Exodist

Bionh is correct about Expertise. Expertise should be the icing on the cake, not the bread its self.

I will have to admit tho, I really wished they would remove Haste from at least one of our T7 peices and put Expertise in its place without changing the other stats. Legs or Chest either one would be fine..

 

pdpi

I'd go as far as to say that it's valuable to actively theorycraft in that direction precisely because of that. I think we all want a balanced game here, and theorycrafting our way into breaking mechanics is the only contribution we can make towards that end.

 

kelben

Just two questions, I've been following this thread for a while, and familiar with most of the topics discussed. One point of confusion is the diseaseless rotation vs a normal disease roation. I personally rather like the idea of diseaseless rotation, but since Dr_AllCOM3 said there was an error in his spread sheet, is the diseaseless rotation still worthwhile to use?

Second question is most people are taking to putting a gylph of the ghoul into the 3rd major gylph slot, is that the accepted trend since the bloodstrike gylph doesn't benfit from slows like the mage torment of the weak does?

Haste is the devil...

 

mtrixis

Was a compiled list of what slows do affect the Blood Strike glyph been posted?

Desecration, Frostfire Bolt... what else? Chains of Ice? Dazes?

Ideally you'd want something that a given class always uses and always provides. If you knew that class was in your raid (possibly appropriately specced), you could swap in that Glyph.

 

richard

Torment the Weak and BS glyph are different in that TtW has slows and snares in the tooltip, and thus benefits from things like thunderclap and frost fever. BS glyph is only affected by slows, so just movement speed reductions.

Also, Infected Wounds from feral druids, but I don't think it's common to have in a pve spec.

 

oll

I'm also a bit confused now regarding the Blood Strike Glyph since the patch, especially because of the french translation that is "slowed", and the english tooltip is "snare". I think it would be great to add this list, if it's feasible, to the TTT or the DK faq.
I reread and search in this thread but didn't succeed in finding a strong post patch yes or no answer.
I browsed the WWS abilities (post 3.0.8) of my last guild's raid and it appears that bosses get the frostfirebolt debuff, but not the frostbolt one. Am I wrong ? And if not, does it mean right now that the blood strike glyph definitively benefits from a frostfire mage in the raid ?

 

Dariddler

Been following this thread since it started, and now i've decided to add some data to it.

Regarding rotations and diseases, this is what i've found.

Running with a 51/0/21 spec it seems that OB->HS->HS->OB does produce more dps than the standard
IT->PS->HS->HS->OB->RD
OB->HSx4->RD

This is of course based on only my own data and tested on dummies, no EXTENSIVE testing in raids, but so far after 2x10man and 2x25 nax that the results is consistent with the dummy-testing.

However i do agree that this is most likely going to be fixed if it would turn out that ignoring diseases will produce more dps and i do consider myself a pretty experienced DK-player so it's not about missing rotations or lag (30-40ms ping)

Sadly these tests were done on dummies at 1hp which means necrosis wasnt factored in but the results were as follows:

Disease-less Rotation: ~2700dps
Normal Rotation: ~2200dps

These tests were all limited to 10 minutes each, using 3x Hysteria+DRW(yes, i wasted 1minute hysteria CD to allow for DRW to be avail in conjuction with Hysteria) and 2xGhoul with HoW being the only "extra" buff.

What i've found for my own self is that it's "easier" to dump your RP using the disease-less rotation considering you have abit more time between runes cooling down. and i'm not that exceptionally well-geared in my own opinion a link to my armory-profile will follow.


Glyphs: Obliterate, Blood Strike, Icy Touch

The World of Warcraft Armory

/Dari

 

Leaflock

The rotation you list is not at all the "standard" for 51/0/20, and the way you've written it, it's diseaseless half the time anyway. Try the rotation listed in the last few pages, and see what results you get then. Diseaseless shouldn't be that much higher than a correctly-executed "proper" rotation.

 

Melchior

I've got a couple questions for those more familiar with 51/0/20 (I've only ever run 51/13/7 for Blood):

I was messing with this build last night and simply could not find even a priority system that seemed to line up properly with rune refresh timers.

To start I would perform: OB -> IT -> PS -> HS -> HS

From there, I was basically prioritizing HS for any B or D runes when possible, using OB when diseases were nearing their end *or* I was looking at mid-duration diseases with F/U and another F/U preparing to refresh (so OB -> IT -> PS at that point).

The problem I keep running into no matter how I move around the strike order is that at some point I find myself need to OB, and the next four runes will come up in the order of B - B - F - U.

What would be the highest DPS option to use the next four runes since the diseases are down? My only choices at this point seem to be to either throw two disease-less HS or sit on the two B runes until F - U come up after them and refresh diseases before throwing HS, but neither way really seems right even if I have some RP to dump in the interim.

Am I tripping up somewhere with my priority on the runes?

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

Lazareth

Well, you start with Oblit to convert F/U into D. You then pop IT and PS and you're left with two blood runes to HS with, by the time your two HS are done, you are now staring at two available death runes (if not, pop a DC), then use your two death runes for HS as well. By this time, your two blood runes should be refreshed for two more HS (pop a DC if not). You should now be staring at U/F runes and about 2-3 seconds left on your diseases. Hit an Oblit, empty your RP, and start over from PS/IT. Repeat. (I hope I didn't butcher that, as I'm at work with no WoW in front of me)

You should never oblit until your diseases are about to fall, and when executed properly (no misses or not a lot of time spent running around) it should be after six heart strikes.

Oblit to start to get two death runes.
PS > IT > HS x6 > Oblit > RP Dump > Repeat

Holy crap.

 

Nen

Don’t think rotation, think priority system, it’s very smooth once you get the hang of it, you can patch up any breaks/ranged/ae fights easier with the below:

1. OB is only used to wipe diseases (when they are about to wear),
2. When you use OB, your next gcds(or priority) should be IT and PS (when you are more comfortable with the spec you can fit DCs before the IT and PS)
3. When IT and PS is up, your priority is to spam HS, when you can’t spam HS, move to DC.


If you really want to follow a rotation:
Start:
OB IT PS HS HS DC

Rotation:
HS HS HS HS OB DC
IT PS HS HS HS HS DC
HS HS OB IT PS DC

 

Dariddler

Alright, after trying the REAL "standard" rotation i found out that the difference was smaller for sure, but i'm still doing more DPS just OB->HS->HS->OB which either means that i'm truly bad at the specific rotation or that running without diseases is still more beneficial for me.

The real question for me though is, is the added damage-bonus+dot damage worth more than spending the runes and time doing obliterates? i still produce roughly 3.4k average dps in raids (bosses only according to WWS)

 

Gaffadin

Unless you are using a Boss target dummy your Heart Strikes will hit an additional dummy and artificially inflate your DPS results.

 

titanicus

Unless you use the dummy in Ebon Hold. Or are just blind : / You should notice the double numbers when HS if you are actually that close to another dummy.

 

Gaffadin

You can be right on the far edge of one of the strings of three dummies and Heart Strike will still hit the adjacent target next to it (I tested it to make sure).

You must always, always test on a Boss dummy from now on to avoid any issues with Heart Strike. I found this out the hard way.

 

Azurai

I posted a few pages back a simple test and I'll repeat it again since people keep posting the TTW change and lots of conjecture:

Apply just PS to a target dummy and hit it with BS/HS. Then apply IT to the target dummy and hit it with BS/HS. You'll notice the damage stays the same because there is only 1 disease and the melee slow on FF doesn't trigger the glyph because it is NOT like TTW.

The BS glyph does now and has always benefited from every actual snare, there's no reason for people to keep posting about their miraculous discovery of the synergy between FFB and the glyph.

In order to fully understand in which way the glyph could benefit raid boss DPS (besides a boss being snarable) you'd have to understand the system in which WoW buffs and debuffs function. Suffice to say every effect from a debuff is going to have its own (possibly hidden) debuff which applies to a mob. Example: Infected Wounds - Spell - World of Warcraft (notice it applies two auras). Thus you can apply the melee slow from IW on a boss but the movement speed debuff will not go up. The only way you're going to see the BS glyph work is if one of these multi-debuffs is somehow triggering it from the main or dummy debuff and not from the snare. If someone wants to do some extensive testing on some lower tier boss mob with a druid/mage/whatever in order to rule out the possibility of exploiting IW/FFB or whatnot, have at it.

 

Lazareth

So now that it's been a week or so since the 3.0.8 buff for Blood, has anybody compared any numbers to 51/13/7 to 51/0/20? In the "raid dps" thread here in the DK forums, nobody has posted (at least it's not in the OP) a 51/13/7 parse. I'd like to try it again but with the lack of Sigil of Awareness (Stupid heigan didn't drop it AGAIN) I don't think that it would give me its truly capable numbers.

Holy crap.

 

Tharvos

Wait, so the BS glyph does NOT work on raidbosses debuffed with IW / FFB ?
Who is right now? Some people say it work some say it don't... I am confused!

My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.

 

Darian_TruBlade

The issue is that all notable testing thus far has been done on the Heroic Training Dummy, which is affected by snares. There hasn't been any practical testing done on an actual raid boss. FFB and IW appear on those bosses but the question remains as to whether the glyph benefits.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Derivel

Is there any chance of getting the front page of this thread updated in a manner such as Zurm's intro post for the unholy discussion?

I am switching to blood tonight to give the 10% AP buff to our raid, and I think by reading the last 10 pages or so I have gotten most of the useful information, but it would be super useful to compile a lot of stuff like current reputed best specs, rotations, glyphs, etc.

I know it sounds a bit selfish and "hey sum1 do this 4 me kthxbai", but if anyone is willing I would bet lots of people looking at trying blood would feel more confident. It would be especially useful as a lot of the earlier discussions in the thread are now outdated by patch changes. I'd offer to help if I had any expertise at all with blood

 

Merendel

Just some observations on how IW worked back when I was feral. If a boss could be slowed but not snared IW would apply unless an equal or greater slow was applied first, in which case IW would not be applied at all. Often on snare immune targets if a DK cast IT before I applied IW I would never see IW come up unless they let their FF drop for a while. This leads me to believe the aura's are applied independently and if both are blocked/overwriten they dont even show up as a debuff. I find it unlikely that IW provides snare benefit for this glyph.

However take this with a grain of salt as I'v been stuck resto for the last 6weeks to raid. It's possible this behavior has changed.

 

◊ Eej

I don't particularly have the time at the moment to consolidate all the info in this thread on the front page, so if anyone wants to do it I'll just copy paste it in.

 

poorbeggarman

I did some rough testing pre-3.08 and obtained the following results:

The tests were done on Sartharion(10), 50/0/21 went in solo with tank gear, glyph of blood strike, removing proc-based trinkets and had weapon chanted with rune of swordshattering to limit single strike damage fluctuations.

I went in, D&Ded for runepower, activated icebound fortitude, pulled Sarth, and heartstriked (no diseases and with /cancelaura Bloody Vengeance /cancelaura Abomination's might) till i "died", then clicked shadow of death off to avoid dura. Done 3 times to obtain average HS damage.

Results:
HS = ~650 average

Repeated the tests, this time by pulling him with chains of ice.It didnt affect his movement speed, of course, but the debuff stayed up. Again, done 3 times to obtain average HS damage.

HS w/ Chains = ~800 average

These rough tests show a ~20% increase in HS damage, which are attributable to glyph of blood strike. Again these are very crude numbers and may be due to statistical error. I plan to repeat the tests in 0/0/0 to avoid talents which can skew numbers like blood gorged and abom's might, with screenshots and the like when i do find the time.

 

titanicus

I took the above posters idea and tested it again. I went in full tank gear completely untalented. 0/0/0
This was done in 10 man OS just like above.
I only used horn of winter before each to generate a few extra runic power for a sooner IB.
Stats were same for every test and I ran 5 tests for each. Run in pop dodge trinket and BS until out of blood runes, use IB and blood tap and hit another BS. Record. Same for second set except I would Chains of Ice as i pulled him. Results were very interesting.

Format.
Test1: Avg dmg
Test2: Avg dmg
Test3: Avg dmg
Test4: Avg dmg
Test5: Avg dmg

#Strikes total
Total AVG

**NOTE: The reason my overall AVG's are a little off from the Recount SS's are because I used a calculator for that to get a more accurate calculation.**


Set One: No chains of ice:
Test1: 442
Test2: 470
Test3: 456
Test4: 447
Test5: 439

#12 strikes
Avg overall: 450.8 -(This taken from Averaging the above 5 averages which were recorded from recount. Will provide SS below.)





Set two: Chains of ice
Test1: 583
Test2: 534
Test3: 511
Test4: 557
Test5: 531

#17 Strikes
Avg. overall: 543.2 -(This taken from Averaging the above 5 averages which were recorded from recount. Will provide SS below.)




Simple math time. Taking the average from the first set and comparing to second set we get this:

Without Chains: 450.8 - designate trial A
With: 543.2 -designate trial B

Using a formula from my physics class assuming A as measured and B as calculated we can test % difference using this forumula: |Measured - calculated| / Measured ( Absolute value of difference divided by measured) -

543.2-450.8 / 543.2 multiplied by 100 = 17.01 % difference. Or ~20% increase using chains of ice.

It is my belief that this glyph works combined with chains of ice on raid bosses.

Yes this data is somewhat rough. But it should be fairly accurate.

 

jones4569

I haven't checked up on this thread in some time, but is there anyway to control what your DRW attacks? I've been pvping as 53/18/0 for a little bit now & I've been trying to figure out a way so I can control what my DRW attacks.

It seems to have its own threat & will always go after a healer ( since nothing can attack the DRW )