Ive seen a few comments/disucssion on trinkets but nothing in depth and maybe no one had did significant testing on it yet. What are most people currently using for Blood, Unholy and Frost? Ive linked a few that I see most people using and myself.
I personally like this more, Im not totally sure how much of an increase 15% armor is, but I do know that at least we are increasing our AP which will increase all of our damage.
I personally like this more, Im not totally sure how much of an increase 15% armor is, but I do know that at least we are increasing our AP which will increase all of our damage.
A normal blue/epic geared DK would get ~50 AP from Toughness. You'd get a slightly higher or equivalent DPS increase from the Icy Touch talents.
I've been raiding the last couple weeks as 51/13/7 and been putting up some pretty low DPS numbers, around 2500 or so usually I think. I'll update this later once WWS is up. The rotation I've been using is the one from the DPS compendium,
PS>IT>HS>HS>OB>DC
OB>HS>HS>HS>HS>DC.
My gear is pretty decent overall ( The World of Warcraft Armory ) with a few pieces that need replacing (especially my cloak), so I'm not sure if that's the main issue. I have noticed more dodges than I'd like to see, so I know that isn't helping anything.
Reading through this thread, I've seen some different rotations people are using, but I haven't had time to try them out myself yet due to school. Are any of the rotations generally regarded as better than the one above? With the rotation I'm using, I either have to dump my second round of death coils while diseases aren't up, or reapply diseases immediately and start the rotation again, thereby "wasting" that runic power. I'm not sure which is better as my tests on the target dummy have shown both being more DPS sometimes and less others.
Edit: Here's tonight's WWS for Grobbulus, chose him because I used unholy presence on a couple bosses to see if it was any better (it wasn't). Wow Web Stats
I've been raiding the last couple weeks as 51/13/7 and been putting up some pretty low DPS numbers, around 2500 or so usually I think. I'll update this later once WWS is up. The rotation I've been using is the one from the DPS compendium,
PS>IT>HS>HS>OB>DC
OB>HS>HS>HS>HS>DC.
My gear is pretty decent overall ( The World of Warcraft Armory ) with a few pieces that need replacing (especially my cloak), so I'm not sure if that's the main issue. I have noticed more dodges than I'd like to see, so I know that isn't helping anything.
Reading through this thread, I've seen some different rotations people are using, but I haven't had time to try them out myself yet due to school. Are any of the rotations generally regarded as better than the one above? With the rotation I'm using, I either have to dump my second round of death coils while diseases aren't up, or reapply diseases immediately and start the rotation again, thereby "wasting" that runic power. I'm not sure which is better as my tests on the target dummy have shown both being more DPS sometimes and less others.
After a full night off naxx, I was putting out like 3200+ on most bosses, then I finally picked up a helm with a meta socket, and noticed 3500+, seems like a pretty big difference so far :O
Im also in unholy presence though, and Ive been doing a modified rotation. Pretty much using DC whenever I have enough runic power or SD procs, I had no problems keeping up. DC starts to become my 3rd most damaging ability.
People doubt it, but using HS / DC ( SD proc ) / HS / DC (SD proc ) / HS / DC (SD proc ) etc, in the majority of a fight is pretty awesome.
Edit: Here's tonight's WWS for Grobbulus, chose him because I used unholy presence on a couple bosses to see if it was any better (it wasn't). Wow Web Stats
Under the "heal" tag it says "blood presence". Is this correct?
So I went blood after doing unholy and frost, and I find that blood is much easier to play. I tried the standard 51/13/7 but recently went 51/14/7 for pvp reasons. Being unfearable for 15 secs as blood spec because of Lichborne against fear spammers should be pretty nice, not to mention it acts as a mini evasion against melee.
The rotation I went with was pretty much what Lazareth posted on page 2: PS > IT > HS HS > OB > DC (Sometimes two) > OB > HS HS HS HS > Runic power dump > Repeat
The question I have is should I DC no matter what if SD procs even if my other abilities are up? Also on a side note blood is much easier to play than the other specs, it seems to be pretty much a HS spam rinse and repeat. The other specs seem to rely more on procs and or self buffs being up i.e. bone shield.
Good tip on the DRW macros I will try that during my next run.
So I went blood after doing unholy and frost, and I find that blood is much easier to play. I tried the standard 51/13/7 but recently went 51/14/7 for pvp reasons. Being unfearable for 15 secs as blood spec because of Lichborne against fear spammers should be pretty nice, not to mention it acts as a mini evasion against melee.
The rotation I went with was pretty much what Lazareth posted on page 2: PS > IT > HS HS > OB > DC (Sometimes two) > OB > HS HS HS HS > Runic power dump > Repeat
The question I have is should I DC no matter what if SD procs even if my other abilities are up? Also on a side note blood is much easier to play than the other specs, it seems to be pretty much a HS spam rinse and repeat. The other specs seem to rely more on procs and or self buffs being up i.e. bone shield.
Good tip on the DRW macros I will try that during my next run.
Here's a wws to our naxx 25 last week. Wow Web Stats
The rotation I use goes like this.
IT > PS > HS > HS > OB > DC
OB > HS > HS > HS > HS > DC
One of the things that I do differently then most people is I also use death coil inside my rotation.
What I mean by that is if there is a time where I can squeeze out another dc without screwing up my rotation I do it, at first it really hard to get used to but you get the hang of it again.
There are three rules that I use for using DC's in the middle of my rotation.
1. Only use it if I have enough rune power to spare, for instance SD procs.
2. The best time to add dc's in is during Bloodlust, so if you know a BL is coming make sure you have enough rune power to use all your CD's (DRW, Hysteria, Trinkets).
3. Always use you're GCD, which is where haste and Bloodlust come into play with DC's.
Haste is a very odd stat for death knights. Has anyone done any research about it I feel like lowering the GCD isn't a completely bad thing if it lets you use another DC every once in a while with no concequence of losing out of bonus disease damage from HS and OB.
I tried using DCs only after SD procs on a training dummy yesterday and all it seemed to do was throw my rotation completely out of sync if I got more than 1 proc. From training dummies that I've used, it appears that many rotations (at least at low gear levels) that vary only in number of death coils do roughly the same damage.
I do imagine, much like casters, a specific and exact number of haste exists that allows you to squeeze in one more death coil. Sometimes adding a little more haste has allowed me to get a nicely fit rotation of death coils that I can follow every time.
The biggest question I have right now though, is why people are propogating the use of Death Strike over Obliterate for 50/0/21? The numbers say one Obliterate should be roughly twice the damage of one Death Strike, no? So Obliterate and then reapplying Icy Touch and Plague Strike costs you at most one GCD, and should provide higher damage potential than double Death Strike and not having to reapply diseases?
In a 50/0/21 build, you don’t normally us Obliterate in the middle of your rotation because it eats your disease counters on the target. When using Vicious Strike, Might of Mograine and Glyph of Death Strike, Death Strike can dish out a lot of damage.
Death Strike - Deals 60% weapon damage plus 178.2
Obliterate - Deals 100% weapon damage plus 124, and an additional 62 bonus damage per disease, but consumes the diseases.
So on the surface yeah it does more damage. Now in a Blood/Unholy build, you will pick up this
Vicious Strikes - Rank 2
Increases the critical strike chance by 6% and critical strike damage bonus by 30% of your Plague Strike, Death Strike and Scourge Strike
So with this talent you gain an extra 6% critical strike chance and a 30% bonus modifier to your damage.
Now you add in MoM which adds another 45%, so we are up to 125% critical strike damage bonus, (50% base, 30% Vicious Striek, 45% Might of Mograine)
Might of Mograine - Rank 3
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Blood Boil, Blood Strike, Death Strike, Heart Strike, and Obliterate abilities by 45%.
Then you add in Glyph of Death Strike:
Glyph of Death Strike
Major Glyph
Classes: Death Knight
Requires Level 55
Use: Your Death Strike's damage and healing increase by 2% for every 5 runic power you currently have. The runic power is not consumed by this effect.
So assuming you use DS in the rotation when you have 100 Runic Power, you could potentially have a damage bonus of ((100 / 5) x 2% = 40% damage modifier.
Maybe someone could crunch the numbers but based upon what I see, I would think Death Strike would out damage Obliterate and not use up any of your disease counters and heal you all in one attack.
Since a 1H has half the weapon damage of a 2H, then that means half of your damage from HS and OB is now gone, resulting in a 22% loss of dps, and thats not including loss of dps from DRW and PS. DW can work, but not in blood spec.
Hold on there cowboy. A 1h does not have half the weapon damage of a 2H, and there's no way that half the damage from HS or OB are gone. Take two Naxx drops:
The 1h is a 2.6 speed weapon, the 2h is a 3.5 speed weapon, so it's not double the speed, it's 35% faster. Before taking AP into account, the 2h hits for 653.1, the 1h for 373.1, so the 2h has 75% higher weapon damage... BUT, the "weapon damage" in DK abilities takes attack power into account. Conservatively, that's going to be 4k in a raid: So the actual weapon damage values are:
So the 2h is only about 50% more weapon damage than the 1h.
In addition, all the DK abilities are worded like "Hits for X% weapon damage + Y + Z damage per disease", which dilutes the weapon damage contribution even more, since only 1 of the 3 terms scales with weapon damage.
Don't go throwing around numbers like "22% loss in DPS" without actually doing the calculations.
First post here but have been following these threads carefully. This is a big sticking point for me too...I'd like to know how close a buffed up death strike can be vs. obliterate. I've been unholy for the most part since release, and tried blood the other day and loved it for every application. I felt stronger in PvP, vs. elites, and I preferred the leeching type playstyle.
I have my eye on the 51/20 build simply because for me, DRW is the funnest ability I've played with and the unique application of bonus ghouls is *fun*.
My biggest concern is without annihalation that I will be either hurting for DPS or I'll be in a awkward rotation.
I'd like to add a nice Patchwerk (well full Naxx clear actually) parse to the mix here. I've stumbled upon numerous unholy parses, etc, but not many blood. This is running cookie cutter 51/13/7. Hoping other people can share their thoughts, etc. The other DKs in the parse are definitely less geared than myself. I'm sitting at 3350AP, 26.16 crit, and 18 expertise, using Inevitable Defeat.
I think a lot of people's numbers will get better over time as the rotation becomes more natural. I find that I can now focus more on elements of the fight and still keep up some semblance of a rotation. Obviously patchwerk isn't really applicable to this since I just spam my buttons.
Anyway, mathematicians ravage this as much as you like, but here's the parse (3573 DPS):
Notes: We do not use an enhancement shaman, so we're rocking ghetto windfury. Outside of that I think we have most buffs covered. If you would like to armory me to look at gear, etc: The World of Warcraft Armory
I speced blood for first time yesterday , also 51/13/7 and used dps compendium post as a guideline for what kind of rotation i should do , which was
PS -> IT -> HS -> HS -> OB -> DC
OB -> HS -> HS -> HS -> HS -> DC
Now i played trying to do that in naxx and sartharion. The problem i met constantly is that my diseases fall off before i can do 4 HS. So i'd like to find out 'rules' for my self what i should and shouldn't do. And the questions would be:
Do i strictly try keeping up diseases 100% of the time? Do i never HeartStrike if both diseases are not up , or should i do my 4 HS even if diseases fall off? Using Sudden Doom the 2nd it pops? When a disease falls off , i start from begining :P?
I have a 67 Blood DK with this base build and I did not see this answer. Sorry if it was answered. I am seeing my DPS fall off dramatically once the diseases fall off.
I have another question about a build I have been thinking about. I think once I get Unholy Presence - Spell - World of Warcraft I will use this as my presence. Using this presence, I have been wanting to get more haste (quicker attacks). I saw that Icy Talons - Spell - World of Warcraft would increase my speed too. I have been toying around with this build because of this.
I was wondering if this was better or worse then the 51/13/7 build? I know that I would be missing epidemic and vicious stricks, but I would get faster physical strikes + causing the enemy to be slower.
Thank you for any answers regarding these questions!
Unholy presence is generally underwhelming except for specific scenarios (pvp burst, etc). It lets you chain instant attacks quickly, but regardless of what happens you're going to be waiting for your runes to refresh. So decreasing that GCD doesn't do as much as you would think.
Blood presence has been proven to surpass unholy is all aspects of DPS.
As for the HS with diseases falling off, that means there was a delay somewhere else in the rotation. But depending on what set of runes you're on (blood or death) you'll want to continue HSing. If they're blood runes, go ahead and use them to get them converting to death, then get your diseases back up. Obliterating with no diseases is a no-no though, which is why it's squeezed in the middle of the rotation where the diseases will always be up.
General rule for RP dumping is dump when your other abilities are on cooldown (as blood). So generally after your first oblit you have time to spam off 3 DCs if you have a sudden doom proc. The other opportunity is usually at the very end of the rotation waiting for Frost/Unholy to come up. Never DC in between. Obviously this doesn't apply if there's movement. If you're running around away from melee, throw your deathcoils.
Under the "heal" tag it says "blood presence". Is this correct?
Yeah, I used blood presence on that fight. What I said wasn't really clear now that I re-read it, I meant that I used unholy presence on some bosses, so I didn't want to look at those. Grobbulus is one that I used blood presence on.
Now you want to trade all of that just to be able to cast Obliterate once possible twice every 20 sec rotation so it doesn’t eat your disease? That is some nice filler if you ask me. I am spec’ing 51/0/20.
I wouldn't call 3% crit chance to my melee specials filler, or making IT hit ~70% harder.
I'd actually say that Necrosis in a 2handed build is roughly a 2.5% DPS increase while 3% crit to Heart Strikes is more.
That aside, I'm curious as to why keeping diseases up as Blood is so incredibly imperative. Wouldn't it, for instance, make more sense to Death Coil immediately if SD procs, so as not to simply refresh it if it should happen again after your next Heart Strike, but actually get two zero-RP, guaranteed crit DCs in?
If the last HS in your rotation loses 220 bonus armor mitigable physical damage (440 when critting), is this not a smaller loss than not using that 2500-3000 shadow damage crit early and allowing for another one to be used at the end of the rotation?
I personally see slightly better numbers since I started doing this, haven't run anything big and tank-spanky like Patchwerk yet.
The fist rule should be to never delay your runes. So if that DC will delay spending your rune for half a second, don't do it. If you do it once, you'll do it again, and it adds up. Less runes spent, less strikes-spells, less RP, meaning less dps.
Don't have any math, seems logical
Yes that makes sence for the Unholy Presence. I will have to take another look at that. As for my diseases falling off, I use my Heart Strikes as soon as the runes come up. Here is the typical rotation that I use:
PS -> IT -> HS -> HS -> OB -> DC
OB -> HS -> HS -> HS -> HS -> DC
Diseases off
The diseases fall off the last 2-3 HS or sooner even (right after the second OB). After this I can tell my DPS falls off dramatically. I was hoping that UP would help speed up this rotation so that I can get it all off.
Any answers regarding the Icy Talons rather epidemic and vicious strikes would be great too.
Skipping Blood Gorged is a silly idea if you're going that deep into Blood. 10% damage to everything > permanent ghoul.
Anyway, I ran a little test on Death Strike vs Obliterate(50 of each attack, both glyped and unglyphed). 50 of each is a very small sample size, but hopefully enough to draw a distinction, I'll be the first to admit I'm far from a statistics person. These were also done on the heroic dummy. Here goes!
First, Obliterate, unglyphed. I had an inordinately high crit rate on this one, so I'm sure it's somewhat tainted.
50 Obliterates: 127357
27 Crit(54%)
22 Hit(44%)
1 Dodge(2%)
Min Avg Max
Hit: 1238 1411 1549
Crit: 3288 3567 3912
50 Death Strikes: 56315 Damage
34 Hit(68%)
15 Crit(30%)
1 Dodge(2%)
Min Avg Max
Hit: 657 724 804
Crit: 1879 2114 2432
Fourth, Death Strike Glyphed. I did these all at 100 RP to give it the full benefit of the glyph, which is very unlikely to happen in an actual DPS scenario.
50 Death Strikes: 64531 Damage
40 Hit(80%)
9 Crit(18%)
1 Dodge(2%)
Min Avg Max
Hit: 915 984 1055
Crit: 2654 2806 3005
I want to reiterate that this is again, a very small sample. It looks like there may be an intersect at a certain crit% that would push Death Strike over Obliterate, unfortunately I don't have the know how to model any of this stuff. But for my level of gear, I don't see 2 Death strikes beating out Obliterate and reapplying diseases.
I also want to toss in a Patchwerk 10 WWS of my own: WWS Report.
That's just my personal breakdown. Group was: Arms Warrior(Improved Shout), 2 Protection Paladins, Enhancement Shaman, Shadow Priest, Frost Mage, Marksman Hunter, Holy Priest, Restoration Shaman, and myself. Flask of endless Rage, and a Great Feast. Using the following rotation:
IT>PS>HS>HS>Oblit>DC
IT>PS>HS>HS>HS>HS>DC
Hysteria on myself, I outgear the arms warrior right now so it seemed of better use on myself. 3,347 DPS.
1. You cannot lower your GCD with haste with any ability, it is not possible.
2. Don't underestimate unholy presence as blood, I have been able to pull out 3500-4000+ dps on most bosses throughout naxx with fairly decent gear. You just need to adapt to your normal rotation ( IE you are capable of using DC at just about any time you wish without worrying about your diseases falling or runes refreshing, rather then be restricted to while your runes are on cooldown ).
Ill start to save my wowstats for you all to see when I do 25man this week.
1. You cannot lower your GCD with haste with any ability, it is not possible.
2. Don't underestimate unholy presence as blood, I have been able to pull out 3500-4000+ dps on most bosses throughout naxx with fairly decent gear. You just need to adapt to your normal rotation ( IE you are capable of using DC at just about any time you wish without worrying about your diseases falling or runes refreshing, rather then be restricted to while your runes are on cooldown ).
Ill start to save my wowstats for you all to see when I do 25man this week.
Haste does in fact affect the GCD on spells, so it affects Death Coil, Icy Touch and the likes. It doesn't affect melee abilities however. I believe blood was superior to unholy presence, because the lower GCD won't help you as much as the increased damage would as what limits your damage is not the GCD, but the generation of runic power.
12/03/08, 1:19 AM
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