Xaer

its stil a "30%' chance to proc each 3 seconds meaning it wont actualy proc of each swing.

so infact you might end up waiting longer than 5.5 seconds even if you dont have haste

 

Valimar

Just fiddling around on PTR and there's no way in hell that these tooltips are right.

PS/HS have been mentioned several times but I can't for the life of me find an accurate tooltip for Obliterate (because it sure isn't 100% weapon damage+100400 + 12.5 per disease) either I'm blind or clearly in need of sleep but if anyone has the numbers could you let me know? Thanks.


Other than that, despite PTR style crap latency, 51/2/18 with Ghoul out is averaging around 2.7-2.8k DPS with me. Obliterate isn't rewarding RP and the Boss dummy was on 1hp so Necrosis hit for sweet FA, I'm feeling a small, but noticable unbuffed increase in overall DPS. Have to say I'm liking it so far, even if Obliterate feels somewhat underpowered now.

 

◊ Eej

If you can't dump a DC or two during a full rotation then you're not doing a disease rotation correctly.

 

Errrrrrr

I'm pretty sure Oblit is 80% weapon damage + 12.5% per disease. The bonus damage part is messed up, I haven't done any real testing to figure out the exact number. I did however beat on the raid dummy for quite a while, and saw a 200 dps increase without using ghoul (or any other cooldowns), from 2800ish diseaseless on live, to about 3k on PTR. With the new 38 seconds DRW, and vastly superior scaling on the strikes, I expect blood to get a very significant buff in raids.

Furthermore, I tried out the 51/2/18 spec with the traditional cycle of OB -> PS -> IT -> HSx6 cycle, and it turns out that it loses to the death strike cycle of PS -> IT -> HSx2 -> DS -> DS -> HSx6. This is without the DS glyph, too. Additionally, I have tested with both dark rider and haunted dreams sigils, and it seems like haunted dreams is on top in all setups. Once again, this is all unbuffed, no cd use, no debuff from other players on the dummy. I don't have any SS for my recount, the sessions I did are all longer than 10 minutes.

Something else I've noted just a few hours ago. I saw an AP drop from live to PTR, with identical gear and almost identical spec. I realize we're missing 2% Str from unholy now, but the actual difference on character sheet is almost 400 AP. I'll check again if that's from a loss of base Str, or something else weird. If only I wasn't crashing every few minutes.

 

Volde

Considering the changes to pestilence (no more dmg) and the new glyph

Glyph of Pestilence *new* -- Your Pestilence ability now refreshes disease durations on your primary target back to their maximum duration.

Do you think will be worth it a rotation with pestilence instead of It/ps? Could somone post some napkin math?

 

Kimie

Right now, Bladed Armour isn't giving any benefit.

 

Tharvos

I think i will go with this one:

51 0 20

Using DS instead of OB. But this makes the t7 setbonus completly worthless and there is no usefull Sigil out there...
I have to decide between the Dark Rider and the Deathcoil sigil.

I don't understand why Blizzard still failes to add Sigils that are usefull for every talenttree.
Give us an updated level 80 version of the Dark Rider Sigil!



EDIT:

Another thing that comes to my mind:

As a blood DK without annihilation you have two possible rotations in 3.1:

a) IT > PS > HS > HS > OB > IT > PS > and so on
or
b) IT > PS > HS > HS > DS > DS and so on

The second one (b) would allow you to use 6x HS in the following cycle which meens more sudden doom procs!
So even if DS is still inferior to OB, the combination of 2 DS + 6 HS vs 1 OB + 1 IT + 1 PS + 4 HS should be much higher or at least equal.

But right now i can't test it, because the EU PTRs won't let me copy my char so if someone else is willed to test this let me know your results.

My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.

 

EwokChilli

Well, one perk to not using T7 is that we can go with BiS without any qualms now. A lot of questions are also related to whether or not the Pestilence Glyph is major or minor. We already got about 4 major glyphs to choose from (DS, BS, Ghoul, DC). So, if it's a major, then that'll be problematic, but at least PS hits hard enough that it's not so dreadful to apply those diseases anymore. Will probably end up with a pretty standard
IT PS DS HS HS DC -> DS HS HS HS HS DC ->repeat from beginning
It really does hurt to not have Oblit for the T7 RP bonuses though. Hopefully Ulduar will have new set bonuses that affect DS or BS/HS.

 

Tharvos

Updated my previous post, maybe you like to read that as well because it maybe "compensates" the lost of the t7 setbonus.

My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.

 

EwokChilli

So... how do you have 8 runes? I want that set bonus.
It's either DSx2 HSx8 (110 RP)(full 20sec rotation) or OBx2 ITx1 PSx1 HSx6 (110-140 RP)(full 20 second rotation) or DSx2 ITx1 PSx1 HSx6 (110-120 RP)(full 20 second rotation) The RP generation dependent on glyphs. I'll be interested to see how things turn out by the end of PTR.

 

Tharvos

Final rotation would be

IT > PS > HS > HS > DS > DC > DS > HS > HS > HS > HS > HS > HS > DC (diseases fall off) > DC > Repeat

or

IT > PS > DS > HS > HS > DC > DS > HS > HS > HS > HS > HS > HS > DC (diseases fall off) > DC > Repeat

depends on what feels better in terms of runecooldowns.

The complete circle would have a 22,5 sec duration and the diseases would have 21 sec.
So it fits very well because the last DC in the rotations would land after the diseases fall off.
And maybe it is possible to fit in one of the 3 DCs between a HS or DS because of runecooldowns.

But again, currently i am not able to test this on the ptr, because my charcopy is still pending, but i hope that it will work the way it sounds on paper.

That long rotation would generate +10 RP for each round without Butchery and 19 with Butchery talent.


edit:

Yes it should be possible to fit in one of the 2 final DCs after the DS > HS > HS > HS > HS part, while you are waiting for the 2 deathrunes to cooldown for the last 2 HS.

My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.

 

EwokChilli

bbffuu - IT (0.0)
bbxfuu - PS (1.5)
bbxfxu - HS (3.0)
xbxfxu - HS (4.5)
xxxfxu - DS (6.0)
xxxxxx - DC (7.5)
xxfxxx - DC? (9.0)
xxfxux - DS (10.5)
bxxxxx - HS (12.0)
xbxxxx - HS (13.5)
xxxdxd - HS (15.0)
xxxxxd - HS (16.5)
xxxxxx - DC (18.0)
xxxxxx - DC? (19.5)
repeat from beginning (21.0)
Full rotation is 18 seconds (20.5 for rune refreshes).

 

Darian_TruBlade

If you're attempting a DS rotation/build realize that in order for DS' damage to be competitive with OB it needs as much Runic Power as possible. Going by the tooltips for OB and its glyph it is effectively 131.5% weapon damage versus DS' 118.6% (maximum at 130 RP). Keeping that gap as small as possible is important.

For example:
Both times DS is used in this rotation we dump RP immediately or almost immediately beforehand. The maximum RP for the first DS, sans glyph, is 70 and for the second 65, leaving them at ~100% weapon damage. That's 20% lost damage simply due to placement in the rotation.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Tharvos

Well as I said above, the question is how much "bonusdmg" those additional HS and SD Procs will give compared to a rotation where you use Obliterate twice during the same timeframe because it eats your diseases.

I still hope that the total DMG of the DS rotation will be at least equal to that "normal" oblit + it > ps rotation.
You can't say the dmg lost is 20% total.
This is right when you compare OB and DS directly, but you must take a look at the overall rotation or am i wrong?

Can someone do the math for the avg total dmg with an old OB rotation compared to that double DS rotation?

I also don't understand why they give all +dmg glyphs a flat +20% amount while the DS glyph stays at this clunky 2% for each 5 RP... That somehow doesn't feel right. If it is because of a flat +20% amount would be imbalanced in pvp or where ever, than i don't understand why they add a flat +30% dmg talent... I hope you got the picture.

My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.

 

Darian_TruBlade

It's not just a question of "bonusdmg" or comparing DS and OB directly. There are four or more obvious questions regarding DS builds that we lack the answers to. Here are the four that immediately sprung to my mind.

1) What is the optimal positioning of DS in a rotation for a DS build?
2) Is there a place for OB in a DS build rotation?
3) How does the overall damage of a DS build compare to an OB build with Annihilation?
4) How does the overall damage of a DS build compare to an OB build without Annihilation?

What I was getting at in picking apart your rotation was question #1. The 20% damage lost wasn't in comparison to OB but to DS itself. Half or more of the glyph's effectiveness is lost through your rotation.

Also, the reason why the glyph is different from the talent is extremely simple: The glyph is available to all DKs and the talent is not.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

methods

IT PS HS HS DS DC DC
DS HS HS HS HS DC DC

Is a very solid rotation and may be the new standard for 51/0+/18+
My spreadsheets (though still being error checked) are showing an average hit of 3100-3900 dmg depending on RP levels. Oblit in the same build averages around 4300 but you have to deal with a lot stricter rotations and disease ticks being lost. I'm pretty sure Blizzard intended to give DS a place in proper dps builds and this may be what does it. It makes sense (Keep yourself topped up even during aoe damage for blood gorged) and it is obviously a permanent direct counter to diseasless specs.

Also, to comment on placement of DS in the rotation for max RP multipliers, you would need to also consider wasted RP when over cap as well as the ever present concern of GCDs. As far as I can tell with the second DS used there is no avoiding the loss in RP conversion without wasting RP.

Edit: I also ran a standard OB rotation with consideration of Ghoul uptime differences and 51/13/7 and the DPS was almost identical (CORRECTION: Approximately 2-3% in DS's favor)

Edit 2: I just checked the max crit possible for DS (without any RP) and its maybe a few % lower than OB's Max crit (assuming the two crit multipliers are multiplicative). So when you crit you won't notice a difference between the two aside from the massive healing gained and the DoTs still ticking.

 

NeuronRider

Just at a cursory glance, it seems like the best way to maximize RP before each DS, if in fact that's the favorable situation, would be to forgo the disease bonus on HS during the starter rotation and do:

HS > HS > PS > IT > DS > DCx2
HS > HS > DS > HS > HS > DCx2

With the DC glyph and Butchery that should be doable.

I haven't fully formulated it yet, but I'm bandying about the idea of whether or not it'd be worth it to use the Pestilence glyph and sacrifice a HS. Something like:

HS > HS > PS > IT > DS > DCx2
Pest > HS > DS > HS > HS > DCx2
Pest > HS > HS > HS > DS > DCx2 (RP for 2?) <Repeat Lines 2 & 3>

Dunno bout that though. Now that I've actually written it down, it doesn't look like you actually gain anything at all

 

Odii

Get epidemic and don't repeat the Pest on line 3. Whether it does more damage is solely dependent on if IT+PS<1HS.

 

methods

This rotation (the first one mentioned) does in fact work out to be a very very slight increase theoretically. It does however require a point in RP Mastery in order to not waste RP. Whether that point could be better spent depends on if you want BcB or not.

As for Pest being a viable replacement for IT+PS I would venture to say no. It's kind of a toss up though when considering the balance between GCDs as well as RP (IT Glyph?).

 

Gehenna

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9614

I'm not really seeing how diseaseless is going to out damage old school 51/13/7 in a raid.

PS, IT, OB, HS, HS, DC, DC (IT glyph, DC glyph, 4/5: 75 power, 64 used)
..., OB, OB, HS, HS, DC, DC (75 power, 64 used)

There are even points floating around in the build that could go other places. Toughness over black ice would be a solid example.

 

methods

What are you talking about? Who here is arguing 'for' diseaseless? It's dead. No reason to talk about it anymore. As far as I can tell the only few options are what you suggested, a DRM HS rotation and finally, a 51/0+/18+ Deathstrike build. All three rely heavily on diseases.

Also, in regards to your Obliterate heavy suggestion you will find that if lag isn't too terrible a DRM HS rotation will do more dps in general. Even with sigil of awareness. Like someone said a few pages back "If you like OB so much you should probably consider frost".

 

Gehenna

Isn't this false? When considering Pestilence in rotations, you are weighing OB/DS + HS + Pest versus IT + PS + HS + HS.

 

Muadibz

At a quick glance,

Looking at this rotation you throw in 2 DC's right before your next DS. If you're using the Glyph this would mean a loss of 64 runic power and if you're not using the Glyph a loss of 80 RP before your next DS. That would mean your DS just lost (64/5) * 2 = 24% damage in the first case and 32% damage in the second case.

Is it actually still worth it to dump Runic Power in the space where you're waiting on the runes to cooldown in order to DS again, considering the huge loss in DS damage?

EDIT: After reading your post again I saw your comment on the placement of the 2nd DS. So in other words mathematically we should find that DC + DC > (DS - 24% or 32% Damage)?

Can someone on the PTR (Woot for 4 days Char Copy Queues) do out some math on the relative strength of DS based on Runic Power vs the other strikes? Specifically

1) How much runic power do you need for DS to hit as hard, or harder, than OB.
2) For the 2 Runes is there any amount of Runic Power where DS will hit Harder than HS + HS? (unlikely I know)
3) Is DC + DC In fact stronger than a DS with +24% or +32% damage? Including Downtime waiting for DS to come back up?



As a thought, does someone want to compile all the information so far and start a new thread about Blood DK's in 3.1? This thread seems to mainly (for the first 40+ pages or so) contain information on how to play a blood DK in 3.08/9. Might be time for a new thread to discuss all this, specifically for blood.

 

Gehenna

Correct, my semantics were wrong. What I meant by diseaseless was the neo-disealess unholy sub specs that are being discussed here.

I'm still sort of in a world where diseasless was called lazy blood, lol.

 

Leaflock

Diseaseless won't, but some variation on 51/0/20 definitely will. They've made 51/13/7 actually less appealing than before. Namely:

1) Morbidity is no longer accessible to 51/13/7, unless you take two points in it instead of Epidemic.

2) Epidemic is less necessary.

3) 13 points in frost gets you even less frost bonus damage than before, when it was already a minimal dps increase. Bonus shadow damage on Black Ice isnt' on the PTR yet, and they took it out when it was in beta, so I'm not holding my breath. On the other hand, having Runic Power Mastery there is a decent perk for DRW.

4) Nothing was changed about the fact that Necrosis is better than any of those other talents. A mere 16 points in Unholy can now get you Morbidity, Necrosis, and a perma-ghoul.

Obliterate got nerfed; Heart Strike buffed. There's no reason to prioritize Obliterate anymore with a build like 51/13/7. Considering DS will be comparable and the talents down the unholy tree are now vastly superior, I think the choice is pretty obvious now.

edit: sloooooooooww