It's very reliable i can screw up the rotation some and still keep it up. I dps'd the boss target dummy for like 5 mins with no prob. Those 2 cooldowns at the start are not an issue. I think you miss the point where i said you use the 2 cooldowns initially. After that you are using my 2nd line of skills throughout the rest of the fight. You aren't relying on erw and blood tap the entire time. Just at the start.
For sure, I understood that part. The part that concerns me is relying on a 5 min cooldown at the beginning of your rotation. Say you're on a progression boss, wiping, having a great time (lol). If you pop ERW at the beginning of an attempt and then wipe, you're gonna have to wait for your cooldown before you can pull the boss or your rotation will be very messed up. That is the aspect that I do not like.
you don't have to use the cooldowns. it just gets you into the rotation quicker. 5 minute cooldown is nothing though if you wipe it'l be up next attempt by the time you are cr'd and buffed.
All you have to do for Grimaxe's rotation to work fine is to just do IT PS DS HS HS DC, then the next pass around you can start doing his rotation of IT PS HS HS HS HS DC OB DC IT PS HS HS HS HS DC OB DC (repeat). Although, the timing looks like it could get clunky kind of quick due to the need for the OB death runes for the HS that are only 7.5 seconds after your OB.
Here is the rotation that I have had the most success with. There are a few factors though that are out of my control, those being I cant get the new DC glyph that reduces the RP cost by 8 and obliterate isn't generating any RP on its own atm.
Also, since DRW is also broken, I have been thinking about using UB instead of DRW. Im finding UB to be about
4-5% of my damage. Im also finding that UB hits harder then a DC if the DC doesn't crit but without the DC glyph Im not sure that UB can be better.
Currently I have 4pc and The Jawbone. Im using Sigil of Awarness because I don't have anything else to use. I wonder if the DC sigil would out perform here with sudden doom procs. I have foregone blood-Caked Blades as it has only been about 1.5% of my overall damage for 3 points and I needed room for 2/2 Epidemic
Glyphs currently being used are Ghoul, Obliterate, Plaguestrike.
Optimally I would use Ghoul, Bloodstrike, and Deathcoil.
With this set up unbuffed I was able to sustain 3100dps. This is with a 0HP dummy so there was no necrosis damage.
Here is the rotation.
OB-PS-IT-HS-HS-DC*
HS-HS-DC-HS-HS-OB-DC
PS-IT-HS-HS-HS-HS-DC*-DC-HS-HS-OB-DC
You do the first 2 lines once then repeate the 3ed line over and over.
If done correctly, OB will hit right as diseases are about to fall off. The reason that there are DC inbetween Heart Strikes in the second and third line of the rotation is because you are waiting for your blood runes to refresh. This is how you fit in 6x heart strikes 1x obliterate within the duration of 1 PS-IT.
The DC* are were you would UB instead of DC if UB is better.
Also, since obliterate isn't generating any RP and I dont have the DC glyph to reduce the cost the third line might be able to look like this, with an extra DC.
Considering the changes to pestilence (no more dmg) and the new glyph
Glyph of Pestilence *new* -- Your Pestilence ability now refreshes disease durations on your primary target back to their maximum duration.
Do you think will be worth it a rotation with pestilence instead of It/ps? Could somone post some napkin math?
Well, this itches me a bit. A rotation with Pestilence to refresh diseases would save one GCD at the expense of doing zero damage (as of 3.1, presumably) on that other GCD, and costing a blood rune, which feels rather bad in a Blood build.
But this frees up another pair of UF-runes which allow you to weave another Death Strike or Obliterate into your rotation.
Death Strike theorycrafting is still fresh and new, so i will stay away from that for now.
Obliterate, on the other hand, combined with using glyphed Pestilence to refresh diseases, could resurrect the dreaded x/13/x builds. Due to the shift of Runic Power Mastery, getting Annihilation to switch to a more Obliterate-heavy rotation looks somewhat attractive now, especially when combined with the 4 pieces T7 set bonus.
Though such builds would have to compete with the new perma-Ghoul possibility in 51/0/20 builds.
51/2/18 Option 1 Plenty of room to complete rotations if miss/dodge
51/2/18 Option 2 Just enough time to complete rotations w/o miss/dodge
I have also come across a similar rotation being the best for me so far, however I was sporting DS for OB. So, 2/2 improved Death Strike, DS glyph, IT glyph, glyph of ghoul. DPS on 0 hp lvl 80 boss dummy has sustained around 2.8 to 3k. Rotation go like:
DS>PS>IT>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DC>HS>HS>DS>DC //This first section sets up the infinite cycle to follow
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DS>DC
HS>HS>DS>DC //Then repeat these till boss is dead
***********************************
Now, this can be altered a bit for a different use with OB and possibly substitute IT Glyph for OB glyph along with 4/5 T7.5 set (allows for more RP gain).
OB>PS>IT>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DC>HS>HS>OB>DC //This first section sets up the infinite cycle as before
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DS>DC
HS>HS>OB>DC //Then repeat as before
**Again, this second rotation will give some healing benefit from DS and also DS at that point will have some good RP for some better dmg/healing (keep in mind with 2/2 imp DS, DS glyph, vamp blood @130 RP I've healed myself for 19k so far. This DS in the rotation should help insure you're above the 75% hp marker for the increased dmg output. Also, the OB is being used to not make your current set bonus a waste and generating more RP for getting that nearly 40 sec DRW off when needed.
So, with second version rotation, glyphs I would go with: OB, BS, and will need a math genius to see if Ghoul, or DS glyph is better suited?
DS>PS>IT>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DC>HS>HS>DS>DC //This first section sets up the infinite cycle to follow
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DS>DC
HS>HS>DS>DC //Then repeat these till boss is dead
I'm curious about this rotation. Are the DCs in the infinite cycle singular or do they indicate spamming? Your glyph choice doesn't make much sense in the former case, as casting two DCs in the full cycle is 80 RP spent against the 110 RP generated. In that case using the IT and DC glyphs are unnecessary. Either way the IT glyph seems unnecessary as the DC glyph covers you for up to 3 DCs, but at four you're facing a Runic Power loss each cycle with or without the IT glyph.
It would be rather phenomenal if the infinite cycle was maintainable with only two DCs, as it would open up our glyph choices more. Being able to pick two rather than one of the BS/DRW/Ghoul glyphs is significant.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
Ya i agree with you on the glyph choice, but I simply put in the icy touch atm on ptr due to the fact that oblit currently awards 0 rp (bug), and it's near impossible to get the new glyphs yet. So, since the new DC glyph saves 8rp (per user's cast) I figured using the icy touch glyph (gain 10rp) would give me a sense of what things will be like as far as RP gain/loss.
As for the infinite rotation section, yes only 1 DC when noted. It's about all you'll have time for without meshing GDC's and taxing the RP gain. Due to raid mechanics and buffs the DC's will probably move a bit due to haste effects changing the GCD's a bit, so I'm expecting there will be some improvisation at times.
I would like to add that after I posted the previous. I tried using the 2nd option spec w/ the OB rotation, using DS,OB,HS glyphs and was in the range of 3 to 3.1k sustained on the dummy. Maybe the PS glyph could replace the DS glyph? Still unsure about which glyphs will work out the best atm. Yes I know the dummys don't mean a whole lot, but as far as monitoring base dmg output of different specs & rotations, it helps paint the picture.
...was just able to get into PTR with the boss dummy having enough HP to do a good 5min 'ish rotation. DRW/Hysteria used once.
Then repeatedly
DS-DS-DC-DC-Pest-HS-HS-HS-HS-HS-DC-HS-HS
Presence:
-----------
Blood
Glyphs:
--------
Death Coil (assuming that the disease refresh is minor, if its major, replace this glyph and drop a DC)
Blood Strike
Death Strike
96 RP used, 8 generated from butchery (2 wasted) 110 generated RP, total of 22 wasted. 120ish RP for first Death Strike, 130 for 2nd.
Rotation should work because the first death strike is delayed, causing the death runes to come back quicker and in time for the 3rd and 4th HS, while the 5th and 6th HS are delayed, causing the death runes to come back quicker to make the 2nd DS in time. RP is kept high for both death strikes to maximize damage. Death coils could be skipped.
I did about 2800 without Hysteria and DRW.
I only did about 2600 with the other talents i tryed.
Maybe i couldnt do higher because of me but still this is the case.
Also i was thinking about a rotation with the new pestilence glyph witch would go as this:
(1)IT PS OB HS HS
(2)OB OB HS pest
(3)OB OB HS HS
Start with 1 and the repeat 2 and 3.
But i couldnt try this because i could get the new glyphs
Any thoughts on this, or anything else im doing wrong or my glyps?
I would appreciate any good advice
With the changes to HS, i'm confidant that 2xHS > 1xOB. If you're finding yourself GCD restricted then OBx2 HSx2 should work fine. Also with the change to Sudden Doom, more HS are even better.
I've tested Abrams' rotation and it can be continued indefinitely. It's also fairly easy to quantify the effects of haste on the rotation.
Only IT and DC are affected by haste, so for each 1% haste we reduce the duration of the first section by .03 seconds, and the second by .015. However, due to the nature of the rotation we can't start the next section any sooner. As such, any haste simply creates a gap between sections.
Unless Blizzard starts throwing haste itemization on our sets this won't be much of a problem. Even with 10% haste on gear and a WoA totem you'll be "losing" .64 seconds each repetition. Human error and latency being what they most of this gap is likely to be filled by simple imprecision; a .05 second margin of error per GCD is enough. The only major problem is Bloodlust, where you're likely to reach 1 second GCDs on IT and DC and thus experience .5-1 second gaps between sections. Whereas normally it would delay and destablize the rotation, it's probably worth the loss in DC damage to fill these one or both of these gaps with DCs.
More interesting is that the entire rotation is ~18 seconds in length, meaning that only one point in Epidemic will be necessary. In fact, you could skip it entirely without losing HS damage so long as diseases stay at 15 seconds (though you'd lose healing off the second DS). That reduces the number of desireable talent points in Tier 2 Unholy from 8 to 6, which makes later choices less restrictive.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
I've tested Abrams' rotation and it can be continued indefinitely. It's also fairly easy to quantify the effects of haste on the rotation.
Only IT and DC are affected by haste, so for each 1% haste we reduce the duration of the first section by .03 seconds, and the second by .015. However, due to the nature of the rotation we can't start the next section any sooner. As such, any haste simply creates a gap between sections.
Unless Blizzard starts throwing haste itemization on our sets this won't be much of a problem. Even with 10% haste on gear and a WoA totem you'll be "losing" .64 seconds each repetition. Human error and latency being what they most of this gap is likely to be filled by simple imprecision; a .05 second margin of error per GCD is enough. The only major problem is Bloodlust, where you're likely to reach 1 second GCDs on IT and DC and thus experience .5-1 second gaps between sections. Whereas normally it would delay and destablize the rotation, it's probably worth the loss in DC damage to fill these one or both of these gaps with DCs.
More interesting is that the entire rotation is ~18 seconds in length, meaning that only one point in Epidemic will be necessary. In fact, you could skip it entirely without losing HS damage so long as diseases stay at 15 seconds (though you'd lose healing off the second DS). That reduces the number of desireable talent points in Tier 2 Unholy from 8 to 6, which makes later choices less restrictive.
Seems like I'm having better results with this rotation atm:
OB>PS>IT>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DC>HS>HS>OB>DC
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DS>DC
HS>HS>OB>DC (repeating)
I'm using this spec with the included glyphs atm 51/2/18
My only concern at this point is what glyphs will end up being the best used, and how 3/3 BCB compares to 3/3 Morbidity
I didn't see this posted, and if it has been then I apologize. The new pestilence glyph is going to make things very, very easy if it stays around. I can't test this personally, as I don't have access to the glyph myself. If someone does, I'd be interested in hearing how it fares.
The Build - 3 points are left over and at this moment, I'm unsure where to put them. I'm not sure if Epidemic will be needed or if Rune Power Mastery will be beneficial.
IT, PS, DS, HS, HS, DC Dump
DS, HS, HS, HS, Pest, DC Dump
DS, DS, HS, HS, DC Dump
HS, HS, HS, HS, HS, Pest.
Then repeating the 3rd and 4th Rune Set rotations. I would imagine that making use of the DS glyph, you would not want to DC dump after the 4th Rune Set rotation, but again, I haven't done the math or seen an argument as to whether the RP is better used to pop off a few DCs or to buff DS. Of course, these is still far to early in the testing phase of 3.1 to build anything solid.
Edit: I also have a question regarding the cleave effect of Heart Strike. Is the damage formula for the second mob done using the disease multipliers from the first mob, or is the second mob also required to have diseases to receive the added bonus to Heart Strike?
I didn't see this posted, and if it has been then I apologize. The new pestilence glyph is going to make things very, very easy if it stays around. I can't test this personally, as I don't have access to the glyph myself. If someone does, I'd be interested in hearing how it fares.
The Build - 3 points are left over and at this moment, I'm unsure where to put them. I'm not sure if Epidemic will be needed or if Rune Power Mastery will be beneficial.
IT, PS, DS, HS, HS, DC Dump
DS, HS, HS, HS, Pest, DC Dump
DS, DS, HS, HS, DC Dump
HS, HS, HS, HS, HS, Pest.
Then repeating the 3rd and 4th Rune Set rotations. I would imagine that making use of the DS glyph, you would not want to DC dump after the 4th Rune Set rotation, but again, I haven't done the math or seen an argument as to whether the RP is better used to pop off a few DCs or to buff DS. Of course, these is still far to early in the testing phase of 3.1 to build anything solid.
DS, DS, HS, HS, DC Dump
HS, HS, HS, HS, HS, Pest.
I see the interest in saving a GCD for an extra HS, however as convenient as using the new pest glyph like so, I think you're going to lose some dps over time since pest no longer does dmg on its application. With the increase to plague strike (glyphed or not), along with icy touch hit dmg I think it might play out better. Other thing is.. you're dumping your RP before you begin the 2nd section of x6 HS?.. so that means you'll have around 85'ish RP by the time you want to DS again. One other thing is, I wouldn't over look Obliterate for the blood spec rotations, it's hitting rather well still. Guess we'll have to wait till them glyphs are available :p.
Seems like I'm having better results with this rotation atm:
OB>PS>IT>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DC>HS>HS>OB>DC
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DS>DC
HS>HS>OB>DC (repeating)
I'm using this spec with the included glyphs atm 51/2/18
My only concern at this point is what glyphs will end up being the best used, and how 3/3 BCB compares to 3/3 Morbidity
That is very close to the rotation that I posted but instead of death strike I dump runic power there with 2x DC.
With my rotation you dont need runic power mastery and those 2 points can fill out epidemic and morbidity. I guess the diffrence comes down to 1 DS vs 2 or even 3 DCs each rotation if you use the DC glyph.
I would use the DC glyph BS glyph and ghoul glyph.
If there is anyone on test realm that has 4pc betrayer and the DC glyph, I would really like to know what results you can get with my rotation.
Seems like I'm having better results with this rotation atm:
OB>PS>IT>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DC>HS>HS>OB>DC
PS>IT>HS>HS>HS>HS>DS>DC
HS>HS>OB>DC (repeating)
I'm using this spec with the included glyphs atm 51/2/18
My only concern at this point is what glyphs will end up being the best used, and how 3/3 BCB compares to 3/3 Morbidity
There isn't a choice between 3/3 Morbidity and 3/3 BCB, whatever talents aren't spend in Epidemic can only go into Morbidity or Ravenous dead. If you're going to have 1 point in Epidemic, you're going to have at least 1 in Morbidity.
I don't think it's worthwhile to glyph both DS and OB. Assuming 18 second cycles and a 3 minute fight, the difference between glyphing both over only DS is 217% weapon damage over 3 minutes. This does not take into account that DS crits for more damage. The question is, therefore, will 10 seconds of DRW or 3 minutes of a glyphed Ghoul do more than 217% of your weapon damage. I think it's fairly obvious that the DRW glyph is better, though I can't speak to the Ghoul.
I'd personally expect 51/13/7 variants to go for BS/OB/DRW, while 51/2/18|51/0/20 variants go for BS/DS/(DRW|Ghoul).
Regarding the Pestilence glyph/rotation I don't believe it is worth losing any of the other DPS glyphs. We're not as GCD bound given the change to Sudden Doom, so the only inherent benefit in using Pestilence over PS->IT is that it allows you to DS/OB instead of a HS. HS, however, does as much damage as DS if you can benefit from the BS glyph. All you end up doing is losing the damage and RP from hitting PS and IT manually, while forcing your DS's to be used right after you dump RP.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
Regarding the Pestilence glyph/rotation I don't believe it is worth losing any of the other DPS glyphs. We're not as GCD bound given the change to Sudden Doom, so the only inherent benefit in using Pestilence over PS->IT is that it allows you to DS/OB instead of a HS. HS, however, does as much damage as DS if you can benefit from the BS glyph. All you end up doing is losing the damage and RP from hitting PS and IT manually, while forcing your DS's to be used right after you dump RP.
I agree on the new Pestilence glyph, especially if it's a major glyph. There's little to no clear gain from it, and considering that we have a number of good majors to choose from now, this one seems like a waste. The Pestilence glyph in a blood spec essentially trades HS + PS + IT for DS + Refresh. The latter frees up a GCD for a DC, but even then the total damage is either breaking even or a small loss, considering that PS and IT both hit decently now.
I ran the DS build/rotation last night on the PTR for Hodir25 attempts, with a spec essentially identical to the one Abrams posted above. My major glyphs were DS, BS, and Ghoul. My "rotation", like most of the ones posted here, was just a variation on a basic priority system: Use HS as main attack, DS to convert runes, PS + IT to keep up diseases, DC whenever possible. It usually ended up something like PS IT HS HS DS, DS HS HS HS HS. Here are my general impressions, avoiding fight spoilers.
1) The numbers seem good, competitive with the rest of the raid. We weren't in all-out dps mode, since these were learning attempts, but the general damage output was near the top of the list.
2) Death Strike works very well as a dps strike now. DS' raidbuffed damage at decent amounts of RP is comparable to the 3.1 OB. It also has the added benefit of healing for ridiculous amounts. I saw 8k DS crits healing me for 15-16k. This almost seems wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised about nerfs there.
3) It doesn't seem too beneficial to hold off on DCs for a bigger DS. The damage difference in DS is often pretty close to the damage of the DC, and if you're capped out, you lose the RP from the DS itself. However, dumping RP in a set position, right before a DS isn't too good either. The best way seems like a compromise: spread out DCs over the rotation, a lot like the strategy is now for the 2h Frost rotation's FS (in that case, it's for KM procs). It seems reasonable to keep a minimum amount of RP while still never capping out-- essentially, you're only "wasting" the initial minimum amount you earn at the beginning of the fight, like keeping a minimum balance in a checkbook, and the rest of the RP you generate is still used. Basically, avoid the urge to dump.
4) Movement makes this spec/rotation kind of annoying. There's definitely an advantage to the rotations that use UF abilities as a primary attack. Now that blood is forced to use HS, it's a bit more difficult to execute, even though we're less GCD-bound with the new Sudden Doom.
It's not on mmochampion, so I suppose it should be taken with a grain of salt. However, 10 additional seconds of DRW would undoubtedly be superior to doubling up on DS/OB glyphs.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
I also tryed the rotation Leaflock posted and it seems pretty awesome to me, i did 3100 DPS to dummy without Hysteria or DRW and so far this is the best i did and the rotation is really easy since its the same im using on live with 51/13/7 only i OB instead of DS
Also i just read that they nerfed the imp DS talent down to 20% but it procs Abomination's Might, so im asking if this -10% is big nerf to this rotation/build. (i think its not but i want to know your opinions too)
All in all i think ill be going with this talent and rotation in 3.1 if they dont screw it up totally.
3) It doesn't seem too beneficial to hold off on DCs for a bigger DS. The damage difference in DS is often pretty close to the damage of the DC, and if you're capped out, you lose the RP from the DS itself. However, dumping RP in a set position, right before a DS isn't too good either. The best way seems like a compromise: spread out DCs over the rotation, a lot like the strategy is now for the 2h Frost rotation's FS (in that case, it's for KM procs). It seems reasonable to keep a minimum amount of RP while still never capping out-- essentially, you're only "wasting" the initial minimum amount you earn at the beginning of the fight, like keeping a minimum balance in a checkbook, and the rest of the RP you generate is still used. Basically, avoid the urge to dump.
I haven't played frost DPS in PvE so I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you just use DCs at 90-110 RP mark (guessing) regardless of rune cooldowns? I was always under the impression that dumping runes should be a priority over dumping RP.
Also the 15k+ heals are indeed ridiculous, and it deserves to be nerfed, but hopefully they won't nerf the damage portion of DS in the process.
"New talent: Improved Death Strike. Increases Death Strike damage by 10/20." but this is listed under Unholy for some reason? It's either a typo or Blizzard intend to move it from Blood to Unholy (which would seem to make no sense at all).
And as someone said above, Abomination's Might can now proc from Death Strike (although the proc percentage is not yet listed).