Is [Grim Toll] so bad (even for physical strike heavy diseasles blood) that nobody is even considering to use it?

Well i know alot of blood pvp dk's use it and say its great. I would be interested in it maybe for pve raid, i could drop hit stuff to malygos boots and tier 7.5 for Gothik's shoulders. Depends on proc rate really though.

Uptime is exactly 17,64% after several days of logging with procodile
Almost the double procrate and uptime as mirror.

Rawr shows Grim Toll as an upgrade to me over the Mirror of Truth mostly because it will put me past the hit cap again.

I'll be using it with Greatness and dropping the Mirror whenever a Grim Toll decides to drop again. It hasn't for the past couple of weeks.

Please excuse my ignorance... but why are we all of the sudden interested in Armor pen? I realize there is an upcoming change with Blood gorged, but it seems I am missing something important wherein, Armor pen went from some what of a wasted stat to desirable. Which seems counter intuitive with diseaseless supposedly going away. Any clarification would be awesome.

In 3.1 all classes will receive 25% more benefit from Armor Penetration Rating, probably making it quite strong in physical heavy builds (like Blood).

@Trinket issues:
FotFF should be better than Mirror even if it occasionally falls off, I'd only use Bandit's Insignia over it in those fights. My biggest issue with Grim Toll is that it has passive hit rating so it's a bad replacement unless you can change gear to utilize the hit on it.

I wouldn't call it a wasted stat (as it is now) specially for diseaseless, im interested in it mainly as i dont really see 4 pt set bonus being needed for diseasless. So i can swap some of that useless haste on tier gear for quite decent arp which is up or near crit for me (after hit/exp caps and str). As said above its also getting improved and we get blood gorged, currently im at just under 10% arp with blood gorged thats 20%, with buff? im not sure how much, but its looking alot more tasty.. despite the need for diseases.

Currently Mirror + Greatness performs better for me then Grim Toll + Greatness. ArP is nice, but popping DRW during a triple proc of Mirror/Greatness/FC is better in my opinion.

I'm expecting to dust off my Grim Toll come 3.1 though, because I think with the ArP buff it'll win out over Mirror.

If the 25% buff goes through then grim toll will be a 50% decrease in armor. Jeez. 50% from gear/talents is probably possible too.

Isn't that based on luck more than anything? Just what are the chances that you'll see both trinkets plus FC proc in a 5 minute long boss fight?

When does armor pen start to beat out all the other stats(possibly even strength)? Considering that armor pen is one of the few stats that gets better the more you stack it. I am assuming at low values armor pen will continue to be lackluster but there has to be a certain point where it will be alot more valuable as you get closer to 0 armor.

We know that Sunder is going to be a 20% reduction and I think we may get another bonus(5%?) from the new warrior ability. From a couple of other threads they have new boss armor at 10610. Unfortunately, i can't seem to find the scale for amor and damage reduction. A little help is requested on this.

I've found the proc uptime of [Mirror of Truth] to be a bit lackluster, too. Perhaps because it is so easily obtainable and it shouldnt outperform "stronger" trinkets as an ilvl 200 one. Though using DRW while Mirror is procced is definately a nice perk, especially for us Blood DKs.

Currently, I am using [Fury of the Five Flights] because I believe that 320AP (disregarding stacking time) is rivaled only by [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]. And I've found that, if you do it right, your stacks do fall off only very rarely, except in fights like Heigan.
My second trinket slot is occupied by [Bandit's Insignia]. I've acquired it only recently, so I am not quite sure on how it performs, but i expect it to be superior to at least the Mirror of Truth.

With Blood Gorged being changed in 3.1 (I'm expertise (dodge) capped with food right now), I will probably dust off my [Mark of Norgannon]. Sure, the haste from the Use-effect is not our strongest stat, but...hey, it's more than 8 expertise!

This is very very luck reliant. Last night I had maybe two triple procs in 4 hours of raiding, but I was also having a dreaded off-night where I came in 8th/9th most of the night. Just wasn't having one of those days. And the sigil didn't drop .. again .. (ok now im just complaining)

As a few have stated, Mirror has a horrible proc rate, and on any given fight it procs maybe once. Twice if I'm lucky. I think FoFF/Bandits would be better over Mirror, alongside with Greatness. And according to Wowhead, if Bandit's procs while you have DRW up, your DRW will shoot an arcane bolt, too.

You can disregard stack time if you want to but 320 AP is the value of the trinket in a fight of infinite length, not fights of 2-6 mins. In actual practice the fury trinket will always be less than 320 AP, always. Even if you assume an absurd stack rate for a two hand build like 2/sec, on a 3 min fight that's still 10 secs where you only get half the benifit on average which totals ~311 AP. It's important to remember when comparing fury to trinkets with procs and internal cooldowns that 320AP is the upper bound for the trinket's contribution while on proc trinkets the uptime arrived at via proc length / internal cooldown + time to proc is the lower bound for the proc's contribution. Unless the fight ends the exact second a proc trinket comes off cooldown the gains in real raiding are going to be higher than the theory crafted average for an infinite fight.

I haven't run any numbers, but one could make the argument that [Bandit's Insignia] is worse, because the proc does absolutely nothing for DRW, whereas the mirror, when timed right, does.

Yeah, I read that post in the rogue forums, too and i think things are a bit different for DKs.
Firstly, according to the PvE DPS compendium in the Think Tank section, crit rating is not as highly rated in terms of AEP like it may be for rogues. This already tips the balance a bit.
Secondly, the assumption of getting a Mirror of Truth proc in the first few seconds and then again only a few seconds after the internal cooldown expires is a bit exaggerated, based on my personal observations. We need hard data on this, but in my experience, that is not the case. So FotFF is still my personal first choice.

But you are totally right, stacking time DOES matter; FotFF provides an average 320AP only when fight length approaches infinity. On the other hand, when using DRW, i actually DO have those 320 AP to get more out of it. Just like you have an extra 1000 AP when using DRW in conjunction with a proc'd Mirror of Truth. Except i do not have to wait for a proc

Once or twice seems really low. Three to four seems more accurate for Mirror on most bosses.

Taking into account how most of these trinkets work getting Mirror+Greatness to proc at the same time isn't too hard, especially given the uptime of Greatness. This of course has to be weighed against the boss you are fighting at the time. As long as you are constantly DPSing the boss in the beginning of the fight with a little luck you should get the triple proc.

Last night in Naxx25 I had 6k AP buffed with 39.8% crit, and benefited from a triple proc for nearly half the boss fights, and on some fights like Patchwerk where we bloodlust in the beginning just added to the shredding.

Unfortunately though Heart Strike was bugged for me last night as no matter what I put in my action bar it was doing Rank 1 damage and not benefiting from the BS glyph. I was still able to score up to 4.5-5k DPS on some fights, but was finishing most boss fights at between 5th-10th on the meters. Reason I mention this is because I had SS of last week's Naxx for a few bosses in military using Mirror+Greatness, and last night I was gonna test those bosses with Grim Toll instead and compare, but because of the bug I respecced DW in the beginning of military wing.

The only trinket I'm focusing on grabbing now is FoTFF to replace Mirror because it averages out to more constant AP, but I don't think Bandit's is better than Mirror. Our other core raiding DK is currently using a Bandit's, which replaced Sphere of Red Dragon, and he isn't seeing a giant DPS increase. With a low proc chance that is quite lackluster considering its 45 sec ICD the only good thing about Bandit's is the 190 AP, which I think both FoTFF beats and Mirror beats slightly.

Even with around a 17% uptime (forgot where I read this, but seems accurate) its up for 30 seconds in a 3-min fight, which averages out to 170 AP, but taking into account that your aiming DRW or Gargoyle at a proc I think it raises its value quite a bit. Taking into account that Bandit's has a slightly higher proc rate I imagine that the increased damage during a single DRW in a Mirror proc will make up for the Bandit's damage and the 20 AP average difference. There's also the fun factor as well; breaking 9.5-10k AP and then popping DRW is really really fun.

This I haven't seen, and its crushing my dreams.

Correct. I thought I had mentioned it, but apparently it was some post I scrapped or something. The reason my last couple posts use Obliterate over Death Strike is that OB hits significantly harder than DS again. The maximum possible damage on glyphed DS is 110%, and OB glyphed with diseases is 135%. DS is still better than it is on live, but it fits in more with the "use if you need a heal" intent than as a primary attack. That's why I've reverted to the current 51/0/20 disease-full rotation for 3.1 51/2/18.

On trinkets: Grim Toll is actually quite good, as long as the hit rating isn't wasted. It procs about as often as the greatness card, and the proc puts me at ~50% armor pen with my current gear. With diseaseless blood, it's a pretty significant buff. In 3.1 I imagine it'll be worth using if you need to fill in hit rating. Otherwise, the proc on Mirror is more beneficial overall. The proc rate isn't so terrible either, it's just not as good as the Greatness card. For this week's Naxx, I show >100 Greatness procs overall, with ~50 Mirror procs. Over the two minute Patchwerk fight, Greatness procced 3 times, Mirror 2. With ArmorPen in 3.1, Grim Toll might be better than Mirror... I'd have to do some more careful math though. I haven't gotten a FotFF so I can't comment on that one.

For reference, I did try Grim Toll for a full Naxx run on live, gear adjusted to make the hit rating useful. When the proc was up, my Obliterate crits were comparable to those with Hysteria up (12-13k at the top-end).

The thing is imo you shouldnt be waiting for that kind of thing before dropping drw anyway, i allways go on heroism or if its a long fight when ever i have the runic power/runes refreshed. I dont actually have Greatness got, Mirror/Bandits/Fotf but waiting for trinket proc and crusader proc.. well it doesnt happen to often for me at least.

Well the good thing about the DS glyph nerf is that i no longer have to care about having as much RP stored as possible right before i use DS because now i will drop DS glyph and take DRW or Deathcoil instead (probably Deathcoil).

Now they just have to give Blood/Unholy specs a way to use OB because DS can no longer compete.
On live the DMG breakdown shows that Deathcoil is around 12-18% of my total DMG while OB is 8-12% so if i have to decide between OB or DC glyph i will take the DC glyph.

The synergy with Morbidity and Sudden Doom sounds very potent and i don't know wheter a 20% stronger OB would outwight those benefits because without annihilation you would use OB 1-2 times every 20 seconds while your Deatcoilcount will be MUCH higher.

What do you think?

From ptr raids, we are going to lose some damage on DC due to SD no longer guaranteeing a crit (don’t have the DC glyph, so it might even out, but from glancing at wws we will lose 1-2% damage overall on DC). However DC damage still out performs OB in a diseased spec. I would go with HS and DC, the last major is between OB and DRW.

Glyph of the Ghoul is a must.