edit : Death Strike Crit % too high ?

After hours of testing the Critical Strike Percentage is too high compared to Autoattacks.
between 14 and 16 % difference

edit :

i unlearned subversion, Heartstrike % went down, but DS stayed at high crit percentage (200 x DS) ... just random factor ?

i am rather confused , i can't spot any talent or abilty (german tooltip) that increases DS crit chance other than Improved Death Striek (6 %)

i ran some hours of castsequence makro spam, and DS crit chance allways topped HS crit chance.

Edit:
Translation from German to English (screenshots):

Herzstoß = Heartstrike
Nahkampf = Melee / Autoattacks
Todesstoß = Deathstrike
Nekrose = Necrosis
Todesmantel = Deathcoil
Auslöschen = Obliterate
Blutseuche = Bloodplague
Frostfieber = Frostfever
Seuchenstoß = Plaguestrike
Eisige Berührung = Icy Touch

/end of edit



I finally was able to do some PTR tests (problems with critical errors and massive lags).

I can confirm that the critrate seems to be buggy but not the way Krsh reported it.

Take a look at this image:



As you can see, i did ~8 min of testing and used 142 Heartstrikes. The HS critrate is rather low with 25%. Take a look at my character screen, i have around 34% crit with Horn of Winter.
Add the 9% HS crit from Subversion and i shoul get a much higher critrate than just 25%.
Maybe it was just bad luck because 142 cast isn't that much, but when i compare the HS critrate with the DS critrate which is at 36% it seems obvious that something seem to be broken.
The 36% DS critrate sounds "okay" because of 34% basecrit + 6% from improved deathstrike but is also lower than expected.


Additional notes:

DRW seems to copy your Epidemic talent. I have 1 point in Epidemic on the PTR and the DRW diseases last 18 seconds just like my own so it should be save to assume that with 2/2 Epidemic the DRW diseases would last 21 sec as well.
The DRW Deathstrike dmg ist VERY low compared to your own so i doubt that DRW clones the improved DS talent and/or glyph.
Same with DC.

Interesting is that the Meleedmg (autoattack) of my DRW is HIGHER than the Meleedmg from my Ghoul (not factoring in Claw and Gnaw)!

6% DRW Autoattack vs 5% Ghoul Autoattack from my total DMG dealed over 8 minutes.

I use the BS, DC, DRW glyph and my spec is 51 2 18 so this could change when you don't have RPM and/or DRW Glyph but Ghoul glyph instead.




So all in all the dmg seems very potent to me, after 8 minutes of testing at the Bossdummy my DPS was around 3400.
This is 600 more than i am able to dish out on Live with the same gear. Sure, ~300 dps from those 600 come from the perma Ghoul, but it is still pretty amazing.

My avg (noncrit) DS dmg (without DS glyph) is around 600 DMG lower than the average (noncrit) OB dmg, but when you factor in the fact that you lose 1-2 ticks of both diseases when using OB over DS it becomes pretty clear that DS is definitly the better choice now.
Avg DS crits are much higher than avg OB crits but i don't have numbers (forgot to write them down sorry).



Ok now some Ulduar stuff:

I was able to get into a random Ulduar 10men raid in order to have some fun with Mimiron. The group was far from perfect in terms of "melee friendly buffs" and the server was laggy as hell as well.
But i was very impressed by the numbers i was able to dish out.

We did around 8-9 trys before they deactivated the boss because of bugs (take a look at worldofraids for more infos about that).
But only the last 3 trys are notable because in those trys we were able to reach phase 3.

My personal avg DPS was around 4100. Highest result was a 5345 DPS try that ended after p2.
I used the same spec and glyphs as i used during the dummy tests but i am not sure that the BS glyph was activ during the bossfight because the only one with a possible snare was the DPS feral druid but he did't have infected wounds as far as i know.
So i guess that the BS glyph was NOT active.

And the ghoul NEVER stayed alive longer than 10-20 seconds which is sad but expected...

Here is a screenshot of our last try before they deactivated the encounter (and yes we were only 9 men):




Again:
I am very impressed by the numbers because for me it is a huge DPS gain so far and don't forget that during the phases there are "long breaks" where you are still in combat but have nothing to attack which should lower the overall fight DPS quite a bit!

Another very usefull thing to point out is that i need nearly ZERO external heal during p1-p3 (don't have much experience with p4 so i can't tell how it works there) because of pertty sick DS selfheal and AMS / IBF rotations.

The healers were very pleased because of that so they had 1 person less to keep an eye on.



I hope this was interesting to read and helps to further discuss the new 3.1 Blood DKs which seem to be very potent.



Edit:

Ok i did some extended testing of the critrate against the bossdummy, here are the results:



So i was wrong about the HS critrate beeing broken.

HS: 36,5% crit (241 casts)
Melee: 29,2% crit (250 casts)
DS: 44,5% crit (110 casts)
DC: 17,5% crit (40 casts, suddon doom procs only)


So it looks indeed like DS crit is higher than expected. HS gains 9% crit from Subversion and DS gains 6% from improved DS.
I have no clue why its critrate is so high... Maybe it recieves benefits from both, Subversion and imp DS talents? It would make sense because 36% +9 % = 45% which is nearly the DS critrate...

Another thing that comes to my mind:
Maybe Vicious Strikes is still affection DS and only the tooltip says it does not.


But hey i like it that way hehe.

Hello,

I've been reading these forums since Wrath came out. I've just spent the last couple of days reading over the majority of the posts in this thread since around the 40's. I have been dual wielding for quite some time now using 0/32/39 and I am sad to see it go (boy that spec ripped). It looks like I will be going back to blood (I leveled blood and became 51/13/7 for a small while at 80 until I switched to dual wield) as of 3.1. I just have a few questions.

1) With a 2-hander, how much more important is Necrosis over BCB? If the difference is small (I have been trying to juggle my points in UH), then what do you guys think of a build like this? The reason being is from what I understand, 1 point in Epidemic is mandatory for proper disease uptime. No more than 2 points is needed in BCB and I feel the DC damage of Morbidity is a no-brainer. If Necrosis is more important than I think it is, then I would consider taking one point out of BCB and making it 4/5 Necrosis (or heck, is Necrosis > BCB by a long-shot, then no points in BCB at all).

2) My 2-hander is somewhat weak. I have never even seen a Death's Bite or Betrayer drop so I am stuck with a Titansteel Destroyer. Since this is the case, just how much can I expect to see my DPS gimped compared to others?

3)Lastly, I haven't really noticed any information even close to conclusive about ArP. Is it indeed a more valuable stat that we need to start getting more of? Or is it still a toss-up (as in, not entirely necessary, but good to have if you're already hit capped and somewhat high on expertise). I guess my real question here is what's the new (if there is one) priority for ArP vs. haste vs. expertise?

(okay I know #3 was nowhere close to chronological, but it's 3:30am)

EDIT: Oh and I haven't been able to hit the test realm. It's installed on my computer back at school and I am home right now with a computer that I don't feel can handle anymore installations of anything.

And one more thing. I haven't been able to read the Unholy 2H thread too much, but could someone give me a general idea of how Unholy fares compared to blood now?

Is it perhaps like Heart Strike doesnt get the Subversion benefit or something like that? Or doesnt benefit from agi (though it is supposed to be a melee strike)?

I dont understand it, but i tested it and i got about the same results on a 11min fight:
HS: 180 Attacks, 110 Hit, 70 Crit, 38,9% Krits
DS: 60/32/28. 46,7% Crit
Deathcoil: 97/68/25, 25,8%

With horn i am at 33,75% critrate, so HS should be nearly 43%, Deathstrike 40%. I am fully expertise and meleehit capped.

Something is really wrong about the critrates.

I know that on one try, crit luck and so on really do matter. Buf 11min is a long period and i am not the only on who had a significant difference between ds critrate and hs critrate.

Did you all factor in the crit penalty versus bosses?

That would explain the low HS crit, but DS would still be over the top. Did anyone try a sample without Subversion or Vicious Strikes? Perhaps DS wasn't coded out of VS or benefits from Subversion, though it shouldn't.

So without Subversion DS and HS would be at the same crit rate. Though they would both be 5% lower than auto attack crit rate, but could it be that boss penalty only affects specials and not auto attack? Perhaps someone who knows more about that could help out there. Otherwise you could just run a test on a level 80 dummy and see how that works out.

Everything else points to some issues with Vicious Strikes or possibly Improved Death Strike and how they affect DS.

Ghostcrawler recently said that Blood(Death Strike, self heal) and Unholy(Scourge Strike, minions, ...). With the new changes in 3.1 it's now possible for deep Blood Death Knights to take the permanent ghoul. I'm wondering if the Ghoul is actually going to be a benefit to us, since the talent which reduces AoE by 80% is unavailable for Blood Death Knight?

As has been mentioned in this thread, Master of Ghouls is the best single point talent available. That said it has been my experience that in Ulduar the ghoul has a life span of 20-30 sec. Though to be fair this lifetime can be increased with a little more pet micromanagement. So as your familiarity with the boss encounters goes up , your ability to keep your ghoul alive should likewise increase.

30 seconds of 300 dps is only 9000 damage over the course of an entire fight. let's say it's a 6 minute fight. that's 25 dps. Not that amazing.

if you resummon the ghoul for another time and get another 30 seconds.... you'll get 50 dps... better, but amazing? no..

Thing is, ghouls DO get hit by a lot of AOE heals. Through some of the ulduar fights, while speced 51/0/20 with Ghoul pet, my pet has lived through an entire Hodir fight, and most of Ignus, without too much issue.

Sadly with the recent IT nerf you won't be getting sufficient DPS from a Frost subspec.

You're losing:
-Permanent goul
-BCB
-Necrosis
-3% Hit rating (Since SDeath isn't a crit anymore it can miss)

Only to gain:

-20% haste (wasted if you have a Frost Dk or a Sham in your raid) or KM (you'll only use KM procs on IT and using IT is a dps loss)
-15% damage on IT that you shouldn't be using anyways.
-10% Frost & Shadow damage (IT/DC alone benefit from it).

I see a clear loss.

I've been running a

IT>PS>DS>HS>HS
DS>HS>HS>HS>P
DS>HS>HS>HS>HS
DS>HS>HS>HS>P

rotation with a 51/2/18 spec (Glyph of Disease/BS/DC) - Using the glyph of DS considering DRW doesn't take your improved DS or DS glyph into account is a waste. The cap is also 24(25)26 RP but some people might be reluctant to RP dump if they use the glyph.
DRW glyph isn't great either but no need to detail I believe.

So far the best results I've had are using this rotation.

I see you are getting an extra HS in that rotation but i was wondering if the trade off for an HS is > IT and PS to refresh diseases.

I was thinking of the same rotation, how much of a difference in numbers does it make?

Also the numbers must be very close for the glyph of DRW and DC. If you're increasing DRW lifespan by lets say close to 50% you're also increasing its dps by a similar amount. Stuff to think about. Sadly i dont have a character on the PTR or i would spend endless amount of time on there running numbers ><

Assuming 5k ap and a Betrayer:

((((758)+((5000/14)*3.3))+368)*0.5) = 1152.28

((1152.28*1.3)*1.2)*1.2 = 2157.078

With Critical Strike MoM modifier assuming 35% Critical strike chance (hit/expertise capped) raid buffed (low):

(1-0.35)+(2.45*0.35) = 1.5075

2157.078*1.5075 = 3251.79

With a 15% DC proc we could also add it into the damage (taking 15% of DC damage)

((443)+(5000*0.15)) = 1193

(1193*1.15)*1.15 = 1577.74

((1-0.26)+(2*0.26)) = 1.26

1577.74*1.26 = 1987.75

1987.75*0.15 = 298.16

So 3251.79+298.16 = 3549.95 total damage for that extra HS.

Considering the IT nerf (and since 51/2/18 doesn't add any Frost damage)... I doubt I'll have do the maths for IT+ PS.

After hearing about the ArP buff i've started collecting gear with said stat on it. I have the Legplates of Double Strikes so far.
My question is: Has anyone done any extensive testing on ArP? I've read the last 30 pages (and Ctrl+F searched the ones before it) for info on this improved stat but no one has come up with anything that clearly states if we should be collecting as much ArP as possible or just replacing any Haste with ArP only?

Ok so here it goes for IT + PS vs HS.

IT: (236)+(5000*0.1) = 736

736*1.26 = 927.36

PS: (((758)+((5000/14)*3.3))+189)*0.5 = 1062.78

1062.78*1.26 = 1339.11



IT + PS = 927.36 + 1339.11 = 2266.47

So we have 2266.47 vs 3549.95. We have a clear and obvious winner don't we?
ArP has slighty more value than haste. Haste only affects auto-attacks/necrosis/BCB.

ArP will also affect auto-attacks/necrosis/BCB (BCB and Necrosis are both physical even if Necrosis double-dips from spells buffs/debuffs and physical buffs/debuffs since it deals shadow damage).

But ArP will also affect your strikes (DS/HS/PS).

The DRW glyph increases it's duration by 10 seconds. It lasts 28 seconds without the glyph at the most.

A 10 second increase would be a 35.7% increase in DRWs lifetime - not it's damage - during those 10 extra seconds you won't necessarily have all the runes you want when you need them.

If we consider each HS is a DC that deals 15% damage that's a (with 5000 ap):

((443)+(5000*0.15))*1.15 = 1371.95

1371.95 * 0.15 = 205.79

205.79 * 0.15 = 30.8685

30.8685 * 1.26 = 38.8943 damage increase per HS.

It's also a flat 205.79 * 1.26 = 259.2954 damage per deathcoil and you have at least 1 per rotation solely on runic power.

Doesn't seem alot but it adds up fast per complete rotation (1st & 2nd):

(38.8943*7)+ (259.2954*2) = 790.8509 damage.

Thats 790.8509 damage roughly every 20 seconds. On a 2 minute fight it would be 4745.1054 damage.

Now what I'm wondering is if in 10 seconds that DRW will deal 4745.1054 damage since it deals 50% of your damage and it won't take into account glyphs (your DRW won't deal 50% of the damage of your glyphed DS or HS ... you can try it out).

And I'm actually quite sure the DRW will deal more than 4745.1054 damage in those 10 seconds after the DC math total damage.

But then if we take into account the DC Sigil (+380 damage) it's another 114 + 59.85 = 173.85 so the grand total adds up to 5788.2054 damage.

Could someone please run a 10 seconds DRW parse (I'm at work now ) to compare numbers please? It would spare me painful maths.

I've been testing your rotation for a while now and I have some thought about it.
The first part until the 1st Pestilence is no problem but with the second part I have a lot of trouble keeping the diseases up.

Should the bolded Death Strike be using a Frost/Unholy rune or 2 Death Runes?
When I use 2 Death Runes it's impossible to use 4 Heart Strikes in a row because there are only 2 Blood Runes avaible.

I can use 4 Heart Strikes if I use one Unholy and one Frost Rune for the bolded Death Strike. But right after the bolded Pestilence they still have a 6 second cooldown left.
If I wait for those 2 runes to be off the cooldown then my diseases will be gone before I can use the last Pestilence.

On highlord nemesis dummy on ptr with 4118AP and jawbone, using 51/2/18, with jawbone, the drw dps is 762, without using hysteria.

With horn of winter it increased to 915.

Using death strike, drw and blood strike glyphs btw.

For a look at some raiding numbers, here's my WWS from our PTR DPS Test Patchwerk from Thursday.

WWS Link

Rotation: generally PS IT HS HS DS DS HS HS HS HS, with a priority placed on diseased HS whenever possible.
Spec: 51/1/19. I opted to trade 3 seconds of DRW (via Runic Power Mastery) for 3 seconds of disease in Epidemic. The extra time ensures those last few HS still have diseases up on more mobile fights.
Glyphs: Death Strike, DRW, Death Coil. I had taken off glyph of the ghoul because pets are useless on Kologarn currently, and I forgot to put it back on.

The parse time is a little off because WWS doesn't know how to handle mobs with strange names (Patchwerk DPS Test in this case), so the active time is actually ~5:30. The test server started lagging around 40%, so everyone's sustained dps dropped a few hundred after that point. Also, my gear was a little suboptimal for the spec-- I wanted to try Grim Toll, so I was about 2% unnecessarily over the hit cap. Ideally you'd break up 4-piece t7 for some better itemized pieces now that the bonus isn't so useful. Gear is basically what I'm wearing on live armory with Grim Toll and Circle of Death subbed in.

Some numbers worth considering:

1) Necrosis clocked in at 5% damage. It appears to no longer double-dip with caster debuffs. Curse of Elements was up, and notice, the max Necrosis hit is almost exactly 20% (give or take some rounding) of the max white crit.

2) Ghoul, raid-buffed, not glyphed: 542 dps. If that's not worth a single talent point, I don't know what is. Remember to turn off Gnaw, which for some reason is enabled by default.

3) Rough napkin math glyph breakdown: Glyph of Death Strike ~2.5% dps, Glyph of Dark Death ~1.5% dps, Glyph of DRW ~1.6% dps (~20 sec more uptime @1512 dps). If the Glyph of Blood Strike works on bosses still, it'd be worth ~5% dps. My assumption was that it wouldn't work anymore, and I wanted to try the newer glyphs--BS strikes me as intended for PvP, and would be too strong for Blood PvE dps (note the HS without it nearing 10k crits). I still need to test the ghoul glyph, but at this point, without NotD, it seems like a glyph I'd just sub in if I thought it'd make the difference on a particular fight. On others, the ghoul just isn't going to survive very long. The cooldown correctly starts at the ghoul's death now, too.

This is sad to hear, none the less its still a good talent per point.

DRW definately pulls ahead, now if you where to sack glyph of DC and use Glyph of diesease then you would actually get more dps just by getting in a additional HS over IT and PS.

Having the glyph of BS not work anymore would be sad but your max HS crit was 9600 which is pretty insane, DS hitting over 11k. I dont think glyph of DS is near 2.5%, if you are actually dumping your RP you're probably getting nothing near the max % increase from that glyph. Maybe a 10-20% increase at the most (10-20 depending on RP left) which accounts for a 1.5% increase in DPS.

If glyph of BS doesnt work, (if someone could run numbers that would be sweet) then picking up glyph of DC or even of the ghoul would be good. Im not sold on glyph of the ghoul as blood because if that pet does die then its a waste to have.

Edit: Asuming you are getting 59 RP every 10 seconds from rune usage and Butchery, your RP dump consists of 1 DC. This is kind of dissapointing since we are all used to getting 2 attacks in a RP dump. because of the 4pc t7. Even if you do use HoW you still come up short. With that being said the range of the % increase from DS could potentialy be 2.5% but that all depends on how much RP you really have left.

I ran with a 51/2/18 spec, using DC, DRW, and pest glyphs doing ~3400 dps on a dummy. It did not have EP on it, so my only buffs were self procs.

My DRW did ~1050 dps over 9 uses. If you take doing that for 28 seconds, it adds only 327 dps overall. If you take the glyph, it does ~443 dps. Therefore the glyph adds about 116 dps.

Death coil was ~15% of my dps. Well, 15% of 3400 is 510 dps. Take out the glyph, and it would do 510/1.15 = 443 dps. So this adds ~67 dps.

Death strike glyph was not used, and only 8% of my dmg. If you add the glyph, and assuming you always gain the full effect of the glyph, you add 25% more of 8%. Well, 8% of 3400 is 289. Add 25% of that, and you get ~361 dps. So DS glyph adds ~72 dps. It's barely better than DC glyph with my run. However, I would still use DC glyph due to DS having an absurdly high crit chance atm, and doing horrible dmg when used by DRW.

In case anyone was wondering, I used the DS-HSx4 DS-HSx3-Pest rotation.

Edit - no ghoul either. I do not believe micromanaging a ghoul is worth the effort to add a maybe couple hundred dps with 30% or lower up time. If the fight were 100% up time like Patchwerk, it would be worth it to me.

With some experience, its very easy to maintain those 25% simply by not using your DRW just shortly before DS. I do not have any problem bringing DS and having 26 RP (even if it would be once lower it wouldnt be too bad).

If the glyph of BS doesnt work anymore on bosses for heart strike i would choose:
Glyph of DS: Significant boost of DS
Glyof of DRW: 10 Sec is really nice
Glpyh of Dark Death: DC could be really buffed by the new sigil and set bonus so i think it will be our best choice

Glyph of the Ghoul: Ghoul dies too often and we would have to wait 2min to call him again. So i dont see any sense in using it just because there is perhaps a little more dps potential on patchwerklike fights.

Even if glyph of BS would still work, i see a big problem getting the snare effect in our raids (since there are nearly no FFB-Mages in highend-raids, having no feral for infected wounds despite of being not sure that IW still counts as snare, unholy dk is my only possibility if desercration really works).