The first post in this thread links two tested cases of [Glyph of Blood Strike] and snares working on raid bosses, even if the mob is immune to movement impair.
Been a long time since I actually looked at the first page - Ill check that out. Thanks.
That's a pretty big assumption. As of the latest PTR build DS has always been less than 10% (around 6-8% to be exact) of my overall damage with DC being upwards of 16-18% of my overall damage. This is on the heroic dummy with no glyphs or external buffs/debuffs using 4 min tests. I would wager the DC glyph would be a greater DPS increase than the DS glyph.
Hmm. My numbers were definitely off but i think yours are as well. I'm starting to think that the glyph of DS and DC may end up being almost dead even.
First we need to figure out the best rotation.
PS IT HS HS DS DC DC
DS HS HS HS HS DC
That's the rotation I've been considering. The 2nd DC on line 1 will have to skipped the first run through as well as every 20 rotations due to this rotation only generating 118 RP.
If we take this we have 3.85(2 + 19/20 + (6 * 0.15)) DC and 2 DS in 20 seconds.
DC will have 5% crit from t8
DS will have 6% crit and a 2.45 crit modifier
With the average damages of DC and DS unglyphed we could start to figure out whether one will win out.
If you have a different rotation that you think is better that could change things as well.
Edit: After thinking about it i forgot about with such a short CD on DRW It's RP consumption will cut significantly into DC.
If you opt to use it at the very start of your rotation only it will be 5 rotations or 100 seconds between DRW. At this value you get 1 rotation of 1 DC(cut 2 to be capped for DRW) 1 rotation of 2 DC(resetting of RP) and 3 rotations of 3. this is (2 + 2/5 + (6 * 0.15)) or 3.3 DC
If you opt to use DRW when it comes up this is 4.5 rotations or 90 seconds. So if you pop D&D and HoW for RP it will allow you to cap after 1 rotation. So this is 1 rotation of 0 DC then 1 rotation of 2 then 2 of 3 then 1 of 2(saving for DRW again) then 1 of 1(DRW was popped halfway through) then 1 of 2 then 2 of 3 then repeat
This will have 21 DCs in 9 rotations or about (2.33 + (6 * 0.15)) 3.23 DC.
That rotation also works out best for me, but when do you want to use your DRW?
Do i use my at the beginning of a rotation so that my dancing rune warpon applies the diseases and then gets the benefit for heart strike and so on? Ob should i pop hysteria and DRW after the diseases to maximize the physical damage (assuming that your DRW doesnt need its own disease bonuses for eg heart strike)?
And i feared that that they changed glyph of blood strike to not affext heart strike now because they implemented a glyph of heart strike.
From my understanding isn't starting out with DS better than starting out with IT-PS etc? For instance using DS-IT-PS-HS-HS-DC-HS-HS-DC-HS-DS (i believe its something like this). Then in the 2nd half of the rotation going IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS-DS-HS-HS-DS.I have not tested it since the new build but i was doing about 3.2k+ dps on boss dummy with this rotation.
Ghul dying is still the normal case. Yesterday on mimiron, my pet didnt surive 10 seconds in any phase, since there is a lot of aoe dmg. Its pretty much impossible to keep him alive in p2 and p1 would need a lot of attention, though i believe it could be possible.
With good control you can keep the pet up during phase 1 of Mimiron(since pets do not activate mines) but generally not worth the hassle…The damage on Mimiron phase 2 is too rampant unless you get extremely lucky, I usually end up sacking it for a heal, a resummon in phase 3 is not bad since its free damage on the boss.
Originally Posted by Bonecaller
And i feared that that they changed glyph of blood strike to not affext heart strike now because they implemented a glyph of heart strike.
From my understanding isn't starting out with DS better than starting out with IT-PS etc? For instance using DS-IT-PS-HS-HS-DC-HS-HS-DC-HS-DS (i believe its something like this). Then in the 2nd half of the rotation going IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS-DS-HS-HS-DS.I have not tested it since the new build but i was doing about 3.2k+ dps on boss dummy with this rotation.
I was doing about 3,5k in 8 minutes on ptr, with glyphs, but not so optimal equip. Used all Cooldowns the best way possible. I used DRW nearly on cooldown (as far as i was able to have 100 rp up). On live i once had problem to do more than 3100. Si it looks like a pretty nice buff. Pretty sure stronger than frost (as i am for the moment) and probably on par or stronger as unholy.
Including DS which is simply a death rune generator on any set bonus isn't the way to go.
We are seeing love on T8 with the 4pc bonus affecting our primary damage strike, which is Heart Strike.
This isn't the point, the fact that its "Only a death rune generator" doesn't mean we should have to wait for T8 pieces in order to gain any benefit from set bonuses. The fact remains t7 gives -nothing- to Blood dps in 3.1, and we're not all gonna suddenly get 2 or even 4 parts of t8 on day 1 of 3.1.
So, you were getting 20% haste from the frost dk for your testing. If an unholy DK were on the dummy then your (and the frost dk's) damage would have both been inflated (the frost DKs more than yours). You need to keep these things in mind.
So, you were getting 20% haste from the frost dk for your testing. If an unholy DK were on the dummy then your (and the frost dk's) damage would have both been inflated (the frost DKs more than yours). You need to keep these things in mind.
Granted.
As i said 3,5k isn't hard to achieve on your own.
And the 3.9k was indeed benefiting from an unholy & frost DK, Desecration snared target, Ebon and Haste.
3.5K is easily attainable, even without using cooldowns.
3.7-3.9k dps deseases kind fell off the last bit making my dps tick downwards.
The guy above me is 2H frost, benefitting from merciless combat.
I dont know what u wanne tell me. I did 3500 DPS with CDs but no support at all except my own. No Ebon Plague and surely no icy talons and what so ever. I also have to say that i was on a dummy with 1 hp, so necrosis didnt procc.
The absolute number says nothing except we have the same conditions, buffs and so on. I did the same testing a month ago with 51/13/7 and i wasnt able to get above 3100, so i see from my testing a good buff for the blood specc.
edit:
Originally Posted by Xaer
granted, again i said 3,5k isn't hard to achieve on your own.
3.9 was indeed benefiting for a snared target and the haste.
without cooldowns and selfbuffed, you are able to do 3500 without problems? My equip isnt yet best in slot, but its pretty close to it, so i kind of doubt it.
It a lot depends on the "length" of the testing of course. It's never bad to see new numbers so long as you know the conditions from which they were found. So, let's consider what affects being teamed with a frost DK would have on a blood DK. First of all, depending on their spec, they'll snare the target (would also work if teamed with an unholy dk), which means 20% bonus to HS which is ~30-35% of our damage, so that's a 6-7% overall dps increase right there. Next, if they give 20% haste, then our melee+necrosis+BcB damage is ~30-35% of our dps as well, so that would be another 6-7% overall dps increase. If EP is on the target, then Necrosis (5-6%) and DC (15-18%) would get a benefit of 30%, which would be 1.5% and 4.5% respectively for a 6% overall dps bonus. So, if you're doing 3100 self buffed and no help, then afterwards you should be doing about 3720 with just those 3 buffs (IIT, Snared, EP).
These are all ballpark numbers assuming dmg% based on screenshots shown in the last few days that i can vaguely remember. I'm just arguing that it's easy for 1,2 or 3 buffs to really scale your damage up without you knowing or thinking about it. Because Blood spec self buffed isn't going to be very hot because you don't have 20% BS glyph activated, which makes it hard to compare certain glyphs to each other because some are always working (OB and SS for example).
I am still not convinced that Glyph of Disease might not be usefull as a blood DK.
You lose 1 blood rune in order to refresh both diseases but you gain 2 additional death runes from the additional DS instead of PS + IT leaving you with a total HS bonus of + 1 or did i miss something?
The question now is how much dmg a PS + IT is compared to a DS if both are comparable than i see no reason why the Glyph of Disease would be "bad" for blood dks.
My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.
I dont know what u wanne tell me. I did 3500 DPS with CDs but no support at all except my own. No Ebon Plague and surely no icy talons and what so ever. I also have to say that i was on a dummy with 1 hp, so necrosis didnt procc.
The absolute number says nothing except we have the same conditions, buffs and so on. I did the same testing a month ago with 51/13/7 and i wasnt able to get above 3100, so i see from my testing a good buff for the blood specc.
edit:
without cooldowns and selfbuffed, you are able to do 3500 without problems? My equip isnt yet best in slot, but its pretty close to it, so i kind of doubt it.
This was with necrosis but without snaring, i consider my gear "finished" however im too lazy to fix the Expertise gap from the 3.1 patch atm giving me some dodges.
Testing period was around 7-8 minutes.
BS/DS/DC glyphed, 51/2/18 [PS IT HS HS DS DC HS HS HS HS DS DC, deseases falling of on the last DS, not giving me healing but does not affect damage.
As for the gear, prettymuch identical to Live.
Swapping out for legplates of Double strikes on PTR for more ARP, since the 4 piece bonus is now useless for Deathstrike blood. http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...Dentarg&n=Xaer
Tharvos, we aren't just comparing IT+PS to DS, it's IT+PS+HS vs DS+Pest(which does no damage). If we follow up to what the runes would have been the cycle afterwards then you are comparing IT+PS+HS + DS+HS vs DS+Pest + HS+HS+HS, so after canceling out some attacks on both sides you're left with IT+PS vs Pest(which deals no damage)+HS. It's possible given this extended scenario that Pest does benefit, because I'm not sure if PS+IT does as much as HS, although PS benefits from all of the physical damage buffs, so it's like comparing 50%WPN+0.1AP vs 72%WPN. It still looks like PS+IT will average more damage and won't require wasting a major glyph on disease which would take away either BS/DS/DRW/Ghoul/DC, all of which provide a moderate amount of dps.
Xaer, since I don't even see BcB in the 1-2% range, would 2 pts of epidemic be more of a dps increase than BcB or possibly Morbidity (which is showing to be .5% dps per rank or less).
Posible, i've been trying to figure out its usefullness and its lacking alot in my opinion, 5% DC dmg would benefit me more and with 1 point in epidemic it would mean i get the heal of the last DS.
BS/DS/DC glyphed, 51/2/18 [PS IT HS HS DS DC HS HS HS HS DS DC, deseases falling of on the last DS, not giving me healing but does not affect damage.
The large gap caused by rune cooldowns after the first half of the rotation is irritating. Can you try the same rotation just with the second DS directly after the first dump? Since everything else remains unchanged that should be enough for a conclusion.
Tharvos, we aren't just comparing IT+PS to DS, it's IT+PS+HS vs DS+Pest(which does no damage). If we follow up to what the runes would have been the cycle afterwards then you are comparing IT+PS+HS + DS+HS vs DS+Pest + HS+HS+HS, so after canceling out some attacks on both sides you're left with IT+PS vs Pest(which deals no damage)+HS. It's possible given this extended scenario that Pest does benefit, because I'm not sure if PS+IT does as much as HS, although PS benefits from all of the physical damage buffs, so it's like comparing 50%WPN+0.1AP vs 72%WPN. It still looks like PS+IT will average more damage and won't require wasting a major glyph on disease which would take away either BS/DS/DRW/Ghoul/DC, all of which provide a moderate amount of dps.
Also, remember that in order for Glyph of Disease to function the diseases can not drop. This requires 2/2 Epidemic for your standard 18-20 second rotation. That second point in Epidemic is worth near-zero DPS for other rotations, and so they gain DPS by placing it elsewhere.
Thus, in order for Glyph of Disease to be a better option we have to weigh the damage of PS+IT + a different glyph + 1 extra talent point vs HS.
Assuming 5.5k AP and an iLvl 200 weapon an average Normalized swing will do ~1930 damage unmitigated. Plugging those numbers in PS + IT will do ~2k damage (50%+189 + .1*AP+239), while a single Heart Strike will do (72%*1.45) ~2.2k damage (with Glyph). You'll gain roughly 250-350 damage over 20 seconds, ~17 DPS in all.
However, the Blood Strike Glyph assumed in this scenario is already adding 120 DPS, the DS Glyph will add ~50 DPS and both the DRW and Ghoul glyph will easily add more than 17 DPS. I'd wager that even the Plague Strike Glyph would add more damage, so long as it affects both direct and disease damage.
In summary, the DPS lost through glyph and talent swapping clearly overcomes the DPS gained through replacing PS+IT with Pest+HS.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
Xaer, since I don't even see BcB in the 1-2% range, would 2 pts of epidemic be more of a dps increase than BcB or possibly Morbidity (which is showing to be .5% dps per rank or less).
Dropping BCB for 1 point in epidemic and 3/3 morbidity is a dps increase for me, not by much though.
The single point in epidemic makes it easier for me to do rotations atleast.
Last edited by Xaer : 03/16/09 at 7:45 PM.
Reason: quote adding
Unless they change the [Sigil of Awareness] to also include something Blood is going to actually use in a 3.1 rotation then this will become worthless to any Blood spec.
Any ideas on which would be better? I would suspect Haunted Dreams but with the Sudden Doom change you are going to be firing off a lot of automatic Death Coils...
From my understanding isn't starting out with DS better than starting out with IT-PS etc? For instance using DS-IT-PS-HS-HS-DC-HS-HS-DC-HS-DS (i believe its something like this). Then in the 2nd half of the rotation going IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS-DS-HS-HS-DS.I have not tested it since the new build but i was doing about 3.2k+ dps on boss dummy with this rotation.
You get the exact same abilities off just using the standard IT-PS-DS-HS-HS then DS-HS-HS-HS-HS. 1 IT, 1 PS, 2 DS, 6 HS.
Clearly it is better to do two 5 GCD rotations compared to a 4 GCD followed by a 6 GCD rotation, not to mention that your death runes do not match up with your abilities in your rotation, if you lead with IT-PS then your next rotation has to start with DS.(and conversly if it is in the middle DS needs to be the middle). By making the DC officially part of your rotation you are restricting yourself for when you need to deviate from the rotation.
It's been proven time and again that a "fixed" rotation is a good way to do mediocre DPS. What you need to learn is a priority system. Thinking (properly) on the fly will do more to increase your performance than ANY amount of build/rotation tweaking.
My personal priority system that I go through in my head during encounters:
Priority #1: Keep diseases up
Priority #2: Don't overcap RP (i.e. dump some if you're about to go over 100 BEFORE you hit that next big ability)
Priority #3: Best damage attack you have
Priority #4: Secondary damage attack to refresh Death Runes
Priority #5: RP dump
And of course with all that you need to be thinking about when you're going to be poping your big cooldowns so that you can time things like full RP stack, BL, procs, etc. Very few fights will allow you to stick with a fixed number of attacks in a rotation. A system like this works for ANY spec you might change to, just adjust what your using as our main attack and your seconday attack/death rune refresher.
The difference between a rotation and a priority system is actually really really small. If you use diseases (which after the patch you should) the only difference between priority and rotation is when you use runic power abilities, and overall you'll end up using roughly the same amount.
Also, I think for a priority build #2 should be your strikes if your diseases are about to expire. Going a few RP over the maximum is not as a huge loss as a your strikes missing the disease modifiers. Besides, if you're using priority system you should rarely have high runic power.
03/16/09, 2:08 AM
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