Yotka wrote: "So the damage from both sigils is 50% on extra damage and 50% on extra disease damage but the [Sigil of the Dark Rider] does NOT add 90 damage to HS at level 80 but 45 damage... I don't know why but it means that [Sigil of Awareness] has more value with OB*2 than the HS increase (even on a 8*HS rotation)." on page 30.
While I see people who keep saying Dark Rider is "actually better", I don't see anyone backing that up with math like Yotka did. Why would it be better than Awareness considering what Yotka said? Was he wrong? I never saw one post correcting him or showing why he was wrong in 6 pages of replies since his inital post detailing the disease-less 51/0/20 spec.
Call me retarded but why would it only add 45 damage?
I'm totally baffled. I see your guys' posts about doing high DPS, but in Naxx I can never in my life get past 2600, or on dummies I don't get past 1600. I've tried PS-IT-HSx2-DC-OB and HSx2-OBx2 dump HSx4, and OB-PS-IT-HSx6. Neither get me past the 3k mark ever. Is there something I could possibly be doing wrong?
I'm totally baffled. I see your guys' posts about doing high DPS, but in Naxx I can never in my life get past 2600, or on dummies I don't get past 1600. I've tried PS-IT-HSx2-DC-OB and HSx2-OBx2 dump HSx4, and OB-PS-IT-HSx6. Neither get me past the 3k mark ever. Is there something I could possibly be doing wrong?
the dummies broken, youll never do more than 3k on it. raid bosses, different story.
I've been a lurker for a while, and decided to make an account and post. I am currently our guild's highest DPS DK, and switching to Blood, 51/0/20 I pulled 4200 DPS on Patchwerk yesterday. I don't know how you guys are pulling 5k+ I know my gear's not perfect yet, but I'm missing 1k+ dps...
My Rotation was OB-IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS-HS-HS-OB-Dump -> Repeat Throwing in random Dumps when I saw SD proc and I had a full bar... Am I doing something wrong, or would getting the rest of my gear give me that extra boost? I know I just specced Blood and I had screwed up a few rotations on Patchwerk and I have to get used to it. I was Unholy for the longest time. But I'd like to know if I'm just doing something wrong, or it's my gear, or I just need to learn the spec?
My Rotation was OB-IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS-HS-HS-OB-Dump -> Repeat Throwing in random Dumps when I saw SD proc and I had a full bar...
I am by no means an expert, and it has been a while since i was blood, but I would say it is your rotation. You seem to be thinking of a cycle as an entire 20 second segment.
Break it into two parts. PS-IT-HS-HS-OB-Dump. This is your first segment. It gets your diseases up the first time and places OB at the end so it takes advantage of the diseases. You want to place a dump at the end of the first run through of runes because this eliminates dps drop due to lag and human error or fatigue.
Now follow it with the rest of your rotation. PS-IT-HS-HS-HS-HS-Dump. It takes about a rotation to get up your RP anyways so dumping at the end of a rune run isnt an issue. As well, always watching for a SD buff is fatigueing for you and will drop your dps, and thirdly, interjecting DC spams in the middle of your rune run messes with your rotation again which can lead to dps time lost.
My understanding is that your other abilities are your primaries and DC should be thought of as an afterthought. Start focusing on it too much and ignoring the natural rotation of your better abilities and you start losing dps.
Another way to think of it is this; Average human reaction time is 0.15-0.30 seconds. Your gcd for example is 1.5 or 1.0 seconds depending on presence. Now at the levels of dps we put out now days, every second or partial second of damage is critical. Say you do 1,000,000 damage over the course of a fight. You average say 5000 damage per second. That means the fight lasted 200 seconds or 3.33 repeating minutes. Basically what it comes down to is your reaction time adds up. If you lose 0.3 of a second here and 0.3 of a second there, you eventually are losing whole seconds of dps. Say you lose a total of 0.5 seconds per half rotation (its very likely more than a mere 0.3 sec given fatigue and over-stimulation of your photo-receptors (whee, I R scientist!) or whatever) looking for an SD proc where your mind could just be hitting the next button on a timer on the natural rhythm that your brain will subconsciously pick up on.
So 0.5 seconds per half rotation, in a 200 second fight gives you 20 half rotations. So basically you lose 10 seconds of a 200 second fight just due to reaction time watching for something that you could fit naturally at the end. So just to reaction time you've lost about 50,000 damage out of a 1,000,000 damage fight. You've lost 5% of your damage output (about 250 dps) watching for a proc you shouldn't stress over. Combined with lag, having OB not take advantage of diseases half of your uses and maybe messing up your rotation due to your recovery from the SD proc and resultant DC spam, you could easily be down the 500-1000 dps.
Anyways, this is just some of my late night musings, and i could be totally out to lunch; God knows I'm no math genius.
PS/IT-Dump-HS-HS-HS-HS-Dump-Dump-HS-HS-OB x Boss Dead
That's my basic rotation. It changes due to parry/dodge/misses and the fact that it doesn't perfectly fit into the 18 seconds alotted by Epidemic. Sometimes I might skip the last HS to get an OB off before the first disease fades, leaving me with an orphaned blood rune that I'll just hang onto until I reapply PS/IT again. When this happens usually the next time OB comes up I can cram the two HS's in before diseases run out.
It's basically a priority rotation that is based on starting off with a diseaseless OB at the very beginning. Apply diseases, if Blood/Death runes are up, hit Heart Strike. If not, hit Death Coil. Only Oblit when diseases are just about to fall off. That's probably the best way to describe my rotation.
I am by no means an expert, and it has been a while since i was blood, but I would say it is your rotation. You seem to be thinking of a cycle as an entire 20 second segment.
Break it into two parts. PS-IT-HS-HS-OB-Dump. This is your first segment. It gets your diseases up the first time and places OB at the end so it takes advantage of the diseases. You want to place a dump at the end of the first run through of runes because this eliminates dps drop due to lag and human error or fatigue.
Now follow it with the rest of your rotation. PS-IT-HS-HS-HS-HS-Dump. It takes about a rotation to get up your RP anyways so dumping at the end of a rune run isnt an issue. As well, always watching for a SD buff is fatigueing for you and will drop your dps, and thirdly, interjecting DC spams in the middle of your rune run messes with your rotation again
Ok well, I wasn't exactly throwing DC whenever, i was throwing DC's when i had a free GCD, but, the purpose of the diseaseless OB is the reason that was posted above me. You can fit 6 HS's and an OB in an epidemic disease if you use OB at the beginning for the death rune refresh. I've noticed the difference between undiseased OB and diseased OB is really only like 1-2k damage, I've hit upwards of 10k OB's without a disease.
Yotka wrote: "So the damage from both sigils is 50% on extra damage and 50% on extra disease damage but the [Sigil of the Dark Rider] does NOT add 90 damage to HS at level 80 but 45 damage... I don't know why but it means that [Sigil of Awareness] has more value with OB*2 than the HS increase (even on a 8*HS rotation)." on page 30.
While I see people who keep saying Dark Rider is "actually better", I don't see anyone backing that up with math like Yotka did. Why would it be better than Awareness considering what Yotka said? Was he wrong? I never saw one post correcting him or showing why he was wrong in 6 pages of replies since his inital post detailing the disease-less 51/0/20 spec.
I just finished reading his math. Very interesting. It simplifies our rotation and would make using sudden doom procs a lot easier just from looking at things. Now he mentioned using that build at higher gear would potentially produce higher results, so my question is at what gear level this would this out way the benefit of using diseases?
I was doing Patchy Last night and I was using a PS<IT<HS<HS<OB<RPD (first with DRW then while thats on C/D DC's) ,this is were I guess I have having a problem. I do put our between 2200 and 2500 DPS with the gear I have and what I have read on here I beleve that I am missing something. I just rince and repeat that above rotation should I consider going to the full 20 second rotation that I have seen above?? Would that rotation with the PS<IT<HS<HS<OB<RPD<PS<HS<HS<HS<HS<OB<RPD if I am reading right work better or produce more DPS Just putting it out there cuz I am trying to optmise my rotation for Peek DPS thanks guys
Thrall: "Morning, Garrosh. Want pancakes for breakfast?"
Garrosh: "A TRUE WARCHIEF WOULD NEVER CONSUME WEAK PANCAKES. ONLY THE MIGHT OF WAFFLES IS FIT TO COMMAND THE HORDE! LOK'TAR O'GAR!"
I was doing Patchy Last night and I was using a PS<IT<HS<HS<OB<RPD (first with DRW then while thats on C/D DC's) ,this is were I guess I have having a problem. I do put our between 2200 and 2500 DPS with the gear I have and what I have read on here I beleve that I am missing something. I just rince and repeat that above rotation should I consider going to the full 20 second rotation that I have seen above?? Would that rotation with the PS<IT<HS<HS<OB<RPD<PS<HS<HS<HS<HS<OB<RPD if I am reading right work better or produce more DPS Just putting it out there cuz I am trying to optmise my rotation for Peek DPS thanks guys
A couple of things that will help you out. One is if your using diseases then you'll need to refresh IT as well as PS in the second rotation. The biggest thing that I've noticed is the gemming that you have. You're hit capped so you need to be gemming for Strength not attack power, stamina and agility. If you need extra crit never stack agility. Stacking crit ads to our melee and spell crit vs agility which only ads to melee. Strength also gives us more attack power then stacking for strait attack power. You can look at the TTT to get the stat weights. That is the biggest thing I see. If you were to gem for Strength it would help a tremendous amount.
I Also noticed your expertise is a bit low. You'll want to cap that as well.
In regards to the Dark Rider Sigil only adding 45. I just did a test with 200 Heart Strikes with and with out. (I did not have any buffs not even HOW up for these tests)
Dark Rider:
HITS: Heart Strikes 134, ---- min 1063 avg 1276 high 1543
Crits: Heartstrikes 66, --- min 2650 avg 3328 high 3912
Sigil of Awareness
Hits: Heartstrike 130, ---- min 1024 avg 1255 high 1525
Crits: Heartstrike 74, ---- min 2599 avg 3170 high 3803
These test was done on the boss target dummy, and no gear changed other then the sigil. There were no snares on target either time. and gear in my armory (xt 80 Belf DK on gnomer) is gear that was used. It almost seems if it is adding 30 to heart strike, and 30 per disease for a grand total of 90. If there is another explanation that I have missed, please clue me in. If someone better at math, wants a better test, or higher sample, just send me a PM and I would be happy to do so.
Yotka wrote: "So the damage from both sigils is 50% on extra damage and 50% on extra disease damage but the [Sigil of the Dark Rider] does NOT add 90 damage to HS at level 80 but 45 damage... I don't know why but it means that [Sigil of Awareness] has more value with OB*2 than the HS increase (even on a 8*HS rotation)." on page 30.
While I see people who keep saying Dark Rider is "actually better", I don't see anyone backing that up with math like Yotka did. Why would it be better than Awareness considering what Yotka said? Was he wrong? I never saw one post correcting him or showing why he was wrong in 6 pages of replies since his inital post detailing the disease-less 51/0/20 spec.
For what it's worth, I did at least observe that Sigil of Awareness turned out better than Dark Rider for 51/0/20 in this post, though I admit I didn't know exactly why that was the case. Thanks for the math on that.
On the 51/0/20 rotation: I've gotten the best results in my tests with the rotation that Nen, Xai, and Eej have been describing-- it has a really consistent spot in the rotation to dump RP without wasting much. Compared to the numbers in the post I linked above, 51/0/20 with that rotation came out very close to the 51/13/7 3xOB rotation. Again, these were 3-min tests on the dummy, no Hysteria or DRW. I think both specs, executed correctly, should come out pretty close.
This makes sense, considering that the patch didn't actually bring massive changes in Blood dps mechanics. 51/0/20 got a ~3-4% buff with Necrosis, and Gargoyle isn't worth taking over DRW anymore. I get the impression that the sudden interest in Blood spec in 3.0.8 is due to a perceived nerfing of Unholy (which is still probably a bit better, actually-- just more in line because of the Gargoyle nerf) and DW spec, both of which are still showing good results in the other threads.
just ran a PW try today with 4530dps over 4min as 51/13/7 with the IT-PS-HS-OB-HS-RP-OB-HS-OB-HS-RP etc rotation,no awareness sigil and im very happy that blood seem to still be viable if you execute rotations right <3
PS/IT-Dump-HS-HS-HS-HS-Dump-Dump-HS-HS-OB x Boss Dead
That's my basic rotation. It changes due to parry/dodge/misses and the fact that it doesn't perfectly fit into the 18 seconds alotted by Epidemic. Sometimes I might skip the last HS to get an OB off before the first disease fades, leaving me with an orphaned blood rune that I'll just hang onto until I reapply PS/IT again. When this happens usually the next time OB comes up I can cram the two HS's in before diseases run out.
It's basically a priority rotation that is based on starting off with a diseaseless OB at the very beginning. Apply diseases, if Blood/Death runes are up, hit Heart Strike. If not, hit Death Coil. Only Oblit when diseases are just about to fall off. That's probably the best way to describe my rotation.
thats exactly what i do, ive only seen my dps reach 5k in either the very beginning of fights when we bl (4h) or in the middle of a fight when we're at 30%, but when lust wears off, i drop gradually.
any tips?
Hi guys im new to the forums but ive read alot in this thread and i was wondering. Right now im running 51/0/20 and i was recently 51/13/7 spec using 3x OBs. I dont have the heigan sigil yet but i was wondering with using 51/0/20 and heavy heart strike rotation would it be better to use [Sigil of the Dark Rider] or Use the heigan 25man sigil even though i would only use about 4 obliterates every minute in the rotation. Also when i do infact get the 25man sigil would it be even better to switch back to 51/13/7 due to the 3x Ob rotation and 4 peice etc etc..Im really liking the DPS from 51/0/20 and ive even reached a max of 3k on a boss dummy self buffed without using DRW and Hysteria.
How much will some points in Toughness hurt 51/13/7 dps
I'm a first time poster and just switched to 51/20 blood day before yesterday. I don't get to raid much b/c I work at night so just on my weekends. So far I am really happy with blood. In heroics (I know this thread is about max raid dps, but anyhow) I'm seeing about comparable to or slightly higher dps than my prepatch 17/0/54 spec.
I want to try 51/13/7 next, but I was wondering about switching out some of the frost/it bonus talents for toughness for the movement impairment reduction. I did some quick napkin math using the numbers Leaflock posted on page 34:
Average Plague Strike hit: 788
Average Icy Touch hit: 2117
Average Blood Plague tick: 701
Average Frost Fever tick: 905
Bonus IT dmg from glacier rot (2/2) (with one over a 20s rotation):
10% of 2117= 211.7 / 20s = 11dps (incorrect math just to get a ballpark #)
Bonus frost dmg from 1 point of black ice:
frost dmg in a 20s rotation:
2117 (it) + 905 x 6 ( 3s procs per 20s of FF ) = 7547
6% of 7547 = 452.82 / 20s = 22.641
Am I missing anything or is this roughly correct?
From these numbers I definitely would be ok with dropping 2/2 GR, plus that frees me up for IT before PS for the spell hit/rotation screw up prevention and the range advantage of IT. But my question is if the dps loss from moving the last 3 points from black ice to toughness is just too high?
Also Crackensan I saw that your spec took the points from Black Ice for Toughness and not glacier rot, yet you are saying that you start your rotation with IT then PS. Why didn't you take the 2 points from GR and only 3 from BI? And do you find the points in toughness to be worth the loss of black ice? I'm not trying to criticize, just trying to see if I am missing something.
Paccattam: Your numbers look fairly right to me, and I haven't seen any appreciable DPS loss ( read: easily inside margin of error ) from putting some points into toughness, especially given that in some cases, diseaseless rotations are starting to look more appealing, which would make GR / BI completely useless.
If you guys get to 5k with all buffs up, my gear has to be vastly superior.
Diseaseless rotations will never be better, simply because if they are Blizzard will fix it. Disease oriented class should use their diseases, it is as if rogues just spamming SS but not using combos is a DPS upgrade, it should never be and in the unlikely event it is -> it will get sorted.
If you guys get to 5k with all buffs up, my gear has to be vastly superior.
Diseaseless rotations will never be better, simply because if they are Blizzard will fix it. Disease oriented class should use their diseases, it is as if rogues just spamming SS but not using combos is a DPS upgrade, it should never be and in the unlikely event it is -> it will get sorted.
I agree that if the diseasless rotation turns out to be better then the normal then blizzard will probably fix it. However, for the people who are testing it and finding a dps increase why not use it until it's changed in the future? Even though I'm only in heroics I'm finding it to be better dps than the typical 17/54 post patch and 51/20 with diseases. Since it seems to scale better based on the numbers provided on page 30, I think it's still a viable option and definitely worth testing further.
I used the standard rotation mentioned above a few posts from Eej:
OB-IT/PS-HS-HS-Dump-Dump
HS-HS-Dump-HS-HS-OB
PS/IT-Dump-HS-HS-HS-HS-Dump-Dump-HS-HS-OB
It was something close to that. However, I did tried the no disease rotation on a couple bosses (Noth and Loatheb) and found that it wasn't too impressive. Considering that all damage can crit with no diseases, Loatheb could be slightly higher, and it was more or less a disappointment. I also tested these on a dummy, with either 173 crit sigil or 420 OB damage sigil. No disease was definitely lower as well, but my DRW did ~700 more dps with no diseases.
So I'm one of those clowns who has been neglecting expertise until literally today when I read a post about it. So I scrambled for some gems and got myself to 10 (21 with elixers and food and more when blood spec) Now, I'm going to go all taboo here, but I started wailing on a dummy and found myself at a dps decrease, despite my recount happily reporting that I've pushed dodges off and parries are at a minimum. Is it a dummy thing? Or am I going too far with the expertise? Am I just geared wrong for blood? Is my rotation sloppy (likely)
Here's my armory Mind you I'm unholy specced at the time of this logout (been flipping back and forth all day :P) Any critiques would be great.
Basically, I'd love to make the switch to blood spec. Pumping raid damage via Abom. Might and Hysteria, all the delicious strength buffs, regaining obliterate, and not having to babysit ghoul/gargoyle/bone shield sounds great right now. ...So long as I don't drop from the #1 spot on the meters, anyway. Thanks!
01/23/09, 11:44 PM
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