oll

Yes, but is it worth wasting one GCD (that makes 0 damage) and one FR just for having +20% HS damages for 10 seconds ? Maybe when there's several blood death knights in the raid, I don't know.

 

Sylari

If it works with chains, it stands to reason it would work with things such as frostfire bolt as well.

 

oll

I'm not really sure about this.
Snare is the direct effect of COI, not a secondary effect of the spell,like the snare effect from FFB. I'm not sure both these effects obey to the same game mechanism.

 

poorbeggarman

Chains of ice on raid boss dummy= 20% increase in HS damage(glyph works)

Mages have been bothering me at my test dummy, so i can confirm that:

FFB debuff on raid boss dummy= 20% increase in HS damage(glyph works)

From the previous 2 posts:

Chains of ice on Sartharion(10)= 20% increase in HS damage(glyph works)

Therefore, as an extension of that:

FFB debuff on Sartharion would also make glyph of blood strike work.

 

zagor

Logic would say so, if raid boss dummy is in all aspects equal to Sartharion (regular raid boss).

However I have read speculation even on this thread that it is not, dummy is not immune to snares while boss is.

I would say only a combat log parse can prove one way or the other.

 

poorbeggarman

Raid bosses are immune to snare effects, but not the debuff, as shown in the tests with sartharion.(page 38)

This means they are not slowed. It also means although they're not slowed, the snare debuff stays on them, making glyph of blood strike work.

It has been shown that the glyph works with COI on Sartharion(10). What's left would probably be tests done on a raid boss affected by FFB.

 

zagor

What about talent Chilblains - Spell - World of Warcraft?

Boss is immune to that, but he will have Frost Fever dot on him. Will the Blood Strike Glyph work in that case?

 

titanicus

What if we replace IT in our rotation with chains of ice. We loose the little bit of bonus dmg, but it could be worth the 20% gain for HS. Especially if you use the rotation I do :

PT IT HS HS OB DUMP
PT IT HS HS HS HS DUMP HS OB DUMP

With that it would most likely be a small but significant bump in DPS to sub in Chains instead of IT.
Just a thought.


@ Senoj - From my experience it goes after who I target when I use it.

 

zeheres

Has anyone yet been able to provide a representative comparison of 51/13/7 vs. 51/0/20? Didn't find anything in this thread so far.

Cheers

 

cyberthug

So are you telling me that the BS glyph works when your using Heart strikes still??

 

poorbeggarman

Probably would, but if you're that deep in frost, you might as well glyph differently to prioritise strikes that benefit frost.

I think it would be counterproductive, since you miss out on HS bonus damage from diseases and IT direct and dot damage. The whole point of proving that Chains of ice applies a snare debuff on raid bosses and hence gives our HS 20% extra damage(glyphed) is to prove that this glyph works with FFB as well. Since you will almost always have a mage in your 25-man raid, there will almost always be a FFB debuff on the boss, so if you use Glyph of BS, your HS would do 20% extra damage throughout the fight if your mages don't mess up and die prematurely.

Its a widely known fact.

 

titanicus

It would be a difficult thing to test, for accurate results you would have to most likely test it in an actual raid. Which would be much more difficult to sort out buffs et cetera to see if there was any difference.

 

poorbeggarman

No, its actually very simple.

You + mage form a raid, get into sartharion(10) he fires a FFB, you taunt and BS till you die.

You: 0/0/0 , in tank gear, frost pres, weapon with small damage range, avoid using any enchants/gear that give you proc-based dps buffs. Don't forget Glyph of Blood strike.

Mage: Go in naked to avoid dura.

Record BS damage with and without FFB debuff up on boss.

Repeat repeat repeat= accurate results= Solid proof= profit

 

Munroe87

Alright folks, I need serious help. I get a trial run with the top guild on the server tomorrow, trouble is that they want me as Blood and I'm screwing up horribly. I've done fine as Unholy, but there's so much conflicting info on Blood that it's giving me a splitting headache.

The best numbers I've been able to pull on the Boss dummy are around 2300, nothing at all I'm proud of. Here's my armory page: The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm pretty sure I need to drop 2 points from virulence and slap them on to Necrosis, is that correct? Actually could someone just post a link to the standard 51/20 spec? I've searched for days for a link to it to no avail, so I just took the old 50/21 spec and moved the point from Gargoyle to DRW. Armory-ed a couple of folks, but both of them had different variants of the 51/20.

My current glyphs are Ghoul, Obliterate, and Plague Strike for major. I'm going to drop plague strike and pick up Glyph of Blood Strike since I found out that it works with HS.

The rotation I've had the most success with is as follows:

PS>IT>HS>HS>OB>DUMP>PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DUMP>OB

Couple of questions, when you do a dump in this, should you be doing a full RP dump? Or just shoot off one DC and continue on your merry way?

Also what about sudden doom? When that procs do you still want to fire off a DC? Or just wait until the designated dump in the rotation?

Any idea what I could be screwing up so bad to get such low numbers on the dummy? I'm desperate here to get this closer to my Unholy single target numbers, and none of the other rotations have worked for me at all. I'll be getting my Nobles trinket tomorrow, which should help, but I should still be doing way more I'm certain.

 

poorbeggarman

Try PS>IT>HS>HS>OB>DUMP (first rotation)
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>OB>HS>HS ( all subsequent rotations)

I only dump depending on rune cooldowns since i prioritise strikes(physical attacks) as blood.Sudden doom is an exception due to it being a free DC crit.

I think virulence is essential due to the 3% spellhit you gain, avoiding IT and DC resists. Either dump epidemic or BCB, yet another tough choice.

 

clairecakes

The standard 51/0/20 build is this. Some points can be switched around (Rune Tap rather then Vampiric Blood being the main one). Blood Strike and Obliterate are the two biggy glyphs to grab. The third is preference currently (between Ghoul, Plague Strike and DnD).

Remember when working on the Boss Dummy that Blood is VERY armor dependent. No Sunders make a huge difference. So comparing Blood's boss dummy numbers to Frost or Unholy (which both use a lot of non-physical abilities) is going to be a losing battle. Also unless there is a snare on the dummy your numbers will again be less then accurate as Heart Strike is a huge part of Blood's damage and it lacks its glyph buff on individual tests. This all means that 2300 average DPS on a boss dummy isn't that bad.

Generally the rotation is (when glyphed for Plague Strike) OB>IT>PS>HS>HS>DUMP>PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>HS>HS>DUMP.

The idea is to get as many Heart Strikes in as you can while maintaining diseases on the target. Oblit when you need more death runes. RP dump when you proc or everything else is on cooldown.

Blood has a very tight rotation and you suffer a great deal (dps wise) when you flub the rotation. But it is also very bursty when stacking cooldowns. Wait for those Unholy Strength procs to summon your ghoul or DRW and you can see some hefty numbers in raids.

Also make sure that you have someone dropping a snare in fights. Either an Unholy or DW DK with Desecration or a Mage spamming Frost Fire Bolt.

Sadly Blood seems to be very dependent on others to shine. Where DW and Frost can double dip from caster and melee buffs and shine Blood needs a snare tosser and a sunder lackey to pull big numbers.


EDIT: I forgot to mention why going with Virulence is preferable to Epidemic. In a solid 51/0/20 Blood rotation your Oblits will be knocking off the diseases at their natural duration point. Thus points in Epidemic are wasted. If there's a great deal of movement and/or you don't feel comfortable with the rotation Epidemic can be a good idea though. It makes a rotation flub a little more forgiving.

 

Nen

Munny, this is what your unholy tree should look like(if you go with a 2/2 Epidemic). It’s been proven that pure spell hit is just not that good for most dks, the only exception would probably be a ITx6 frost build.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

For rotation refer to post #935 and 936. Note: The rotation is different from the above post since it only works with builds with epidemic, the concept remains the same.

 

◊ Eej

http://elitistjerks.com/1070936-post907.html

I don't really understand why people aren't opening with OB and aren't using more death coils.

 

Kapaneus

Good call on epidemic. Besides, wasn't it put to rest that a diseaseless rotation can do just as well if not better? (i may have missed the part where this concept was thrown out the window)

I want to try blood out for our next raid, as it scales better with gear and I think brings more to the raid, but we have a pally tank :P Do druids normall cast faerie fire when not tanking? On the upside, we do have a frostfire mage.

I never did account for the dummy's armor when doing tests. Is it safe to say that if I do 2500 as unholy and 2500 as blood, that I'll pull more damage as blood (assuming FFB and Faerie fire or something)?

 

Felblood

Uhm so just to be sure - about Blood Strike glyph & snares: Does IT count as a snare?
I checked some different replies and its about 50/50, with half saying that it does, and half saying that it doesnt...

Because if it doesnt, it means that BS glyph is only worthwhile if you have a FF mage in raid (read: non-arcane mage, since i dont see a reason for fire/frost mages not to use FF bolt).

I know Chains of Ice count as snare, but the dps you recieve from gaining a HS bonus for keeping CoI up (10 sec dura) is less than the dps you could have done with that frost rune instead, by using it for IT or as a death rune for another HS, for example.

Also, apart from FF mages, any other snares that dps/tank classes usually use on raid bosses?

 

clairecakes

Currently Frost Fever (IT's debuff) does not count as a snare. FFB does. Desecration does as well. So if you have a DW DK or a FFB mage in your raid [Glyph of Blood Strike] is a must.

 

Kobal

What about Infected Wounds from a Feral Tank? That should "activate" the Blood Strike Glyph as well, shouldn't it?

 

Bloody_sorcerer

Rawr pegs diseaseless about 50? DPS lower than properly diseased, and that's across numerous gear levels, including probable mid-ulduar stats. While it isn't better, it's got its' advantages over diseased, namely one of the easiest rotations of any of the specs.

 

Grondarg

Which version of Rawr are you using? I'm using 2.1.9 and I can't get it to accept the custom rotation needed for a diseaseless rotation.

 

EwokChilli

Hey, i know that Blood Tap can sometimes lock death runes for an encounter if you Blood Tap while you already have a death rune. As frost, we never have more than 2 death runes, so the wierdest things we get is that it refreshes both blood runes and makes one permanent for a while. There any similar issues with BT for Blood after you OB stuff? Didn't know if you could hit Blood Tap after you 2x OB to refresh all your death runes instantly.

On a second topic, I've been contemplating trying the disease-less rotation. I assume the spec for that is 51/0/21, and you use BS & OB Glyphs. But is the rotation just OB OB HS HS DUMP? I definitely like the idea of only using 3 keys for single target. Is this pretty much it? I've been 2H Frost for quite a long time now and I'm just trying to feel around the pond some for some other ideas.