I really don't see what all the fuss is about with the DRW nerfing.
If you're doing 4k damage per second with just auto and yellow attacks (you SHOULD be doing more), your DRW will be hitting for 2k a second for about 20 seconds (being generous here with the damage and uptime estimations to skew data towards it apparantly being a bad talent). 2k*20 = 40,000. 40k/90 cooldown = ~445.
To me that still looks like almost a 10% buff to your single target dps from 1 talent point even with a fairly low dps score to begin with and a fairly low uptime.
What's not to like?
I really don't see what all the fuss is about with the DRW nerfing.
If you're doing 4k damage per second with just auto and yellow attacks (you SHOULD be doing more), your DRW will be hitting for 2k a second for about 20 seconds (being generous here with the damage and uptime estimations to skew data towards it apparantly being a bad talent). 2k*20 = 40,000. 40k/90 cooldown = ~445.
To me that still looks like almost a 10% buff to your single target dps from 1 talent point even with a fairly low dps score to begin with and a fairly low uptime.
What's not to like?
Ok, then read this.
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud
1500 dps for 15 seconds at the expense of Unholy Blight and 2.5 Death Coils. Which by your parse would be 9450dmg, (though that is likely to rise with t8, sigil, and possibly glyph if you weren't using) so you are looking at a gain of 13050 dmg under optimal conditions every 90 seconds, roughly 145 dps, which would be a 2.5% dmg increase.
While not quite accurate in this case Method's math puts Unholy Blight as a total 1.5% damage increase for unholy if you have morbidity and the dc glyph, so it should be somewhat similar for blood. Leaving DRW as a 1% damage increase in optimal circumstances.
Not exactly what one would expect from a 51 pt talent. Assuming that the Gargoyle lasts one minute...the Gargoyle deals around 55k damage every time its cast on a boss dummy, with only the Unholy DKs buffs. Raid buffed DRW does ~1500 dps for 15 seconds, which equates to 22,500 damage. Thus, itll take ~2.44 casts of buffed DRW to equal 1 unbuffed Gargoyle.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about with the DRW nerfing.
If you're doing 4k damage per second with just auto and yellow attacks (you SHOULD be doing more), your DRW will be hitting for 2k a second for about 20 seconds (being generous here with the damage and uptime estimations to skew data towards it apparantly being a bad talent). 2k*20 = 40,000. 40k/90 cooldown = ~445.
To me that still looks like almost a 10% buff to your single target dps from 1 talent point even with a fairly low dps score to begin with and a fairly low uptime.
What's not to like?
Keep in mind the DRW itself doesn't get any of your talents, glyphs, set bonuses etc; its heart strikes, death strikes, obliterates etc don't hit for half of what yours do, they hit for about as much as a wet noodle.
What i think alot of people are failing to realize is the fact that all the testing that is going on is based on CURRENT GEAR AVAILABLE. Yes the DRW nerf is a nerf to blood's DPS for entry into Ulduar but you need to take into account the slight buff to armor penetration plus the fact that most of the gear we will be recieving from ulduar is stacking ar pen. Also it just looks to be coming full circle again just like on live that pre naxx gear unholy was great as the gear level started changing and people were rolling mostly BiS items diseaseless blood started pulling ahead.
Unholy has always had an inherent problem with plateauing early when it comes to gear scaling(has been this way since beta).
Blood(even in Beta) was and still is a great scaling spec but needed and will need ALOT to support it via buffs and gear.
Frost is also a scaling spec but its always comes to be the middle ground of the three and the most consistent as there is no burst abilities(i.e Hysteria/DRW or Gargoyle)
As for the Sigil of Awareness i haven't checked since last build but it was OB for 320 SS for 150 and DS for 315.
What i think alot of people are failing to realize is the fact that all the testing that is going on is based on CURRENT GEAR AVAILABLE. Yes the DRW nerf is a nerf to blood's DPS for entry into Ulduar but you need to take into account the slight buff to armor penetration plus the fact that most of the gear we will be recieving from ulduar is stacking ar pen. Also it just looks to be coming full circle again just like on live that pre naxx gear unholy was great as the gear level started changing and people were rolling mostly BiS items diseaseless blood started pulling ahead.
Unholy has always had an inherent problem with plateauing early when it comes to gear scaling(has been this way since beta).
Blood(even in Beta) was and still is a great scaling spec but needed and will need ALOT to support it via buffs and gear.
Frost is also a scaling spec but its always comes to be the middle ground of the three and the most consistent as there is no burst abilities(i.e Hysteria/DRW or Gargoyle)
As for the Sigil of Awareness i haven't checked since last build but it was OB for 320 SS for 150 and DS for 315.
Armor pen doesn't do anything for DRW. Very easy to test with grim toll on ptr. Unless they completely change how DRW works, it's not simply 'calculate what damage the player would have done and -50%'. Str/ap are the only things I see factoring DRW damage when it's summoned, and haste effects while it's summoned.
edit: this screenshot shows just how bad DRW is, and it's lack of inheriting armor pen. I attacked the boss target dummy until grim toll proc'd, summoned DRW and used 7 heart strikes before grim toll went away.
I wasn't stating ar pen necessarily for the sake of DRW but simply the fact that blood benefits the most from this stat as it is the most physical of the 3 trees for dps. But like i said basically everyone is crying FOUL right now with naxx gear. In a month or two after Ulduar comes out, look again at how the damage will be scaling. Yes we know DRW as it stands RIGHT NOW is very weak, but what is coming soon we don't know for sure, YET.
after looking at your screenshot i come to one conclusion that i have had ever since PTR testing opened and am by no way trying to offend or disrespect you or anyone else who posted recount shots on your gear or anything else for that matter but simply as follows:
1.) Recount has always been a POOR way of measuring dps when it comes to special abilities like DRW/Ghoul/Gargoyle etc. It like to miss them for some reason
2.) GET AWAY FROM THE EBON HOLD DUMMIES OR TEST DUMMIES PERIOD.
I dont have any recent PTR WMO parses from Symbiotic's work on Iron Council or the downing of Hodir 10 and 25 man the first round with him, however i do know that my DRW doesn't have the same miss rate(dodge/parry)as yours does according to that recount.
Last edited by morrigann728 : 03/28/09 at 6:37 PM.
I just tried Blood in a raid for the first time, and it was pretty cool. The other DK we had is full Unholy, so I wanted to bring something else to the table. I'm used to being full Unholy, myself, and Blood was the only spec I hadn't tried at 80.
Looking at the 3.1.0 talent calc, I'm just wondering about the two points that are freeing up with Sudden Doom being reduced to 3 talent points. I was thinking about just moving them over to Improved Death Strike, but I don't know if there's a better place to put them.
Also, with perma-ghoul being moved down in the Unholy tree, I figured that the cookie-cutter Blood DPS spec will work that in. Will that make Improved Death Strike better than Obliterate?
Is there a theorized cookie-cutter 3.1.0 Blood spec yet?
Edit: The MMO-Champion talent calc has perma-ghoul as a Tier 6 talent, while the WoWhead talent calc shows it as a Tier 4 talent. Obviously this is a huge discrepancy, so which is it??
Last edited by brahmabull754 : 03/29/09 at 1:46 AM.
Edit: The MMO-Champion talent calc has perma-ghoul as a Tier 6 talent, while the WoWhead talent calc shows it as a Tier 4 talent. Obviously this is a huge discrepancy, so which is it??
MMO-Champion's. The positions were changed around a patch or two ago I believe.
Last edited by mastafrooper : 03/29/09 at 11:11 AM.
I just tried Blood in a raid for the first time, and it was pretty cool. The other DK we had is full Unholy, so I wanted to bring something else to the table. I'm used to being full Unholy, myself, and Blood was the only spec I hadn't tried at 80.
Looking at the 3.1.0 talent calc, I'm just wondering about the two points that are freeing up with Sudden Doom being reduced to 3 talent points. I was thinking about just moving them over to Improved Death Strike, but I don't know if there's a better place to put them.
Also, with perma-ghoul being moved down in the Unholy tree, I figured that the cookie-cutter Blood DPS spec will work that in. Will that make Improved Death Strike better than Obliterate?
Is there a theorized cookie-cutter 3.1.0 Blood spec yet?
Edit: The MMO-Champion talent calc has perma-ghoul as a Tier 6 talent, while the WoWhead talent calc shows it as a Tier 4 talent. Obviously this is a huge discrepancy, so which is it??
Improved Death Strike is a good place to put points.
Death Strike is now a much better choice than Obliterate, and this is the direction Blizz is heading in. I think this was discussed in length a few pages back in the thread.
51/1/19 or 51/0/20 seem to be the popular builds floating around at the moment, but this is all bound to change before 3.1 goes live. Again discussed in length 2-3 pages ago.
Death Strike is now a much better choice than Obliterate
Not anymore. They reverted the damage on the ability, it is now back to 60% + 172 damage and the healing is still reduced by 20% from live. It's a pretty pitiful ability for Blood's UF strike.
I have spent countless hours on the ptr testing the various dps specs for Death Knights. In my testing I have found that the latest ptr changes, specifically to the blood tree have pretty much ruined it in comparison to both the frost and unholy trees.
In my latest round of testing, I was fortunate enough to get on the ebon hold target dummy right after a server restart so the dummy was free of raid debuffs or debuffs from other people (I had it all to myself). I spent a minimum of 10 minutes testing each spec. Here are my results
Unholy (8/10/53) ~3700 dps
Glyphs:
- Glyph of Ghoul
- Glyph of Unholy Blight
- Glyph of Dark Death
Frost (13/51/7) ~3400 dps
Glyphs:
- Glyph of Icy Touch
- Glyph of Frost Strike
- Glyph of Obliterate
Rotation:
PS-> IT-> BSx2-> OB-> FS dump -> OBx3 FS dump
Note: I am actually weaving my frost strikes into my rotation but it's easier to just show the dumping points in one location
Blood (51/1/19) ~3100 dps
- Glyph of Rune Weapon
- Glyph of Dark Death
- Glyph of Death Strike
Rotation:
PS-> IT-> HSx2-> DS-> DCx2-> DS-> HSx4-> DC dump
As you can see, there is a huge disparity between the different specs. Unholy has always been the goto spec for PvE, PvP, and tanking. Up until this last patch, blood was finally starting to show promise and was on almost equal footing with the Unholy spec. Now blood is absolutely terrible.
The latest nerfs to Dancing Rune Weapon have made it a joke of a 51 talent especially in comparison to Gargoyle. You are forced to spec 2 points into frost for Runic Power Master, and use Glyph of Rune Weapon just to complete a single rotation. Even when DRW is up, it now hits like a wet noodle and is hardly noticeable as a dps increase.
Not anymore. They reverted the damage on the ability, it is now back to 60% + 172 damage and the healing is still reduced by 20% from live. It's a pretty pitiful ability for Blood's UF strike.
Ive been gone from the forums in awhile and i have not been able to keep up so much with the present situation of the blood DK. So far though i have seen DS nerfed into the ground and I am wondering if now blood DK's will just be using OB still?
Ive been gone from the forums in awhile and i have not been able to keep up so much with the present situation of the blood DK. So far though i have seen DS nerfed into the ground and I am wondering if now blood DK's will just be using OB still?
First off, I would hardly call a drop from 75% -> 60% weapon damage a "nerf to the ground."
Secondly, using Oblit is unlikely, since you have to waste 13 points in the Frost tree to prevent it from munching your diseases, which are now a required part of every Death Knight's rotation. Those points are MUCH better spent into the Unholy tree, where they will almost all go to increasing your DPS.
First off, I would hardly call a drop from 75% -> 60% weapon damage a "nerf to the ground."
Secondly, using Oblit is unlikely, since you have to waste 13 points in the Frost tree to prevent it from munching your diseases, which are now a required part of every Death Knight's rotation. Those points are MUCH better spent into the Unholy tree, where they will almost all go to increasing your DPS.
MMo champion still state that it is 75% and 225,75 per disease. Apparently there is just a nerf to the amount of healing done, am i wrong ?
It seems to me that people forget a few things about blood and why blizzard is cautious with it:
This is a spec that has the most powerful self heals for the DK
It has the capacity to spam blood runes.
It has at its core a cleave strike that hits two targets.
It now has deathstrike as an FU ability, thus not messing our DOTs like obliterate did.
The question now is: how do you make this tree attractive, beside the self healing, without making it too good for pvp by giving it also too much burst?
A lot of the discution centers around dps and pve and we forget that blizzard is looking at pvp too. The QQ about DKs is quite amazing, regardless of the fact that other classes held for a long time to an overpowered status. The QQ about DK and the fact that they made the class start at 55, has created a whole tsunami of people rerolling DK. This has in turn fed the QQ and like it or not, this affects blizzard decisions. In short, we are unlikely to see a blood tree having better dps, or even comparable dps, than the other 2 trees.
First off, I would hardly call a drop from 75% -> 60% weapon damage a "nerf to the ground."
Secondly, using Oblit is unlikely, since you have to waste 13 points in the Frost tree to prevent it from munching your diseases, which are now a required part of every Death Knight's rotation. Those points are MUCH better spent into the Unholy tree, where they will almost all go to increasing your DPS.
I honestly question that nowadays, since Black Ice is increasing shadow damage by 10% again. 2 pts in Runic Mastery for higher (albeit only slightly) uptime of DRW, 5 pts in Black Ice for 10% increased Deathcoil DPS (which you get from Morbidity, too, but Black Ice helps your IT as well), in order to get a non-disease eating Oblit. Yeah, you miss out on a few talents from the Unholy tree, but are the "spammable" (as in, not disease eating) oblits worth it?
I think 51/13/7 should be looked into once again, to be honest.
I honestly question that nowadays, since Black Ice is increasing shadow damage by 10% again. 2 pts in Runic Mastery for higher (albeit only slightly) uptime of DRW, 5 pts in Black Ice for 10% increased Deathcoil DPS (which you get from Morbidity, too, but Black Ice helps your IT as well), in order to get a non-disease eating Oblit. Yeah, you miss out on a few talents from the Unholy tree, but are the "spammable" (as in, not disease eating) oblits worth it?
I think 51/13/7 should be looked into once again, to be honest.
So looking at it, considering Morbidity and BI cancel each other out, and looking at the napkin math you get an extra GCD's worth of weakened DRW attacks, you'd take an underpowered 51 pointer and an improved Icy Touch over 3% Strength, Necrosis, Night of the Dead and Unholy Blight, just so you can use Obliterate instead of Death Strike for a marginal (if any) DPS increase on your Death Rune generators?
With perma-ghoul out of reach though, it's probably not a bad idea to try 51/13/7. I'm doubtful though that 15% IT and 10% Frost/Shadow are going to make up for even Necrosis alone though. 20% of your melee for Blood is a huge increase. 26.5% increase to IT and 10% more DC is probably noticeably less than that. Yeah, you could go 51/13/7 and spam OB, or you could spec into frost and spam OB better and get FS which is amazing atm. Until they rebuff DS and do some other tweaking to DRW, Blood isn't the brightest of stars and is in fact more like a black hole of useless.
As for DS, they still haven't taken DS off of Vicious Strikes, so that's why the giant numbers were occuring with DS, but instead they just decide to nerf DS to 60% from 75% which now makes it worse than 0 disease OB (assuming both are glyphed). Because they haven't fixed a bug they nerfed the attack.
I honestly question that nowadays, since Black Ice is increasing shadow damage by 10% again. 2 pts in Runic Mastery for higher (albeit only slightly) uptime of DRW, 5 pts in Black Ice for 10% increased Deathcoil DPS (which you get from Morbidity, too, but Black Ice helps your IT as well), in order to get a non-disease eating Oblit. Yeah, you miss out on a few talents from the Unholy tree, but are the "spammable" (as in, not disease eating) oblits worth it?
I think 51/13/7 should be looked into once again, to be honest.
15% More Deathcoil Damage
-15s on Death and Decay
3% Strength
Necrosis
Blood Caked Blade
Analysis
Now, I think that it's fair to say that Black Ice/Imp. Icy Touch and Morbidity/Ravenous Dead roughly offset each other when we examine a single target fight. Furthermore, I think its fair to assume that on AoE fights a build that has -15s on Death and Decay will easily come out ahead.
That leaves us to deal with a spammable Oblit vs. Necrosis/BCB (I'm assuming that Bloodworms are a fairly negligible DPS increase, especially given how much melee AoE there is in Ulduar).
Obliterate, assuming you've glypphed it, will be a 120% damage strike, compared to Death Strike, which will be a (0.6*1.25*1.3) = 0.975 weapon damage strike. However, Death Strike will receive a 2.45 crit multiplier, while Obliterate will be stuck with 2.00, due to the recent changes to MoM. Whether or not this completely offsets the 20% loss, I'm not sure.
However, I DO know that at the current gear levels, BCB+Necrosis is worth more than 700 DPS with BiS gear, and I don't think that the ability to spam Obliterate can come anywhere close to touching those numbers. There's also the small matter to consider in that BCB will help to increase FC uptime, but I'm going to assume that's a negligible contribution.
Frost (13/51/7) ~3400 dps
Glyphs:
- Glyph of Icy Touch
- Glyph of Frost Strike
- Glyph of Obliterate
Rotation:
PS-> IT-> BSx2-> OB-> FS dump -> OBx3 FS dump
Note: I am actually weaving my frost strikes into my rotation but it's easier to just show the dumping points in one location
Blood (51/1/19) ~3100 dps
- Glyph of Rune Weapon
- Glyph of Dark Death
- Glyph of Death Strike
Rotation:
PS-> IT-> HSx2-> DS-> DCx2-> DS-> HSx4-> DC dump
Should be interesting links to builds you used in your tests
03/28/09, 7:14 AM
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