Even though DRW has supposedly an increase in damage to close match its owner, does it feel like to anyone else that it is pretty much doing the same dmg it did before. When i use it it still seems like the dmg is lackluster and I was expecting it to increase a lot more. When my HS crit for around 4k the DRW sont even break 2k hald the time. Is anyone else experiencing similar results?
My DRW damage also seems to be about the same post-patch. I'd speculate that this is due to the fact that it no longer summons its own ghoul.
I did some testing with regards to the blood strike glyph since there seems to be so much assumption and not much fact. Using 5 minute test periods (hardly conclusive but good enough for a quick check) with one using just PS (+1 disease for ease of mathification) vs IT (+1 disease and also melee snare) it was fairly obvious that there's no 20% of anything in there despite people's hopes. At the very least the torment of the weak change was NOT a change in mechanics but rather an individual fix for one talent.
Am I missing something with regards to FFBs multi-debuff or is that pretty much it?
Icy Touch is not a snare, it is an attack speed debuff. A snare is a MOVEMENT speed debuff, like frostbolt, the feral disease, chain of ice... You would have to use one of those to properly test it, and I believe it was already tested before.
Icy Touch is not a snare, it is an attack speed debuff. A snare is a MOVEMENT speed debuff, like frostbolt, the feral disease, chain of ice... You would have to use one of those to properly test it, and I believe it was already tested before.
The point of the test was that the Mage talent Torment of the Weak works on "snares" but was changed to encompass attack and casting speed debuffs as well (without changing the wording, if I recall correctly). The question was whether this extended to the Blood Strike Glyph. Now we know it, sadly, does not.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
Even though DRW has supposedly an increase in damage to close match its owner, does it feel like to anyone else that it is pretty much doing the same dmg it did before. When i use it it still seems like the dmg is lackluster and I was expecting it to increase a lot more. When my HS crit for around 4k the DRW sont even break 2k hald the time. Is anyone else experiencing similar results?
My DRW is doing a bit more damage overall. The primary difference seems to be that it copies our hit and expertise more closely-- I only observed a parry when it stood in front of the boss (going to try that macro to fix that). Hitting for about half your own damage is about right, considering it's a cooldown pet that does 2k-3k dps on its own for 22 seconds. It's pretty much in line with gargoyle now, if not better.
The bad part is that DRW is acting like a stupid pet, and doesn't have the kind of immunities that hunter pets do. It's going to limit where it can be used (dear god don't use it on Thaddius), so I hope some kind of fix can come down the line soon.
In regards to the diseaseless rotation-- I can buy it being possible in 51/0/20. However, I think raid buffs might affect this more than you're calculating. In particular, if you have an Unholy DK with you in a raid (which you should in a 25-man), your diseases will do more damage.
On the positive side this patch: AoE damage is definitely improved, though it seemed largely because of the new DnD glyph, actually. Pestilence did nice damage, too, though I think the cleaving Heart Strike ended up being a better use of blood runes most of the time. Also, Blood Aura is actually pretty good now-- my WWS is showing it healing more than Improved LotP over the course of the raid.
I would hope that is it better than the garg, It seems ppl still compare them though and whit one being a 51 pt talent and the other being a 21 pt talent there should be an abvious difference in power. At least that is the opinion that I have. Anyway, thanks for the feed back guess it really wasnt getting buffed as I believed it to be.
Ok i did some tests on the boss dummy in order to compare the dmg with and without diseases.
Gear and spec can be seen in the armory, my results:
51 0 20 with diseases over 10 min fight:
2537 DPS
51 0 20 without diseases over 10 min fight:
2674 DPS
this is with the Obliterate bug generating 0 RP so after that is fixed, the dmg will go up because of more DCs.
The dummy i did the tests on was at 1 HP so Necrosis only did 1 dmg further decreasing the total DPS a little bit.
I did NOT use Empower Runeweapon! Just Hysteria and DRW everytime it was up.
edit:
~ forget about the edit, i was completly wrong ~
Last edited by Tharvos : 01/21/09 at 3:27 PM.
My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.
So I ran a 51/0/20 build last night. I wasn't too happy with it, but that might just be because I miss my 51/13/7 spec. Unfortunately, I don't think WWS was taken last night in Naxx, but if someone posts it, I will update it here. I did see a very good damage increase when I didn't totally butcher my rotation (so used to my old rotation) so maybe after some time I will settle into the new rotation. I will try 51/13/7 next week to see how my numbers compare.
EDIT: The rotation I was using is:
PS > IT > HS > HS > DC > Oblit
PS > IT > HS > HS > HS > HS > DC > HS > HS > Oblit > DC
Repeat from beginning
Should I get rid of the last two HS at the end of my rotation?
And as far as the no disease rotation goes, if that is the best way to go, that kind of sucks since diseases are a staple of our class design and that's part of what makes us us. /sniffle
Here's a WWS. Klingegeist is our resident Unholy DK, he's always been higher than me on DPS, even single target. I'm not too happy with my performance, but as stated, it could just be that I'm not comfortably seated into my new rotation.
Here's a WWS. Klingegeist is our resident Unholy DK, he's always been higher than me on DPS, even single target. I'm not too happy with my performance, but as stated, it could just be that I'm not comfortably seated into my new rotation.
I tried 51/0/20 today because I was unsatisfied with unholy and dw is a joke now.Self buffed with the lvl 80 target dummy over a four minute sample I ended with 3493.3 dps.
*Rotation*
PS>IT>HS>HS>DC>OB
PS>IT>HSx4>DC>OB
I don't know what blizzard has going on in their head but thats rediculous.
Here's a WWS. Klingegeist is our resident Unholy DK, he's always been higher than me on DPS, even single target. I'm not too happy with my performance, but as stated, it could just be that I'm not comfortably seated into my new rotation.
Well honestly, i would possibly redo your unholy side talents a bit. Drop: On a Pale Horse and Epidemic for 3/3 Virulence imo. The rotations used for 51/0/20 make epidemic a waste I've found.
I tried 51/0/20 today because I was unsatisfied with unholy and dw is a joke now.Self buffed with the lvl 80 target dummy over a four minute sample I ended with 3493.3 dps.
*Rotation*
PS>IT>HS>HS>DC>OB
PS>IT>HSx4>DC>OB
I don't know what blizzard has going on in their head but thats rediculous.
I think calling DW a joke now is a pretty hefty overstatement. The loss in dps is marginal, depending on which specific spec you're looking at. DW was balanced with 2h to make them both appealing to players that had a preference on using one or the other to avoid the pre-patch DW pidgeon-hole effect.
Here's a WWS. Klingegeist is our resident Unholy DK, he's always been higher than me on DPS, even single target. I'm not too happy with my performance, but as stated, it could just be that I'm not comfortably seated into my new rotation.
Like I said before, the two specs are supposed to be comparable. ~300dps spread with both players over 3k dps is comparable, I'd say. In that regard I think Blizzard has done a good job adjusting DW to 2h levels. Frankly, I shouldn't be getting 3rd in DPS during (geared) 25 Naxx PUGs that clear wings without problems. I'm way too undergeared to compete, yet I was only passed by 2 other DKs, both 17/0/54 specced (and geared). Now that the adjustment is in, I'm expecting to be a lot lower on Recount, but I'm still in mostly blues, so it's fine by me.
What I'd like to see is a side by side comparison of comparable weapons on Patchwerk. Two epic 1h weapons in a 0/32/39 variation vs. an epic 1h weapon in 51/0/20 or variation. I think they're hard to compare because DW does so much of its damage in AoE, but it'd be interesting to see raw damage outputs regardless.
Like I said before, the two specs are supposed to be comparable. ~300dps spread with both players over 3k dps is comparable, I'd say.
Problem is WWS does not count Ghoul so you need add ~15% more to Unholy guy. Granted Blood use Ghoul too but Unholy one is stronger - it is permanent, it get buffs before encounter, it have now much higher survivability and it can be re summoned instantly when died.
Add to that AotD on half cooldown, excellent aoe damage, two best in-game raid buffs and you can notice Blood simply lagging behind on all aspects sadly.
Using the no disease rotation (OBx2 -> HSx8 while weaving in DCs on SD procs and "empty" periods in the chain) my DPS is much more than it has been usually (51/0/20).
Topping out at 2600-2700DPS on an 80 dummy with no buffs (not even HoW) or cooldowns. I've repeated this twice so it isn't a fluke. This also does not include Necrosis due to the 1HP overkill issue.
Using the no disease rotation (OBx2 -> HSx8 while weaving in DCs on SD procs and "empty" periods in the chain) my DPS is much more than it has been usually (51/0/20).
Topping out at 2600-2700DPS on an 80 dummy with no buffs (not even HoW) or cooldowns. I've repeated this twice so it isn't a fluke. This also does not include Necrosis due to the 1HP overkill issue.
My sheet also likes this rotation (+3 rp dumps). 150-200 DPS more than the standard Blood/Unholy rotation, depending on certain circumstances. Arp is the second best stat and the weapon scaling is almost as good as with 2h Frost. Additionally this rotation is much more flexible and we don't have to care about DRW+Oblit bugs.
Dark Rider is still the best . Blood would be king with an appropriate sigil.
My sheet also likes this rotation (+3 rp dumps). 150-200 DPS more than the standard Blood/Unholy rotation, depending on certain circumstances. Arp is the second best stat and the weapon scaling is almost as good as with 2h Frost. Additionally this rotation is much more flexible and we don't have to care about DRW+Oblit bugs.
Dark Rider is still the best . Blood would be king with an appropriate sigil.
Speaking of zero disease rotations, and your spreadsheet Doc. I plugged in a spec that this build got my thinking about and it gives me some very good numbers it is essentially the reverse of 0 disease blood, 0 disease frost. OB/OB/BS/BS/FSx2.5 OB/OB/OB/FSx3. Build is: 27/44/0
Maybe I did something wrong with altering the spreadsheet, but I think I got it right(turned FF/BP ticks to 0 etc) Basic premise being FS > DC, and going into blood for ap/crit/bloodvengance will maximize physical dps. The spec has to waste an amazing amount of talent points on things that don't help it at all single target. Still if I am not crazy on this one, according to the spreadsheet it is the highest 2h spec, and it would be by far the easiest rotation possible.
Here's a WWS. Klingegeist is our resident Unholy DK, he's always been higher than me on DPS, even single target. I'm not too happy with my performance, but as stated, it could just be that I'm not comfortably seated into my new rotation.
I've been fiddling around with my 51/13/7 build.... is bloodworms perhaps being underrated? I was running a sarth 25 today and a bit of naxx and I noticed my bloodworms ( 1/3 ) ended up being about 1.6% of my dps ( pulling about 3300 overall ) .. although it might just be because I'm still wearing a couple blues.
and on a slight side note, I haven't been able to notice a appreciable DPS difference between blood presence or unholy presence, both HS spam and oblit variants, with UH/ HSx4 coming out a bit ahead.. using dark rider.
Using the no disease rotation (OBx2 -> HSx8 while weaving in DCs on SD procs and "empty" periods in the chain) my DPS is much more than it has been usually (51/0/20).
Topping out at 2600-2700DPS on an 80 dummy with no buffs (not even HoW) or cooldowns. I've repeated this twice so it isn't a fluke. This also does not include Necrosis due to the 1HP overkill issue.
I went ahead and tested this myself on the target dummy in stormwind, it did have HP on it (so necrosis should factor in). I DID pop DRW and timed my ERW with it as well... I tried it in both blood and unholy presence and both were pulling 2500 dps. My gear is also significantly better than yours.... not sure if I am doing something wrong but I was doing the OB > OB > HS > HS > Runic dump then HSx6 > Runic dump and repeat. This was done over a ~2.3 minute timeframe on the dummy. I don't really see what we could be doing different to produce such different results.
Depending on which training dummies your playing with, your Heart Strike cleaves might be hitting secondary mobs.
It's very important to check and doublecheck that your damage is done to the main target only.
I played around a few hours with various Blood builds last night, and the one thing I was surprised about was how well Death Strike performed with 51/0/20. My way of testing was doing several rounds of 3min -fights (with one DRW and Hysteria in each, obviously), and then averaging results. While Obliterating generally gave best results for me (floating around 2900 DPS), Deathstike wasn't more than 50-100 DPS behind. I don't believe it's worth using for DPS per se, but considering how easy it is to sub one for the other, it might be worth using situationally. The heals it provides when glyphed are nothing short of massive (regular 8k heals on self).
Depending on which training dummies your playing with, your Heart Strike cleaves might be hitting secondary mobs.
It's very important to check and doublecheck that your damage is done to the main target only.
I played around a few hours with various Blood builds last night, and the one thing I was surprised about was how well Death Strike performed with 51/0/20. My way of testing was doing several rounds of 3min -fights (with one DRW and Hysteria in each, obviously), and then averaging results. While Obliterating generally gave best results for me (floating around 2900 DPS), Deathstike wasn't more than 50-100 DPS behind. I don't believe it's worth using for DPS per se, but considering how easy it is to sub one for the other, it might be worth using situationally. The heals it provides when glyphed are nothing short of massive (regular 8k heals on self).
My damage was done only to the training dummy mob, that I double checked. In reference to the no disease rotation though I don't think DS has much utility.
My DRW is doing a bit more damage overall. The primary difference seems to be that it copies our hit and expertise more closely-- I only observed a parry when it stood in front of the boss (going to try that macro to fix that). Hitting for about half your own damage is about right, considering it's a cooldown pet that does 2k-3k dps on its own for 22 seconds. It's pretty much in line with gargoyle now, if not better.
On the subject of DRW, I am running 51/13/7 and noticed DRW diseases are not removed via Obliterate any more due - I assume due to Annihilation. This was tested a couple of time on the ebon hold dummy.
I also don't see it hitting much harder - so the scalabability has not been pumped at all that I can see.
Using 51/0/20 I was at 5.6k DPS on Faerlina and 5.3k on Maxxena. I was tanking a lot of the fights and on some others I just screwed up the rotation. This was the first time I have ever raided with this spec but I am very happy with the results. Much much better then 51/13/7 pre patch.
01/21/09, 2:04 PM
. Blood would be king with an appropriate sigil.
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