I do not disagree with you in regards to your first statement. In a 10 second window, you have to fit as many 1.5 second GCD's in as possible. Some of those are reduced slightly because they're spells (haste), and some of that is increased by latency. In my personal Experience, I can get 4 Strikes, and 2-3 DC's off before my first U/H runes activate. That's 6-7 GCD's. I'm not sitting there with "dead time"
What you're suggesting is to sub out an Obliterate for 2 HS's. Effectively increasing the amount of strikes to 5, also increasing the chance for Sudden Doom to proc, so safely say 7-8 GCD's being used for Strikes/Spells. How are you fitting that into a 10 second window? You can't. Runes are activating faster than you can spend them. Your "rotation" takes 11, 12, even 13 seconds depending on your RNG SD procs. Let's take SD out of the picture, because soon, it won't trigger a GCD. You're talking about doing OBx1, HSx4, RP Dump, right? Assuming 2 DC's in an RP dump, that's 7 * 1.5 = 10.5 seconds + latency. At 150ms latency, you're adding nearly an extra second on at 11.5 seconds. And that's just 3.1 we're talking about. 3.0.8 Sudden Doom procs means much more than that.
So, in today's setup, you're talking about edging out an extra 5-10% damage in your rotation, but taking 15-30% longer to do it.
Good work. I think you are on the money with your analysis having tried the longer rotation (OBx1 HSx4) i was really struggling to use my runes and also dump any RP. I lost about 300DPS compared to my old 51/13/7 setup.
I will try the shorter cycle tonight.
(I think Oceanic latency of ~400-450ms makes the longer cycle really tough to pull off)
I've been following this thread for a while and haven't really seen anyone who takes Blood Worms in their spec. It seems that the 3 points often go instead to Blood Aura and Mark of Blood. Personally I chose to put the three points into blood worms and although I'm not totally sure I'm doing the math correct (which is why I'm not posting it), they seem to be approximately a static 50 DPS or so increase, at least on Patchwerk.
I was wondering if someone could provide some numbers (someone who is sure they know how to do the math right) on the DPS contributed due to blood worms. It seems to be a wise choice to me assuming you don't need to run blood aura or use mark of blood. The other benefit I found is that they help to keep you above the 75% mark in order to get the extra damage from blood-gorged a lot more effectively than using Rune Tap every minute.
I've been following this thread for a while and haven't really seen anyone who takes Blood Worms in their spec. It seems that the 3 points often go instead to Blood Aura and Mark of Blood. Personally I chose to put the three points into blood worms and although I'm not totally sure I'm doing the math correct (which is why I'm not posting it), they seem to be approximately a static 50 DPS or so increase, at least on Patchwerk.
I was wondering if someone could provide some numbers (someone who is sure they know how to do the math right) on the DPS contributed due to blood worms. It seems to be a wise choice to me assuming you don't need to run blood aura or use mark of blood. The other benefit I found is that they help to keep you above the 75% mark in order to get the extra damage from blood-gorged a lot more effectively than using Rune Tap every minute.
I'd say they are pretty terrible. I get about twice the healing out of Blood Presence/iLOTP if thats what you are after.
They would be less than 1% of my total damage done on a raid but I cannot find anywhere else to put the points in terms of pure DPS.
I'd say they are pretty terrible. I get about twice the healing out of Blood Presence/iLOTP if thats what you are after.
They would be less than 1% of my total damage done on a raid but I cannot find anywhere else to put the points in terms of pure DPS.
I'm not looking for the healing at all. I was wondering what they did in terms of just pure DPS. It is incredibly small, but if the point is to find the absolute top DPS spec, then doing 1% more damage may be worth it. I'm just wondering about the actual numbers, how much extra dps can you expect from them.
I was thinking of taking out Mark of the Blood and put it in Hysteria so literally changing 1 point, but after looking at a few linked builds i see people not getting bloodworms and taking Vampiric Blood, Mark of Blood and Rune Tap, also taking Virulence in the Unholy tree.
I was just wondering why? Surely blood worms is minimal damage but its still a slight increase to DPS as the other are just survivability talents?
I was thinking of taking out Mark of the Blood and put it in Hysteria so literally changing 1 point, but after looking at a few linked builds i see people not getting bloodworms and taking Vampiric Blood, Mark of Blood and Rune Tap, also taking Virulence in the Unholy tree.
I was just wondering why? Surely blood worms is minimal damage but its still a slight increase to DPS as the other are just survivability talents?
Uhh, you definitely want Hysteria. I guess the others are your choice but Hysteria is a must.
Rune tap will save your life, it has mine quite a few times.
I'm not sure if this happens or not but on thadduis its possible bloodworms will get a charge and kill people. DRW did that last night and cost us Undying. :\
After reading through some of the last pages of this i can't see anything said about Bloodworms.
How can you have read through the last pages but completely missed the four posts right above yours about this very topic?
Blood worms will provide such a small amount of DPS that it would be trivial and it wouldn't make or break your DPS. The healing received from Blood Aura is much more useful to your raid than the minute DPS increase you would get with Blood Worms.
I opt for Mark of Blood and Blood Aura simply because the utility gained from those two talents is much more useful than the Bloodworms are. Yes they are survivability talents, but they are raid survivability talents, not personal dps. Raid utility needs to be ranked higher than 1% personal dps, as raiding is really a team effort.
I have used worms many times now on training dummies. I have never really checked in raids since I didn't care but they seem to be doing 70-80 dps. This is not a lot, by any means, but is hardly trivial. I agree that having blood aura offers more to the raid but unless I'm missing something, raiding has turned into a big epeen flexing contest. Nothing in current content is difficult to heal. I did hear from our healers that our 6 min Mal kill was the 1st challenge they have had in a while but that was with 4 healers I think and that's just one fight that you will only be doing one time. When Ulduar comes out I will probably...hopefully, have to change my thought process. Until then go with the Blood Worms, they are more dps. We stack our raids to maximize dps. Max buffs/debuffs. I guess I could use that logic and say that my JC prof is trivial and I should just be a miner so I have more stam and consequently live longer. Sorry if I rambled but your answer is, YES, blood worms are more dps. If I ever die in Naxx I will indeed be blaming my healers or blaming myslef for being out of position.
If you count opportunity costs, bloodworms might be worth a little more than you are giving them credit for. Dropping below 75% costs us 10% damage from blood gorged. Any passive healing (such as bloodworms), reduces the need to actively (and thus wasting cooldowns) keep above the 75% health mark. I don't know about everyone else, but seems healers don't necessarily have the time to worry about dps that isn't below 50% health.
This could be moot, depending on the availability of your healers to actively keep you topped off.
I'm not looking for the healing at all [from bloodworms]. I was wondering what they did in terms of just pure DPS. It is incredibly small, but if the point is to find the absolute top DPS spec, then doing 1% more damage may be worth it. I'm just wondering about the actual numbers, how much extra dps can you expect from them.
Just curious, trying to learn here. Why all the tunnel focus on pure dps in the blood tree? Do people not care about the 10% damage boost gained from being over 75% health?
Edit: blah, posted on a cached version of this page, didnt see the latest couple posts. I guess my answer is yes, Maud *should* be looking for the healing from bloodworms.
Rune Tap is an amazing heal on a 30 sec cd (talented), that can be the difference between living and dieing.
You don't just stand still on every fight and sometimes healers can't spare a global to get you back up.
Sacrificing two heart strikes to pop Vamp Blood and Rune Tap to keep you alive = more dps.
What fight are you taking so much damage on that you need that kind of instant healing for?
If something like this is the case, I would strongly urge you to reconsider going over your tactics. At this level of content any DPS class needing instant access to 20%+ of their health is probably doing something wrong. This is kind of the same way I feel about blood aura. Even though you bring GASP utility to the raid, if someone is going to die they are going to die, blood aura doesn't produce the kind of healing that is going to be the difference between a life and a death. So as far as maximizing the potential DPS of a blood spec goes I would have to argue that no matter now miniscule, blood worms should strongly be considered.
PS. Are people forgetting that we have IBF and AMS? Between combat timers and big shiny spell details, there isn't much incoming damage I can think of right now that I can't anticipate. Popping one of these cooldowns for some of our oh so plentiful runic power and waiting to catch a heal seems like a much better alternative to the runes and talent points being thrown away.
I'm curious about why there is so much debate between bloodworms and mark/blood aura. With the new diseaseless rotation (which I believe is OB-OB-HS-HS) for 51/0/20 that seems to be spanking traditional blood specs in terms of DPS, why not just drop DRM and get both? You can have your cake and eat it, too! Traditional Blood spec rotations just aren't putting out the kind of numbers that other specs are right now in 25 man raids, so there doesn't seem much risk if you're a die-hard blood fan.
Originally Posted by Terraburn
Bloodworms has no place in a raid dps spec.
Rune Tap is an amazing heal on a 30 sec cd (talented), that can be the difference between living and dieing.
I'm pretty sure that between the two, rune tap definitely has no place in raids. Blood worms are at least passive and offer some dps; with rune tap, you are sacrificing a blood rune for a heal when you should already be receiving 8% of your damage done as heals, iLOTP heals, and of course, heals from healers. Sacrificing a blood rune as blood spec is just silly, when heart strikes hit so hard.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Bloodworms are to high in the tree to take in exchange for DRM. It is really between Blood Aura/Mark of Blood/Rune Tap and Bloodworms.
And Rune Tap DOES have a place in raids. A self heal on a fight like 3D Sarth is a BIG boon especially as Death Strike does jack for a Blood DK on a diseaseless rotation.
Rune tap will save your life, it has mine quite a few times.
I'm not sure if this happens or not but on thadduis its possible bloodworms will get a charge and kill people. DRW did that last night and cost us Undying. :\
Exactly, with Blood given the current tree, not having Rune Tap is wrong. Dead dps = 0 dps.
Normal pets (bloodworms, Ghoul, hunter and warlock pets and maybe DRW) cannot get charges on Thadius. However, it is possible the devs forgot to add DRW to the immune list for charges.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I have been blood for 90% of my Thadd attempts and never had any problem w DRB getting charged. I have run w a gargoyle and that just dies pretty much but since DRB isn't even targetable I can't possibly see how it would get a charge. Maybe I have just been extremely but I doubt it. May want to look into something else causing that wipe.
Bloodworms are to high in the tree to take in exchange for DRM. It is really between Blood Aura/Mark of Blood/Rune Tap and Bloodworms.
And Rune Tap DOES have a place in raids. A self heal on a fight like 3D Sarth is a BIG boon especially as Death Strike does jack for a Blood DK on a diseaseless rotation.
You're missing Hebrew's point completely. In a 51/0/20 spec which is currently argued to be the best blood spec with a rotation like Oblit>Oblit>HS>HS>dumpcity (which may be questionable) which is disease free, all of your runes are being used up without the use of deathrunes. Thus, having the DRM talent is useless.
The point of that being, the three points you would have spent in DRM would then be used to pick up the talents that you had otherwise opted out of, meaning specifically for the 51/0/20 spec that you could theoretically get both talents being argued over.
@frmorrison: It's obvious that deadDPS = ODPS. I'm saying bluntly that, unless you yourself make a pseudo-apocalyptic mistake during an encounter, you don't proactively use IBF/AMS to mitigate incoming damage, or it's already a wipe then.....(assuming an even moderately talented raid) there is just no reason you should need access to that amount of health that fast.
I apologize greatly if this was covered already. I know DRW can be used after Heroism (contrary to other pets) and still receive the benefit, but what about Hysteria? Does DRW assume a %of the dmg buff I already have, or will the DRW cast Hysteria on itself when I cast it? I'd suggest adding this to the FAQ too
I just started using 51/0/20 ob x2, hs x2 rotation, and it was most excellent last night. I didn't get to do Patch with the guild, but was top melee DPS in most encounters.
I have been blood for 90% of my Thadd attempts and never had any problem w DRB getting charged. I have run w a gargoyle and that just dies pretty much but since DRB isn't even targetable I can't possibly see how it would get a charge. Maybe I have just been extremely but I doubt it. May want to look into something else causing that wipe.
Tell that to my raid that lost two achievements because my DRW hit and killed some people.
You're missing Hebrew's point completely. In a 51/0/20 spec which is currently argued to be the best blood spec with a rotation like Oblit>Oblit>HS>HS>dumpcity (which may be questionable) which is disease free, all of your runes are being used up without the use of deathrunes. Thus, having the DRM talent is useless.
The point of that being, the three points you would have spent in DRM would then be used to pick up the talents that you had otherwise opted out of, meaning specifically for the 51/0/20 spec that you could theoretically get both talents being argued over.
Except you can't. If you skip DRM you still have to decide between Bloodworms and Blood Aura/Mark of Blood.
The points you would normally allocate in DRM *must* be spent before you can reach Bloodworms. In fact, they must be spent before you can even get to the fifth tier. This is what clairecakes was noting. All skipping DRM does is make taking Rune Tap (and Imp Rune Tap) easier.
Originally Posted by Zurm
I'm pretty sure that between the two, rune tap definitely has no place in raids. Blood worms are at least passive and offer some dps; with rune tap, you are sacrificing a blood rune for a heal when you should already be receiving 8% of your damage done as heals, iLOTP heals, and of course, heals from healers. Sacrificing a blood rune as blood spec is just silly, when heart strikes hit so hard.
Unless there is another Blood DK in the raid you can't both have 8% healing and Bloodworms at the same time. Blood isn't the premier spec for raiding DKs, and as such it's likely that you are the go to person for providing that aura. This brings it back to the choice Lazareth noted, 1% personal DPS versus significant raid utility.
It's also a little much to say Rune Tap has no place in raids. It's not meant as a tool to top yourself off, but as an emergency, live saving heal. It's irrelevant whether a Heart Strike would do more damage if you don't live to keep DPSing. Obviously, this situation is increasingly rare as more and more guilds put Naxx on farm, but before long progression will continue, and with it the hard situations where healers have to choose between tanks/key roles and you.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
I apologize greatly if this was covered already. I know DRW can be used after Heroism (contrary to other pets) and still receive the benefit, but what about Hysteria? Does DRW assume a %of the dmg buff I already have, or will the DRW cast Hysteria on itself when I cast it? I'd suggest adding this to the FAQ too
I just started using 51/0/20 ob x2, hs x2 rotation, and it was most excellent last night. I didn't get to do Patch with the guild, but was top melee DPS in most encounters.
I am pretty sure that the rune weapon only benefits from Hysteria if it has already been cast on yourself. I believe this to be true because when you pop Hysteria with your dancing rune weapon already out, you get two buffs of Hysteria on yourself. You suffer the extra 1% damage a second, but you don't gain the extra damage, since enrage effects do not stack.
I am not completely sure if he benefits once he is already out, but I definitely know that you are the one that gets the extra Hysteria buff.
02/10/09, 9:47 PM
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