
I'll post a WWS from my raid tonight.
To the best of my knowledge, it always has done, we were just hoping that a game mechanic change had occurred, rather than a single Mage talent change.
has DRW been updated to include hit rating yet? and if so, is it truely a 100% dps increase for the 20 (22?) seconds it's up? If so, that seems to be quite the skill.
The DRW does seem to copy things like hit and crit and expertise a bit more closely now. However, its strikes don't hit nearly as hard as your own, so it's not a 100% increase.
DRW has also gone live with some annoying bugs. It seems to get hit by certain types of boss damage, debuffs, etc. I didn't notice this until my DRW got a Polarity charge on Thaddius and didn't switch sides with me-- it damaged the whole raid. Looking back over WWS, it also took splash damage on Heigan and a few other fights, though it didn't die-- duration seemed pretty constant at 22 seconds.
The debuff bug seems like an unintended consequence of DRW being able to copy some of your own buffs. I observed DRW copying my trinket (Loatheb's Shadow), Hysteria, Death Trance procs, Unholy Strength procs, Bloody Vengeance stacking up to 3, and so on.
And, of course, as mentioned previously, Obliterate isn't generating runic power, which is an annoying dps loss.
I can get over 3k dps on the training dummy as 51/13/7 (my normal spec) but I have figured that 51/0/20 should be providing me more dps (I am over 4k AP with that spec). The best I can get as 51/0/20 is ~2800DPS, I spent about 40 minutes trying to get the most accurate results.
I did not apply HOW at all during the tests.
Do you think with practice and time 51/0/20 will be a substantial dps increase? Or should I just stick with 51/13/7?
I like the 51/0/20 spec but no point in sticking with it if 51/13/7 will provide me better results.
Also, the best rotation for 51/0/20 is
PS>IT>HS>HS>OB
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DC>HS>HS>OB
correct?
I have seen different rotations and just want to make sure I am using the optimal rotation.
Also, I am putting 5 points in necrosis and only 1 in virulence. Is that bad?
Boldin... i've spiked at 3500 ish on lvl 80 boss target dummy with 51/0/20 today. It's the highest i've ever done self buffed on a dummy before. Rotations used were:
PS>IT>HS>HS>OB>DC (x2 if i get proc)
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DC (x2 if i get proc)
<repeat>
I was using the haunted dream sigil at the time, but I think i might go back to the dark rider...
Boldin... i've spiked at 3500 ish on lvl 80 boss target dummy with 51/0/20
Just for everyone's reference, since I've suspected several comments about dummy dps have used the same reasoning: the highest dps spike you see on recount or whatever meter you use isn't relevant or useful data, in terms of analyzing a spec's potential dps. If I run up and get an Obliterate crit on a dummy and record for one second, hey, I just did 10k dps.
What the spreadsheets try to model and what testing attempts to analyze is damage per second over a long duration. The figure in question is an average damage over time-- a snapshot of that while burning your cooldowns isn't useful, and the number isn't directly comparable to someone else's, or even your own in another spec-- you're creating too many variables. You need to run a long test to smooth out the RNGs and get a better picture of the average damage.
Yeah if anyone can post up some legit 51/0/20 number with the rotation they used it would be nice. Right now as 51/13/7 I am averaging 3250 dps on dummies over a 5 minute timer using the OB favored rotation. And yes these numbers are expected to slightly increase since as many people have said OB is bugged and gives little rp.
Boldin... i've spiked at 3500 ish on lvl 80 boss target dummy with 51/0/20 today. It's the highest i've ever done self buffed on a dummy before. Rotations used were:
PS>IT>HS>HS>OB>DC (x2 if i get proc)
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DC (x2 if i get proc)
<repeat>
I was using the haunted dream sigil at the time, but I think i might go back to the dark rider...
Hope that helps a bit
I'd really like to see your results with DS instead of OB in your rotation.
In your 2nd phase, you could jump straight into 4x HS if you didn't chomp your diseases with OB.
Of course, you would be required to have the DS glyph.
Alright just got the WWS from tonights Naxx clear. Granted there was a fair bit of instance lag that caused a couple wipes and at a couple points absolutely butchered my rotations but overall I'm fairly pleased.
51/0/20
PS - IT - HS - HS - OB - DC
PS - IT - HSx4 - DC Glyph of Blood Strike
Glyph of Obliterate
Glyph of Icy Touch
I would probably switch IT to PS glyphs if Obliterate was actually generating RP, but its not.
Oh and before its asked, I didn't use AoTD on the Patchwerk kill because I blew it on the first pull and then we got a mass disconnect and failed so it was still on CD the second time around.
I proved just yesterday that a no disease rotation with a 51/0/20 would deal more average damage than 51/0/20 using a PS/IT rotation in a raid situation with the correct gear and it also solves the Death rune on PS/IT problem.
Anyhow the no disease rotation increases in value depending on the mobility the fight asks of you as with PS/IT your diseases deal damage even if you're not on your current target.
Considering you PS/IT in almost every disease rotation (1 & 2) putting points in epidemic is a waste of talent points. Over 16 seconds with 5k ap both disease will deal a total of 2800 damage. It's still crap even with epidemic.
Don't take my word for it try it for yourself: No disease 51/0/20 with a
OB>OB>HS>HS
HS>HS>HS>HS>HS>HS
rotation using SD procs in between HS and not at the end of your rotation deals more damage then anything I have tried so far in Blood.
I also know for sure that weaving in SD procs increases damage but doesn't allow you to use DC at the end of your rotation except your 1st rotation but it's still a damage increase.
I'm trying to figure out a way to improve the rotation and only use the OB>OB>HS>HS as a starter and then lengthening the 1st rotation and shortening the second one... but I just can't figure it out.
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
I'm trying to figure out a way to improve the rotation and only use the OB>OB>HS>HS as a starter and then lengthening the 1st rotation and shortening the second one... but I just can't figure it out.
I'll try it out tonight. There's a good chance it'll give better results.
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
Don't take my word for it try it for yourself: No disease 51/0/20 with a
OB>OB>HS>HS
HS>HS>HS>HS>HS>HS
rotation using SD procs in between HS and not at the end of your rotation deals more damage then anything I have tried so far in Blood.
I also know for sure that weaving in SD procs increases damage but doesn't allow you to use DC at the end of your rotation except your 1st rotation but it's still a damage increase.
Using no diseases at all, interesting concept. I have to say I do see some clear advantages of doing this. Not only will it be a better rotation for bosses where you have to move around like you already mentioned, but maybe even more importantly it will make your gear stat scaling (other then strength/attack power) a lot better.
Crit rating and armor penetration will scale better using no diseases since your physical damage will contribute more (and for blood/unholy diseases cannot crit). I recently grabbed the malygos boots (with 84 armor pen) and was already wondering how good the stat is. Might be worth grabbing grim tol with this rotation as well.
Did you theorycraft any stat values for crit and armor pen for 51/0/20 using the no disease rotation?
Also, is virulence worth getting? The only spell we really use with this rotation is death coil and since we almost only use it on SD procs DC cannot miss anyway since it is a guaranteed crit (at least, that is what I understood from the mechanic)
I am going to use this spec for our naxx run tonight and see how it works out for me. Have had a lot of lag there lately though, so results might not be totally dependable.
One other question, is there now consensus that the badge trinket is total crap even for HS heavy rotations compared to the starter zone one? Is there any math on this? Been reading through the post a bit and I have seen some different conclusions on this. For 15 badges I will likely try it myself as well.
I didn't take armor into account but the damage wouldn't be greatly changed. But ArP becomes extremely interesting with a no disease rotation.
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
Copy and paste from a old post for 5x/2x, nothing fancy you start with OB instead of the usual IT PS(from personal experience this works better 95% of the time, try it...its abit odd at first. Most people tend to think LOL I get diseases up faster with icy at ranged…it doesn’t really matter when you clear them with OB and sit on your hands waiting for the runes to refresh)
OB IT PS HS HS DC - start
rotation:
HS HS HS HS OB DC
IT PS HS HS HS HS DC
HS HS OB IT PS DC
Since garg is out and dwr is in, a 51/1/19 is superior for raw damage. The no disease rotation seems interesting for certain fights, although not mashing buttons will take abit getting use to.
I always played blood in WOTLK Beta and live untill I decided to swap for 0/32/39 hybrid DW build a few weeks ago, leaving my titansteel destroyer gathering dust. It really increased my dps (even though I dont really have good weapons). Now with the patch, I was wondering if Blood has gained a lot since yesterday. Does the hearth strike still cleave? To be honest I havent really had time to watch the ptr changes a lot. And I want to be blood specced again because it just fits my play style more.
If blood has increased, what spec is most viable? still the old 50/0/21 or 51/13/7 ?
What sigil should be used? Still the old blue one or the badges one (since it changed to proc crit rating)?
I would really like solid numbers but i can understand if that is not possible at this time.
The debuff bug seems like an unintended consequence of DRW being able to copy some of your own buffs. I observed DRW copying my trinket (Loatheb's Shadow), Hysteria, Death Trance procs, Unholy Strength procs, Bloody Vengeance stacking up to 3, and so on.
Do you pop hysteria/trinket before or after the drw comes out? Never used drw much since garg was way op...heh
So I ran a 51/0/20 build last night. I wasn't too happy with it, but that might just be because I miss my 51/13/7 spec. Unfortunately, I don't think WWS was taken last night in Naxx, but if someone posts it, I will update it here. I did see a very good damage increase when I didn't totally butcher my rotation (so used to my old rotation) so maybe after some time I will settle into the new rotation. I will try 51/13/7 next week to see how my numbers compare.
EDIT: The rotation I was using is:
PS > IT > HS > HS > DC > Oblit
PS > IT > HS > HS > HS > HS > DC > HS > HS > Oblit > DC
Repeat from beginning
Should I get rid of the last two HS at the end of my rotation?
And as far as the no disease rotation goes, if that is the best way to go, that kind of sucks since diseases are a staple of our class design and that's part of what makes us us. /sniffle
Originally Posted by Awaken1
Hi everyone
I always played blood in WOTLK Beta and live untill I decided to swap for 0/32/39 hybrid DW build a few weeks ago, leaving my titansteel destroyer gathering dust. It really increased my dps (even though I dont really have good weapons). Now with the patch, I was wondering if Blood has gained a lot since yesterday. Does the hearth strike still cleave? To be honest I havent really had time to watch the ptr changes a lot. And I want to be blood specced again because it just fits my play style more.
If blood has increased, what spec is most viable? still the old 50/0/21 or 51/13/7 ?
What sigil should be used? Still the old blue one or the badges one (since it changed to proc crit rating)?
I would really like solid numbers but i can understand if that is not possible at this time.
Thanks in Advance!
All of these questions can be answered in the patch notes and the last two pages of this thread.
A 5x/2x is by far the most button mashing spec I played as a dk in pve(if you are not on gcd, something is wrong), it takes awhile to get use to, I would give it a week or 2. Breaks in the rotation, missing a HS, missing a DC or misuse of OB destroys your dps, from armory most of us should be putting up 5k+ on most non ae bosses(25man).
PS > IT > HS > HS > DC > Oblit
PS > IT > HS > HS > HS > HS > DC > HS > HS > Oblit > DC
Repeat from beginning
Someone(I believe it was Xurm) said it in the unholy DPS thread, DK rotations are more like a priority system then a actual rotation, it’s easier/smoother when you think with that mentality(as there will be breaks in the “rotation”).
The best advice I can give is start with OB the rest should fall inline quite naturally, DC when you are on gcd or before you refresh IT/PS. If you want a sample rotation it’s posted above. The first thing I worked on is not missing a single HS in a rotation, that means not clipping the OB(OB is only used to clear disease when there is 1-2seconds left on the diseases, minus the starting OB) with single disease while fitting in all the HS’s, next would be working in extra DCs, finally using hysteria/drw effectively.
Since garg is out and dwr is in, a 51/1/19 is superior for raw damage. The no disease rotation seems interesting for certain fights, although not mashing buttons will take abit getting use to.
What's the 1 point in Frost for?
You're losing either 1/3 BCB - 1/1 Shadow of Death or 1/3 Virulence. And that IS a loss no matter what your 1 point in Frost is.
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
So I ran a 51/0/20 build last night. I wasn't too happy with it, but that might just be because I miss my 51/13/7 spec. Unfortunately, I don't think WWS was taken last night in Naxx, but if someone posts it, I will update it here. I did see a very good damage increase when I didn't totally butcher my rotation (so used to my old rotation) so maybe after some time I will settle into the new rotation. I will try 51/13/7 next week to see how my numbers compare.
EDIT: The rotation I was using is:
PS > IT > HS > HS > DC > Oblit
PS > IT > HS > HS > HS > HS > DC > HS > HS > Oblit > DC
Repeat from beginning
Should I get rid of the last two HS at the end of my rotation?
And as far as the no disease rotation goes, if that is the best way to go, that kind of sucks since diseases are a staple of our class design and that's part of what makes us us. /sniffle
All of these questions can be answered in the patch notes and the last two pages of this thread.
I ran 51/0/20 for the first time last night in naxx 10. Even though I had to tank every fight that required two tanks (I did some in DPS gear) I was #1 in damage done overall in a 2hr 15min naxx clear.
Rotation: OB > IT > PS > HSx6 and repeat. Use DC when there is down time (after you reapply diseases you should have 2-3 seconds to DC before HS and after 4 HS you should have 1-2 seconds for DC) and when you get a SD proc use it immediately.
On fights I didn't have to tank I was #1dps everytime (except for when i screwed the rotation horribly on sartharion )
BTW, I wouldn't have been worth shit without Andoras' help. Big thanks to him
Sadly I got d/ced right before Anub and forgot to start a combatlog again so no WWS
I am really torn between staying this spec or trying DW for the first time (now that I have the weapons for it).
Even though DRW has supposedly an increase in damage to close match its owner, does it feel like to anyone else that it is pretty much doing the same dmg it did before. When i use it it still seems like the dmg is lackluster and I was expecting it to increase a lot more. When my HS crit for around 4k the DRW sont even break 2k hald the time. Is anyone else experiencing similar results?
01/20/09, 11:19 PM
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