Hey guys, just wanted to add some more data to the equation here. I decided to try 50/0/21 for our 25 man raid tonight, after being used to 51/13/7 in our last 25 man(we've only had 2 since Wrath). I'm not fully used to it yet, but I'm absolutely loving the Gargoyle.
However, I'm not using Death Strike as a lot of people suggest, and I'm still rather happy with my damage, though a large portion of it is the Gargoyle. This is the rotation I use:
then basically repeat the last 3 lines over and over. I can usually catch my oblits right when my diseases are falling off, though at times I only get a 1 disease Oblit, and rare times a 0 disease one, but I don't find it's that big of a deal with the glyph.
Tonight was our first time on Patchwerk in the 25 man raid, so I don't have much to compare it with personally. I opened with the rotation listed above, except I summoned the Gargoyle the instant I got to 50 runic power. I was able to get 2 full Gargoyles through the fight, which I'm sure is what is skewing the results:
However, is there much evidence that using Death Strike instead of Oblit would have increased my DPS there? Obviously the rotation would change, but I'm rather happy with the damage I did even ignoring the Gargoyle. Here's my Armory since I don't think I've updated my character on the site:
I just got the ring and gloves in the run tonight, both after the Patchwerk kill. Was using epic leather gloves from one of the Zul'drak heriocs and the blue str/crit ring from heroic Nexus for the kill I linked.
Following the linked article about blood dps in unholy presence, I noticed the poster used DRW at the start of dps cycle.
I tested it and DRW uses PS+IT and gets the diseases applied, just like me. However, DRW doesn't have Annihiliaton talent and first OB I/we use consumes those diseases.
I also tested a bit just normal blood rotation 51/13/7 in blood and unholy presences. Resulting dps is about the same. Unholy presence lets me use all RP, resulting in a bigger percentage of damage from DC.
That WWS also has KT and a number of average Malygos attempts.
For prosperity, and the number crunchers, the rest of the run's WWSs. Note, my gear improved dramatically during the run - from fresh 80 new stuff, to all purple/blue by the end. Unfortunately my DPS didn't quite follow.
[Sigil of Haunted Dreams], I know this has been talked about a lot here but I don’t see a good answer about how much dps it can or can’t add to a dks(blood) dps. So I’m wondering if anyone has done any testing with it to see if it does have a 100% up time and if it is a dps boost, or is it better to just stay with [Sigil of the Dark Rider] and wait for [Sigil of Awareness] form Naxxramas.
Hey, Im the orginal poster of the forum that was linked earlier, to the above poster that noticed DRW eating diseases with obliterate, I didnt know that. Ill have to fool around and try to not use obliterate in the burst rotation with DRW up if its possible and see what I come up with.
Hey, Im the orginal poster of the forum that was linked earlier, to the above poster that noticed DRW eating diseases with obliterate, I didnt know that. Ill have to fool around and try to not use obliterate in the burst rotation with DRW up if its possible and see what I come up with.
The DRW's obliterate should only be eating diseases that the DRW itself applied. That is, if you have annihilation, summon your DRW, then PS, IT, BS, BS, Oblit, you should see two Blood Plagues, followed by two Frost Fevers, get the full damage modifier for both you and your DRW's heart strike disease bonuses and Oblit disease bonuses, and be left with only one set of diseases (yours) on the target.
EDIT: For clarity, I mean that the player and DRW's HS / Oblit benefit from their own two diseases, not all four each.
"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce
The DRW's obliterate should only be eating diseases that the DRW itself applied. That is, if you have annihilation, summon your DRW, then PS, IT, BS, BS, Oblit, you should see two Blood Plagues, followed by two Frost Fevers, get the full damage modifier for both you and your DRW's heart strike disease bonuses and Oblit disease bonuses, and be left with only one set of diseases (yours) on the target.
EDIT: For clarity, I mean that the player and DRW's HS / Oblit benefit from their own two diseases, not all four each.
Yeah thats what I ment, I should of been more specific.
Affects spell GCD, so death coil icy touch DnD and whatever else you'd be using. Doesn't affect melee GCD. Nothing does but Unholy Aura.
Wait, haste will effect our casting type of abilities? I was under the impression that GCD reduction was class based, as in you are a melee class you wont benefit from GCD, and as a caster you can.
a DRW'ed Army of the Dead brings something unique and amazing to the table that goes above and beyond whatever nano-boost to your WWS a gargoyle might or might not give you. Please consider this before speccing 50/0/21.
Been happily playing my DK and decided to try Blood spec out after leveling as Unholy. I wanted to have strong single-target DPS and have tried various specs, gear selection, and research. Although my guild doesn't do 25-mans (lack of people) and my gear isn't fully epic, the numbers I put out are comparable to the ones I see across most forums and against most bosses. I'd just like to share some observations I've had while playing Blood and would like to get feedback, comments, and discussion rolling. Much of this may be redundant, but I figured it would be good to lay out everything I've seen so far (by the way, some of this may have already been posted before and I'm not going in any particular order, just what comes to mind as I go):
Current Statistics (unbuffed w/o Horn of Winter):
Weapon: Sword of Justice
Damage: 1532 - 1828
Attack Power: 3042
Crit Chance: 27.27%
Hit Rating: 304
Expertise: 20 (working on it)
Armor Pen: 35
Armor: 14205
Major Glyphs: Obliterate, Plague Strike, Icy Touch
Minor Glyphs: Horn of Winter, Pestilence, Ghoul
Other Noteworthy Points: 2-piece Scourgebone (5% increased crit chance on OB), Trinket 1 activates +670 AP, Trinket 2 has chance to proc 258 crit rating.
Averaged DPS on 10-man Naxx clear: 2100-2800 DPS
Averaged DPS on 10-man bosses (Naxx included): 3200-3700 DPS
Averaged DPS on heroics: 1900-2300 DPS
Averaged DPS on heroic bosses: 3700-4500 DPS
Recount 'by the skill' Damage Rankings: Melee
Heart Strike
Obliterate
Death Coil
I chose to go with the 51/13/7 because I want to have Obliterate in my rotation into quad Heart Strike (our hardest rune to damage ratio attack). I figured having one of the hardest hitting strikes in the game would benefit my DPS especially on boss fights using the full rotation. Also, I opted for Toughness instead of Glacier Rot and Improved Icy Touch, and am using Glyph of Plague Strike. I like how you can IT from a distance before closing in with Plague Strike, but otherwise the damage difference should be marginal since the precursor 10 points to Annihilation are pretty much filler.
The Spec - Blood Aura and Mark of Blood in Retrospect
One word: trivial. I asked several members of my raid just how useful they thought Blood Aura was. The answer was that they'd rather have me increase my DPS. Mark of Blood is useful...but more so in 5-mans. I've yet to be in a situation (other than soloing elites) where Mark of Blood saved me or the raid. If you're in that kind of situation, chances are somebody did something wrong already.
I decided to take those 3 points and stick them into Blood Worms. I was originally Blood from 55 to 65 while levelling, and never found them proccing all that often. When a fellow Death Knight said that his meters were parsing Blood Worms at a 50 DPS increase, I was immediately intrigued. Blood Worms now adds an average of 60 to 80 pts to my overall DPS. That's pretty amazing, considering the change in only 3 talent points that would've otherwise been rendered useless.
Observations of the Rotation
- First off, the standard rotation is generally: IT > PS > HS > HS > OB -DC- >> OB > HS > HS > HS > HS > -DC-
-The rotation for multi-mobs is generally: IT > PS > HS > Pestilence > OB -DC- >> use OB, HS, Blood Boil, and Pestilence depending on situation and number of mobs. You should never have to cast IT or PS again because Pestilence will automatically refresh those diseases on new targets as it is cast.
-The rotation for boss mobs varies, but generally when you want to fully flex your DPS potential, you would want to go with this: IT > PS > HS > HS > OB > Blood Tap > HS > Trinkets > Hysteria > Dancing Rune Weapon > Empower Rune Weapon > begin rotation.At the end of the first cycle you will generally have ~90 RP, meaning a refreshed Blood Rune via Blood Tap will let you HS again and reach 100 RP, allowing for a full DRW. Remember a few key things: DRW copies virtually everything you do, which is why I want to Empower Rune Weapon so I can get both Blood Plague and Frost Fever on there.
-On the 4th HS of the second cycle, Frost Fever has will usually have already fallen off. This also depends on whether or not you had too many Sudden Doom procs and needed to push out Death Coils. I'm not sure if this is a problem that needs to be addressed though, cause HS still hits decently hard even with one disease. As for optimizing DPS, I think that this rotation is pretty close to it and maximizes the damage benefits from HS and OB with the full duration of the two diseases.
Eternal Debate: Unholy vs Blood Presence
I've tried switching to either, and I can't give you a clear answer. I believe that on trash, Unholy is better just because oftentimes mobs will die too quickly before you can even cast Pestilence with both diseases up. Unholy also allows you to dump Death Coils like no other, meaning you will never miss out on your rotations. The issue with the 4th HS is also resolved, as you will always finish your rotation on time before the diseases fall off. Blood, however, just straight up does more damage and Recount shows that they're pretty much both on equal levels. Too early to tell maybe - gear might become the deciding factor.
What Kind of Gear are We Aiming for?
I've pretty much decided this order: Hit Cap
Expertise Cap
Attack Power (preferably Strength)
Crit Rating (not Agility)
Haste and Armor Pen right now just provide too little to benefit the DK class. Critical strike chance is actually quite important, since you benefit so much from both spell criticals and the Might of Mograine talent and the metagem.
Quick question to you guys: Mirror of Truth - is it worth it?
That's all I can think of for now. I'm sure I had more, but I'll keep posting and checking back in this thread. Once again sorry if any of this is redundant, I just want to put everything out on the table for us to pick apart and examine.
Last edited by amaii : 12/02/08 at 4:50 AM.
Reason: more info
sorry for the late post, been busy with guild politics.
PS IT HS HS DC (wait around 2 seconds) OB
PS IT HS HS HS HS HS HS (dump RP and use DC when Sudden doom procs between, you are also able to get about 1 DC in between the fourth and fifth HS) OB
Rinse.
Repeat.
Obviously without annihilation your only real use for OB is when your diseases are about to fall of or when you are going to force your next rotation (making sure to lose VERY little disease up time)
Pulled off around 3% higher damage than the next person on 10 man Patchwerk last night, Pretty easily. ill try to get a parse of our next one up soonish. Haven't found a fight yet where I have not been number 1 on damage, outside of OS 25 man, And thats only because of moving away from Sarth when the magma is inc.
All in all, I'm loving the spec, It's VERY versatile and has some GREAT AoE as well as GREAT single target dps...
Deathgraf puts it under everything, though i seem to be pulling better damage than i see linked in parses here of every spec, Quite odd.
I just had a quick question if you wouldn't mind. I've been reviewing my spec and was similarly thinking of taking toughness in place of other talents in Frost. I was wondering if this increases the AP you receive from Bladed Armor. If that's the case it may be a viable alternative to Black Ice (for me comes out to another 51 AP, another 3.6 dps, plus the effect it has on anything we cast).
The other question I had. I noticed when I looked at your spec that you took 5 points in Black Ice. I'm curious about your decision to take this over Improved Icy Touch. Both increase frost damage by 30%, Imp Icy Touch only does it to IT though. The big difference is the additional reduction of attack speed and the fact you can dump 2 points into either Glacier Rot or Icy Reach. Maybe I'm not entirely lucid right now =p but I can't think of any other form of frost damage Blood spec deals. Am I missing something?
Last edited by Niil : 12/02/08 at 8:10 AM.
Reason: more info
Ive noticed alot of people talking about the rotation for the 51/13/7 spec starting with IT instead of PS.
With talent points in glacial rot shouldnt the rotation begin with PS so the IT takes benefit from the dmg increase? I was also under the impression that the optimal rotation always began with PS instead of IT?
The thing is normaly a fight starts with you running in. In which case you start off with a IT freeing your gcd by the time you get in melee range
So what your telling me is the reason people have PS and IT swapped is simply wether or not they are referring to running in or not, and once in the PS>IT rotation begins?
Has anyone done any testing with these builds in the default DK-zone ending gear? And at different levels, say 58/60, 70, 80? I am dialup-bound and can do heroics and a few 10mans, but doubt I'll see much if any of the "big" raiding stuff. I know the numbers would be low, but they could be a baseline set of info to build upon since there is still so much to test for DKs. And if I just missed that info, well, feel free to flag for being an idiot.
I ask because I'm still leveling my DK (The World of Warcraft Armory) and trying to decide on a leveling build (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is what I'm fiddling with while the realms are down), while reading EJ to see how to get the most of her while not sitting here lamenting my connection.
I can't tell if I am overpowered, or just meh. Example, the elite 63 giants in hellfire. I can kill one with my spec seen on the armory, I might even be able to do two in quick succession, but I can't stand to two at once. From reading and listening to guildmates it seems I should be able to do better. Usually I do DG or IT, PS, HS HS DC BS/OB, and repeat until dead for most mobs. On the giants I used my Mark of Blood/DG macro and summoned my ghoul (minion, not pet) before using the macro, then I just used Vampiric Blood/Rune Tap and DS as necessary. In blood presence all the time.
So far I'm happy with the character but I think I could be doing better/more.
Regarding the Blood Presence vs Unholy Presence debate, a lot of people seem to be ignoring the fact that UP also increases your run speed by 15%. That should push it over in any fight but Patchwerk, unless you also have an Unholy DK with Unholy Aura in the raid who is within 45 yards of you at all times.
12/01/08, 1:55 AM
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