where:
bwd - base weapon damage
nws - normalized cooficient (3.3 for two-handed weapons)
AP - attack power
so... if my math is correct then 8xHS + 2xOB scales a bit better
For example if you have 4k AP unbaffed and 6.5k (?) baffed and your bwd = 700 we get:
8xHS/2xOb unbaff - 8.64 * 700 + 2970 + 2.35 * 4000 = 18 418
8xHS/2xOb baff - 8.64 * 700 + 2970 + 2.35 * 6500 = 24 293
baffed better on 32%
But....one of the reasons I tried 4/4 vs 8/2 is because I was hitting the GCD cap and wasting RP. The above math assumes equally efficient use of RP, doesn't it? 4/4 uses 2 fewer GCDs.
But....one of the reasons I tried 4/4 vs 8/2 is because I was hitting the GCD cap and wasting RP. The above math assumes equally efficient use of RP, doesn't it? 4/4 uses 2 fewer GCDs.
Are other people using all their RP no problem?
It's depend too much factors which can be carefully researched. As U can see from my math where is about 3-4k raw damage difference w/o armor, crit and many other things calculation... for example if you have sigil your 4/4 will be more close to 8/2... too many dactors for absolute correct answer. from my points of view and my test on dummy 6/3 rotation is better than 8/2 or 4/2.
edit: on second thought, I don't know enough about how the BS glyph applies to fix your math (does it multiply final damage, or weapon damage?), but I'm pretty sure it widens the gap.
edit2: on third thought, your math doesn't make any sense. I will eat my hat if the oblit glyph (and the BS glyph) only multiplies BWD. I didn't say anything about Bloody Strikes' 1.3 multiplier only applying to BWD because I'm not a regular to this thread, but that might need fixing, too.
Last edited by Goetterdaemmerung : 02/22/09 at 7:59 PM.
Hrm, I pulled 6550 DPS on PW tonight using 51/0/20 diseaseless and I was using the 2x oblit/2x hs rotation with a 2:35 kill time. I thought about using the 6x HS rotation but I had no clue how I would be able to fit in all those GCD's so that I could properly dump all my runic power and work in Sudden Death procs. I was casting something every single GCD with no downtime so I have no clue how you are supposed to get 2 more GCD's in. I'll try it next week though.
I'm trying to visualize a 6 HS diseaseless rotation in Excel. However, being quite new to the DK class, one question about the Rune refresh system.
I know there is a 'buffer' in the 10 second refresh time that gets accounted for if you don't use up the rune immediately after it has been refreshed, which will be substracted from the next 10 second refresh window (bringing it down to 8 seconds).
But what happens after these 2 seconds? Are they completely dropped and the refresh time is back to 10 seconds, or does the timer simply stop at 2 seconds, no matter when you actually use the rune? Or is there another timer of x seconds, in which you have to use this rune, or the 2 seconds are dropped (e.g. you have 4 more seconds after the 2 seconds have passed to use that rune to benefit from an 8 second refresh timer, after that it's back to 10)?
The current sheet looks like a mess. Blood runes being preferred over death runes and the 'frost' death rune from the second Obliterate being preferred over the 'unholy' death rune from the first are screwing things pretty much over.
And, just for confirmation, Death Coil's GCD does benefit from haste, right?
As a reult, we're just not sure DKs need hot removal, and consequently, that would allow us to justify bringing up the damage of Plague Strike to where players weren't so loathe to hit the button, which might also make "diseaseless rotations" less attractive.
That is the history of the feature, since you asked.
But even if they up PS (unless they clearly up PS...) with the upcomming 3.1 patch 51/0/20 diseaseless 8*HS/2*OB will dominate DK PvE DPS with auto-Sdeath procs and ArmP instead of expertise.
The numbers I gave much deeper in the thread compared a diseaseless rotation vs a disease rotation.
I didn't give numbers for a OB*4/HS*4 because It dealt less damage. But I didn't count in the extra 5% Cc or the 10 bonus RP for OB from t7 bonuses. Truly the difference is minimal (ran the math again) but for the moment OB*4/HS*4 is superior to HS*8/OB*2.
With upcomming 3.1 it's another story.
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
Looked at Serpion's math, and i'm somewhat confused as to why the damage modifier on oblit is 602. Tooltip says 292 and after x1.2 from glyph comes out to 350.4. Was he applying disease modifiers for a diseaseless rotation? Anyways, 2xOB 8xHS is 864% wpn dmg + ~2998, 4xOB 4xHS is 792% + ~2549.
So, 8xHS rotation does more damage than 4xOB rotation, but requires 2 more GCD that would otherwise go towards DC. I'm confidant that 2x DC > 72% wpn dmg + 449.
This is all only assuming OB glyph, NOT BS glyph, and not crits (OB has 5% more crit chance from T7).
@Yotka: Not all 3.1 changes are finalized/known. It wouldn't suprise me if they nerfed the base damage of OB in favor of more diseased damage to further push ppl into using diseases.
It's probably too late for suggestions for 3.1 but another option would be to make it so when OB consumes diseases that it creates an old bloodboil effect and does X% (magic?)damage based on the diseases consumed and also the length of those diseases (Lavaburstish?). That could keep things interesting and also make 51/0/20 continue to be viable while including diseases.
I'm fairly certain that the one thing making 8x HS 2x OB less attractive is the extra GCDs. You basically have to waste RP or risk your bloodrunes coming up before you deplete your death runes.
I've done some light testing and for spreadsheet math 6x HS 3x OB comes pretty close (within 1-2%) to 8x HS 2x OB and has a bit of GCD relief, less wasted RP and a lot less timing issues. To make 8xHS 2xOB work you would pretty much need a 0 latency (I assume most outside of the western US average 150+)
And, just for confirmation, Death Coil's GCD does benefit from haste, right?
I don't know the details of the rune refresh speed, but Death Coil (as well as all DK "spells"--IT, HB, BB, D&D to name the ones off the top of my head) have their GCDs shortened by spell haste.
I'm guessing the Sdeath proc's gcd will be linked to the HS gcd so we don't have "time bomb" like Sdeath procs.
Could be fun in PvP though
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
Looked at Serpion's math, and i'm somewhat confused as to why the damage modifier on oblit is 602. Tooltip says 292 and after x1.2 from glyph comes out to 350.4. Was he applying disease modifiers for a diseaseless rotation? Anyways, 2xOB 8xHS is 864% wpn dmg + ~2998, 4xOB 4xHS is 792% + ~2549.
So, 8xHS rotation does more damage than 4xOB rotation, but requires 2 more GCD that would otherwise go towards DC. I'm confidant that 2x DC > 72% wpn dmg + 449.
This is all only assuming OB glyph, NOT BS glyph, and not crits (OB has 5% more crit chance from T7).
I'm still unhappy with most of his math, so let's not use it further until he responds.
Furthermore, you seem to think that 4/4 achieves two more DCs than 8/2, and you didn't explain how you arrive at this. I think it's incorrect.
Serpion's math may be quite flawed, but I think once someone does the correct math, they will find he arrives at the correct conclusion:
4/4: lower weapon damage, 140 RP (3 death coils), 16.5/20 seconds used including deathcoils (18/20 seconds every other rotation, from spare RP); effectively 3.5 deathcoils
8/2: higher weapon damage, 130 RP (3 death coils), 19.5/20 seconds used including deathcoils (21/20! seconds every *fourth* rotation, from spare RP); effectively 3 deathcoils?
The general argument is that 8/2 provides more damage because it yields more weapon damage. Serpion's math above forgot the BS glyph, and probably misapplied the OB glyph and Bloody Strikes, but I suspect that 8/2 will overtake 4/4 by around one full weapon-damage. On the other hand, 8/2, at 19.5/20 seconds used, is pretty tight. With some math, you can decide whether its increased weapon-damage overcomes its (maximum of) 0.5 DC shortfall from 4/4. Then you add the consideration that 4/4 is more forgiving/flexible by having spacer-GCDs.
To say that 8/2 loses 2x DC over 4/4 is simply misinformation.
Last edited by Goetterdaemmerung : 02/23/09 at 11:12 PM.
* Blood Aura: Replaced with Improved Blood Presence. This allows the deathknight to keep the healing from damage done bonus of Blood Presence in any presence, and increases healing received while in Blood Presence.
* Blood-Gorged now grants armor penetration instead of expertise.
* Bloody Strikes now increases Blood Boil damage instead of Pestilence.
* Bloodworms now heal more.
* Dancing Rune Weapon: Fixed a bug making it trigger an unusual number of effects from the weapon equipped by the Death Knight. In addition, it will now only echo Death Knight spells whose primary purpose is dealing damage. Also corrected a bug making the effect last 8 seconds longer than intended.
* Scent of Blood will now proc on a dodge, parry or taking damage, and internal cooldown lowered to 10 from 20 sec.
* Sudden Doom now procs a free Death Coil instead of requiring you to push the button. Ranks reduced from 5 to 3.
I'm not sure if it's just me, but I don't really see any promising changes to blood ... in fact, they seem like nerfs in some regard. No more Blood aura (There goes some of our heavy raid utility)? A nerf to DRW 9I seem to recall it not lasting as long as it was supposed to, but they're saying it lasted longer??)?
Yeah the Sudden Doom proc is nice, Improved Blood Presence is kind of nice (being able to DPS in Unholy Presence), ... I guess I was just hoping for more.
On the plus side, Chillblains being moved to where Glacier Rot is to accommodate the Blood Strike glyph (thus not having to rely on another class for the debuff), and Black Ice increasing shadow damage again, make 51/13/7 look like an attractive spec once more. (Then again, Epidemic is now three ranks, not two. Dang.)
I know, these aren't all the changes to come through the pipeline. Here's hoping for some positive changes in the near future.
This isn't documented, but I noticed that heart strike now receives a 10% bonus for each disease on the target as opposed to the flat bonus it is now. Scourge strike received the same treatment and I'm guessing obliterate did as well. Surely that's a buff. On the other hand, Morbidity being moved to T2 in the unholy tree makes 51/13/7 look a lot less attractive. The runic power mastery talent swap is a buff to DRW if you choose to spec into it.
It seems with the talent changes a Blood build can also now get a permaghoul using something like 51/0/20 My first question on this was how the new improved Death Strike would work so I grabbed some earlier math I was playing with and adapted it for Oblit Vs. DS. Feel free to correct me on where I screwed up. This is just a rough draft and was done pretty quickly. This dosn't include raid bonus' or talents beyond Might of Morgraine, Vicious Strikes, and Imp Death Strike
It seems w/ Imp Death Strike and Vicious strikes it comes down to the 6% increased crit. And Oblit also benifits much more from the glyph and diseases as well as T7 Bonuses, have to see what the T8 bonus bring, I am glad it's somewhat similar now though.
Along with the Heart Strike Changes
New HS is
Instantly strike the target and his nearest ally, causing 50% weapon damage plus 368, increased by 10% per disease on the target.
I'm not sure if it's just me, but I don't really see any promising changes to blood ... in fact, they seem like nerfs in some regard. No more Blood aura (There goes some of our heavy raid utility)? A nerf to DRW 9I seem to recall it not lasting as long as it was supposed to, but they're saying it lasted longer??)?
Yeah the Sudden Doom proc is nice, Improved Blood Presence is kind of nice (being able to DPS in Unholy Presence), ... I guess I was just hoping for more.
On the plus side, Chillblains being moved to where Glacier Rot is to accommodate the Blood Strike glyph (thus not having to rely on another class for the debuff), and Black Ice increasing shadow damage again, make 51/13/7 look like an attractive spec once more. (Then again, Epidemic is now three ranks, not two. Dang.)
I know, these aren't all the changes to come through the pipeline. Here's hoping for some positive changes in the near future.
I really wouldn't call the Blood aura a great viability nerf, it's a PvP change really, and quite the buff at that.
The DRW note is attributed to the current DRW/RPM bug where it allows DRW to last for 36 seconds when it shouldn't. It'll stop it doing things like ERW/RT/BT/Strangulate/Arcane Torrent/Death Grip while still mirroring all the abilities that dealdamage.
Epidemic is questionable now, if you play with a 3x Obliterate 51/13/7 (assuming they actually decide to dosomething about making disease rotations look nicer than diseaseless) you could still fit in the entire rotation without the extra 3 seconds. Especially now that Sudden Doom is done for you.
So far im happy with the changes, but they're minor and not convincing me to drop 51/0/20 for 51/13/7 again.
EDIT: Just seen the "Undocumented Changes" from the datamining. As with previous versions where they've second guessed this stuff and been wrong I'll sit and wait for the official word. But it does mean a return to 51/13/7 is on the cards.
Which isn't too bad now that Annihlation has pre points worth speccing into now, but annoying because I was enjoying Corpse Explosion as well as the extra +str talents.
Also the MoM nerf seems a bit off, not quite sure what they're aiming for here if its a burst reduction for baseline increase. Needs an Obliterate change to really improve its position.
Got to say I'm a little underwhelmed so far. MoM nerf is bad. Diseaseless is dead as soon as the patch hits but we all knew that was coming so it isn't really unexpected.
Imp. Blood Aura is nowhere near as good as Imp. Unholy. I seriously hope they rethink this as Imp. Blood is close to trash for a PvE build, whereas 10% faster rune cooldowns is amazing.
The only question I have at the moment is 5/5 necro or 2/5 and 3/3 outbreak. New PS looks really nice.
Nice is an understatement. I probably missed something somewhere (its late and I'm tired), but:
Assuming 2000 average weapon damage as a nice round number:
Heart Strike is 50% weapon damage + 368 + 10% per disease + 45% bloody strikes + 20% glyph when snared
so 1368 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.45 * 1.2 = 2880 average damage non crit. +9% to crit from talents, crits gain +30% damage.
Plague Strike is 50% weapon damage + 189 + 45% outbreak +60% glyph
so 1189 * 1.45 * 1.6 = 2758 average damage non crit. +6% to crit from talents, crits gain +30% damage.
In a general case, assuming that all +y% bonuses are calculated after the static modifier is added (I believe thats how it works) :
Heart Strike: 1.05 x wpn dmg + 772
Plague Strike: 1.16 x wpn dmg + 438
They're disturbingly close, and plague strike scales better. If my napkin math isn't wrong, then plague strike hits as hard as heart strike once you get up to around the 3000 average weapon damage mark. Of course heart strike is still better due to 3% increased crit chance, abominations might procs, sudden doom procs etc, but the raw damage of the 2 is a lot closer than I would have thought.
Last edited by Trifle : 02/24/09 at 7:09 AM.
Reason: big font equations make my head hurt
It seems with the talent changes a Blood build can also now get a permaghoul using something like 51/0/20 My first question on this was how the new improved Death Strike would work so I grabbed some earlier math I was playing with and adapted it for Oblit Vs. DS. Feel free to correct me on where I screwed up. This is just a rough draft and was done pretty quickly. This dosn't include raid bonus' or talents beyond Might of Morgraine, Vicious Strikes, and Imp Death Strike
...
It seems w/ Imp Death Strike and Vicious strikes it comes down to the 6% increased crit. And Oblit also benifits much more from the glyph and diseases as well as T7 Bonuses, have to see what the T8 bonus bring, I am glad it's somewhat similar now though.
...
On the DS vs Oblit tests, were you running the DS glyph? I noticed a 51/2/18 build with perma-ghoul and runic power mastery might help push DS a little higher with the glyph. 2% more damage + 2% for every 5 runic power you have would get you anywhere between 2-54% damage increase to DS. By extending your numbers with my math, if you have 65 or more runic power DS will hit harder.
1456 / 1139 = 1.277
round to 28% needed from DS glyph to surpass oblit,
so 28 - 2 (from glyph by default) = 26% needed from runic power
26 / 2 * 5 = 65 runic power (just over half a bar with runic power mastery).
*hopefully I got the math right*
but if this is the case, looks like we have two options a DS - perma ghoul build or a oblit - annihilation build.
What will happen is, you'll have to manage your rotation and runic power bar more actively. The idea is to remain above 65 rp mark and not cap out. Also dropping below 65 is ok, but you never want to dump all your rp though. It just means you may want to DC once mid-rune rotation, to spread out the runic dump.
*This is just a guess at this point, but I'm thinking it'd work best to run with death coil, death strike, and ghoul for major glyphs.
Last edited by halfpint : 02/24/09 at 12:59 PM.
Reason: glyph suggestion
The question is how much AoE Raiddmg we will see in Ulduar.
If there are more fights like saphiron the perma ghoul as a Blood DK is nothing but crap because it will die very fast without night of the dead, which would make the PS glyphe far superior to the Ghoul glyph (assuming that it stays the way it is).
Last edited by Tharvos : 02/25/09 at 8:08 AM.
My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.
I'll agree with that one. It's hard to ignore the damage it will do though if there isn't aoe damage, since you'll have the strength multipliers from both blood and unholy trees.
02/22/09, 7:12 PM
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