Actually it was just TOO GOOD, period, no caveats. I was seeing HS critting for ~10200, and this is a single rune ability, while in contrast a UH DK with betrayer of humanity and superior gear was seeing his SS critting for 11000. Lets not forget that HS hits two targets, do you even need more aoe? And DRW was absolutely over the top as well.
I did Vezax, in nearly BiS gear (missing malygos boots and sarth helm) and I only got a HS crit that high maybe twice. And I was wearing a bloody Shirt of Uber so I had around 4.6k AP unbuffed and around 27% ARP. I averaged around 7k dps on our Vezax kill with a Shirt, which was lower than all the casters (although to be fair Vezax does lower melee attack speed). I'm just not seeing how it was "too good". Especially considering that fight is very Ghoul friendly. My average HS crit was 8.8k. Single rune ability or not, that's not over the top.
[edit]
It appears you max DS crit is 2.60 times your max DS non-crit. Seems really good for an attack that is supposed to be 230%. This just supports that they forgot to take DS off of Viscious Strikes.
Yeah i noticed that as well (in the same post some pages ago where i posted that image the first time).
I also made a report ingame about the DS critrate and bonusdmg, but i guess it is once more that the EU (German?) feedback will be ignored and/or they make mistakes translating the german reports into english... i don't know.
It is still very disapoiting doing tests / reporting things ingame or in the german PTR forum because you get ZERO responses.
If you get responses at all, it will be one of those "lol nerf dks l2p" troll posts. It doesn't even matter what you post, the answers will be all the same hehe.
When i compare that to the massive amounts of blueposts that directly try to communicate with the people in the USA it makes me sad.
So maybe someone from oversea should report the DS crit/critdmg bug possible caused by Viscious Strikes as well just to make sure the report reaches the Devteam.
It is the same with the "runeprioritysystem". All i get out of posts about it is QQ and trolling.
For me it is still a bug that should be fixed, for others its just "working as intended" so maybe its just me... (i am talking about the problem that when you have BB DD DD runes up the game will always use the Unholy Deathrunes first instead of the Frost runes when you use Icy Touch or Deathstrike / Obliterate which messes up the following rotation cycle).
My english isn't perfect, but i hope you can understand it.
# Heart Strike: Bonus damage for diseases is now a multiplier rather than a flat bonus. No longer affected by Glyph of Blood Strike.
Originally Posted by Illundai
I did Vezax, in nearly BiS gear (missing malygos boots and sarth helm) and I only got a HS crit that high maybe twice. And I was wearing a bloody Shirt of Uber so I had around 4.6k AP unbuffed and around 27% ARP. I averaged around 7k dps on our Vezax kill with a Shirt, which was lower than all the casters (although to be fair Vezax does lower melee attack speed). I'm just not seeing how it was "too good". Especially considering that fight is very Ghoul friendly. My average HS crit was 8.8k. Single rune ability or not, that's not over the top.
I was using a 2h Frost/Unholy IT+FS spam on Vezax. We didn't kill him, so no execute, but I never did more than 5k DPS. I was still above every caster.
Just for comparison.
Death Strike: [s]The weapon damage percent on this ability has been increased from 60% to 75%[/s](strike code not working), but the amount of healing per damage done has been reduced by 20%.
Dancing Rune Weapon: Damage done by, and duration of this pet is reduced by 50%, but the cooldown is reduced to 90 seconds.
Heart Strike: Bonus damage for diseases is now a multiplier rather than a flat bonus. No longer affected by Glyph of Blood Strike.
Just posted on MMO-C, so it looks like their intent was to reduse the time of DRW by half as well as the 50% dmg nerf. I just dont understand how they can think it is still worth the 51 pt talent.
Not correct, in the official and updated patch notes there isn't an increase in the death strike damage at all, only the nerf in the healing component.
In MMO Champion, that part is also *scraped* (don't remember the correct word).
I think the point is that they're multipliers rather than additional percentages. 40% x 1,25 = 50%. 50% x 1,2 = 60%.
Even working that way blood strike would still hit slightly harder glyphed than heart strike, factoring in the 4pc t8 bonus, and the flat bonus being larger after *1.25*1.2. I don't think I need to point out what is fundamentally wrong with being able to get blood strike higher than heart strike.
With 4 pc T8 and glyph BS is at 62.4% weapon damage. and HS at 62% weapon damage. Counting in bloody strikes this gets to 90.48% for BS to 89.9% for HS. This is only because of the fact that HS gets the least benefit from t8 4pc only 3.3% versus OB and BS 4% as they would be equal otherwise. To me the fact that HS is only as good as the glyph of BS now (exempting the cleave which provides no benefit for bosses) seems very much like something that needs to be fixed.
Edit: to the poster above me that assumes they have equal static damages which is false even with BS having a higher modifier it is still noticeably behind HS in static damage.
Was just testing some more on the PTR and came across something interesting, though it's probably just a bug. Obliterate seems to be still getting the crit damage bonus from Might of Mograine. Here's a SS of it.
I was also testing Unholy Blight there. Refreshing it every 30 seconds(was using glyph). UB wasn't up for 7 seconds total(mostly first few seconds to get 40 RP) and 14 ticks missed. Average tick of 133 gives me 3990 damage per cast. Fully unbuffed, no other debuffs on the target dummy. I wasn't using Death Coil glyph and only 1/3 Morbidity on the SS linked, so it's not a great way to judge UB v sDC, but it should out-do DC single target. And with a lot of the Ulduar fights having adds to kill, I'm really thinking 50/0/21 will be the better spec with the current DRW. Will be interesting to see what changes are coming in the next builds.
With 4 pc T8 and glyph BS is at 62.4% weapon damage. and HS at 62% weapon damage. Counting in bloody strikes this gets to 90.48% for BS to 89.9% for HS. This is only because of the fact that HS gets the least benefit from t8 4pc only 3.3% versus OB and BS 4% as they would be equal otherwise. To me the fact that HS is only as good as the glyph of BS now (exempting the cleave which provides no benefit for bosses) seems very much like something that needs to be fixed.
Edit: to the poster above me that assumes they have equal static damages which is false even with BS having a higher modifier it is still noticeably behind HS in static damage.
I can confirm through testing on ptr that bloodstrike is hitting nearly identical to heart strike(actually higher for me, but within the margin of error) even without 4pc t8. My comment on static damage was that blood strike's static damage * 1.2 nullifies heart strike's static damage advantage.
DRW + 10% damage & 10% arp vs Dirge, Unholy Blight, NotD, MoG & Morbidity maxed out. Dunno, I know it's a bit gimmicky perhaps but someone should run the numbers :p
51/0/20 (skipped RPM because of the DRW nerfs)
3238 DPS / 3min
Glyphs: DRW, DS, Dark Death
TB Heroic Training Dummy at 0%:
- No damage from Necrosis (2/5)
- HoW only
Also tested Unholy and Frost:
0/10/60+1 - 3591 DPS / 3min (no damage from Necrosis (5/5) and Wandering Plague (3/3)).
17/51/3 - 3638 DPS / 3min (Merciless Combat active).
Short info on gear: Betrayer, 4xT7.5, Obsidian Greathelm, Greatness & Bandit's Insignia
Using the same gear on armory.
Pretty big damage difference and Unholy still have the benefit of micro managing the ghoul in fights like Sartharion. Some changes are needed if they want more DK to leave Unholy for 3.1. Very nice self healing as Blood but we will loose even more damage if we go below 75%.
For most encounters on live I'd say that that spec would work out mostly because of the ghoul and it's aoe reduction and the ability to control it, but from what I've seen/heard in 3.1 there's so much raid damage flying around that the 10% damage and 10% arp from blood gorged should tip the scales in 51/0/20's favor.
DRW + 10% damage & 10% arp vs Dirge, Unholy Blight, NotD, MoG & Morbidity maxed out. Dunno, I know it's a bit gimmicky perhaps but someone should run the numbers :p
I was thinking exactly this. We have come full circle it seems; this is the sort of spec I was considering back during beta when DRW was worthless.
Ok. Everyone needs to take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard, and stop shitting up the thread with your gut reactions to MMOC's updates. There is an entire page of posts speculating/bitching about changes while the PTR was not even live yesterday. MMOC makes mistakes. Test things out, provide feedback to Blizzard and others. If you think Blood suddenly sucks you're welcome to respec and go post in your thread of choice.
This can't be repeated often enough: PTR builds are not release candidates. In other words, a PTR build isn't Blizz's idea of a possible patch. It's a snapshot of whatever they have done when they push out a build. That's why tooltips don't match up with abilities, and in general everything is in a state of flux. Blizzard is also testing, and doesn't push out every internal build. Figure out how something works, try it out, provide feedback. We're not somehow entitled to previous PTR versions of an ability-- it's basically like it never existed if it doesn't go live.
With DRW, it's important to consider what we have, not how much it changed. It's a fairly large nerf, but it was ridiculously good. In this PTR build, we have a dps ability that boosts your dps by ~1500 for 15 sec (unglyphed/untalented) on a 90 second cooldown. Need I remind you that Gargoyle is 30 seconds on a 3 min cooldown? DRW is also more customizable for burst-on-demand -- well-used, in coordination with abilities like ERW, you can get even more damage out of it. It doesn't suck. It's just closer to reasonable in its current incarnation. Given that Glyph of Blood Strike doesn't work (not that it was ever confirmed to on the PTR), Glyph of DRW is a decent boost as well.
In this PTR build, we have a dps ability that boosts your dps by ~1500 for 15 sec (unglyphed/untalented) on a 90 second cooldown.
Is that with or without raid buffs? On a boss dummy, DRW is giving 750. Nowhere near 1500.
Need I remind you that Gargoyle is 30 seconds on a 3 min cooldown?
Its not 30 seconds anymore. The tooltip says 1 minute (it currently only lasts 30 seconds, but as weve seen with DRW, the talent will soon match the tooltip). Which means Ebon Gargoyle will do around 52-55k damage in 3 minutes, whereas DRW will do 12-20k for more than double the RP cost.
The major problem with DRW is the time doesnt even allow us to get one rotation worth of disease damage ticks. Unglyphed, untalented, DRW only lasts long enough to cast: PS, IT, HS, HS, DS, DC. And according to recount, the disease damage ticks are NOT counted once DRW's duration runs out.
Is that with or without raid buffs? On a boss dummy, DRW is giving 750. Nowhere near 1500.
Its not 30 seconds anymore. The tooltip says 1 minute (it currently only lasts 30 seconds, but as weve seen with DRW, the talent will soon match the tooltip). Which means Ebon Gargoyle will do around 52-55k damage in 3 minutes, whereas DRW will do 12-20k for more than double the RP cost.
The major problem with DRW is the time doesnt even allow us to get one rotation worth of disease damage ticks. Unglyphed, untalented, DRW only lasts long enough to cast: PS, IT, HS, HS, DS, DC. And according to recount, the disease damage ticks are NOT counted once DRW's duration runs out.
1) Yes, I'm using numbers from an actual raid dps parse, which I posted several pages ago.
2) Ebon Gargoyle is different-- on live, the tooltip reads 1 min but lasts 30 seconds. That's not an indication of an incoming buff on the PTR, that's a tooltip that didn't get changed in the last patch.
3) Don't use DRW at the start of a rotation. Your DRW's diseases do pitiful amounts of damage. When I said "well-used", I'm talking about stacking your high damage abilities in its duration, which is already a good practice on live.
1) Yes, I'm using numbers from an actual raid dps parse, which I posted several pages ago.
2) Ebon Gargoyle is different-- on live, the tooltip reads 1 min but lasts 30 seconds. That's not an indication of an incoming buff on the PTR, that's a tooltip that didn't get changed in the last patch.
3) Don't use DRW at the start of a rotation. Your DRW's diseases do pitiful amounts of damage. When I said "well-used", I'm talking about stacking your high damage abilities in its duration, which is already a good practice on live.
Except that Im pretty sure Gargoyle's time was increased to 1 minute. I believe there are patch notes on it somewhere. They intended to buff Gargoyle because its a 51 pt talent now. In its current state on PTR, its only doing as much damage as the 21 pt Gargoyle we have on live. Hence, the buff simply hasnt been applied yet. Makes no sense to move it from 21 pts to 51 pts and not buff it.
Edit:
Live: Summon Gargoyle: 50 Runic Power, 30 yd range
Instant: 3 min cooldown
A Gargoyle flies into the area and bombards the target with Nature damage modified by the Death Knight's attack power. Persists for 10 sec plus 1 sec per 8 runic power up to 30 sec.
PTR: Summon Gargoyle: 50 Runic Power, 30 yd range
Instant: 3 min cooldown
A Gargoyle flies into the area and bombards the target with Nature damage modified by the Death Knight's attack power. Persists for 10 sec plus 1 sec per 3 runic power up to 1 min.
Completely different tooltips. The buff simply hasnt gone through yet.
You might be right. It's also the case that a buff to Gargoyle isn't in any version of the 3.1 patch notes, and the timer on live counts down from 1 min to 30 seconds (because it used to last a minute), not from 30 seconds to zero. It might be old tooltip data, or a buff that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Regardless, you're missing the point of the actual post, which is that DRW is still a good talent, and frantic posters should reserve judgment until they actually test the current build in a raid. And like I said before, if they nerf DRW so much that UB is better, DRW will be buffed back up again.
1) Yes, I'm using numbers from an actual raid dps parse, which I posted several pages ago.
Regardless, you're missing the point of the actual post, which is that DRW is still a good talent, and frantic posters should reserve judgment until they actually test the current build in a raid. And like I said before, if they nerf DRW so much that UB is better, DRW will be buffed back up again.
1500 dps for 15 seconds at the expense of Unholy Blight and 2.5 Death Coils. Which by your parse would be 9450dmg, (though that is likely to rise with t8, sigil, and possibly glyph if you weren't using) so you are looking at a gain of 13050 dmg under optimal conditions every 90 seconds, roughly 145 dps, which would be a 2.5% dmg increase.
While not quite accurate in this case Method's math puts Unholy Blight as a total 1.5% damage increase for unholy if you have morbidity and the dc glyph, so it should be somewhat similar for blood. Leaving DRW as a 1% damage increase in optimal circumstances.
I think the vast majority of us would agree that unholy blight's aoe value is better than a 1% to single target boost. If gargoyle does end up at 1 minute and drw/bloodstrike glyph remain in their current states, blood may actually be worse off than it is on live.
Given DRW casts blood boil, that's an absurd comparison.
Actually it's not a bad comparison. You will have to have the runes set aside to chain bloodboils during the very short DRW lifespan and those bloodboils will be only hitting for 50% damage. At most you might be able to get 5 or 6 bloodboils off. Meanwhile you can keep Unholy Blight up non-stop while also doing bloodboils, move onto another pack and continue.
The aoe power of DRW is not to be underestimated, even in it's nerfed state. I've managed to get DRW alone doing 3-4k dps on the ptr with aoe. Granted this is a bit worse than what it is on live, that's still a far sight more than the 1% dps increase you have it labeled as.
03/27/09, 1:38 PM
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