I'll be testing out a build with and without UB today and will post my results. I'm also going to start including our temp ghoul in my testing. I am curious to see if 2 points in NoTD is worthwhile. My instinct is saying that having a ghoul available every minute and a half is more worthwhile than say 2 points in Necrosis. Not to mention 10 minutes off of AoTD will be nice.

I did not see this posted at all, and with some of the recent changes I was wondering if anyone else has tried testing the following rotation:


IT-PS-DS-HS-Pest (to apply diseases)
DS-HS-HS-HS-HS
HS-HS-DS-HS-Pest
Glyphs used: Disease, Death Strike, Dark Death.

This rotation would yield 7 HS's and 2 DS's, as opposed to the standard 1 IT, 1PS, 6HS, and 2 DS rotation.

I personally do not have high end dps gear, however from some of the testing I have done, this rotation does seem competitive. Each additional HS, gives a 15% chance for a free DC, which may make up for the use of a major glyph slot.

With both glyph of DRW and glyph of BS being essentially removed for us Disease, which fell behind both, is now a viable option. The main problem with the latest build is that they wanted to lower blood DPS but they did it entirely through DRW and the BS glyph. Which basically forces us to spec only 50 points into the tree and removes both of those glyphs which were among the strongest we had. The damage nerfs they wanted were too large to be concentrated without completely destroying the ability.

Ive tested the 50/0/21 build and Im getting nowhere near the DPS hes proclaiming (~2700-2900). In all the tests Ive done, 51/2/18 comes out on top. Even despite the nerf, Ive found the glyph of DRW to still provide the most benefit.

Lushen, how did you find that 51/2/18 compared to 51/0/20 (assuming DRW glyph)? That poster was comparing 51/0/20 (DRW glyph) to 50/0/21 (UB glyph), right?

How is 5 seconds of DRW bad for us?

I still find 51/2/18 to come out on top.

Just doing the quick napkin math...on an 8:40 test on a dummy I got these values.

Melee: 230 hits, 567312 damage, (25.5%)
Necrosis (2/5): 230 hits, 42184 damage (1.9%)
BCB (1/3): 30 hits, 28647 damage (1.3%) (Notice the proc rate is just over 13%...)
DRW: 167888 damage (7.0%) - w/ 2/2 RPM and DRW Glyph.

The total uptime of DRW for the 8 casts was 152 seconds. Removing 2/2 RPM would reduce that by 24 seconds. So 128 seconds. So 128/152 x 167888 damage, for the approximate DRW damage without RPM = 141379 damage.

If Im not mistaken, BCB is better than nerfed Necrosis, so lets take those 2 points from RPM and put them into BCB, for 3/3 BCB. So 28647damage/30 hits = 955 average damage on BCB. 230 x 0.3 (BCB proc chance) = 69 procs.

69 x 955 = 65895 damage.

0/2 RPM, 3/3 BCB, 2/5 Necrosis: 42184 (Necrosis) + 141379 (DRW) + 65895 (BCB) = 249458 damage
2/2 RPM, 1/3 BCB, 2/5 Necrosis: 42184 (Necrosis) + 167888 (DRW) + 28467 (BCB) = 238539 damage

Now, perhaps my assumption is completely wrong...but given a raid setting, it would seem to me that DRW would get far more benefit from raid buffs than BCB...more than making up for that minuscule damage difference.

Secondly, a lot of ppl arent considering the fact that 2/2 RPM allows for more Deathcoils to be cast while still getting the bonus from the DS glyph. Maybe my tests have just been flukey, but when my RP is 25-30, my DS only hits for 2600-2800 non crit and 6500-6800 crit. With more than 50 RP, my DS shoots up to 2900-3050 non-crit, and 7100-7450 crit.

It feels like the DS glyph is 1% damage per 2 RP atm. Not 2% per 2 RP.

I was planning on doing a 50/0/21 build when 3.1 comes out. What major glyphs should I be using?
Dark Death and Death Strike seem guaranteed, but should I use UB glyph or glyph of the ghoul?
Would the added Ghoul survivability/damage outweigh having extra UB uptime?

So I was intrigued by Xrkar's post about a rotation involving glyph of disease so I decided to test it a bit and see how it fared compared to other blood rotations. Here's my set up:

Glyphs: Disease, Dark Death, Death Strike
Spec: 51/0/20
Buffs: HoW, fairly certain there was no EP although it could have gotten on there at some point.
Time: 12:30
Other: Popped Ghoul, Hysteria, and DRW on cooldown, made sure to pop DRW right after a disease refresh so it would get as many strikes as possible.



Good results overall I think for the disease glyph. Compared to some earlier tests using PS-IT-HS-HS-DS/DS-HS-HS-HS-HS using DRW glyph, I did a solid 100-200 dps more with this rotation. With how easy it is to maintain and 'reset' I think it's worth exploring more. I'd like to get a chance to see it in a live raid though before passing any judgment on it. Any thoughts on this?

I am tired, and have a lot to catch up on...but I decided to post anyway. I really like the idea of the disease glyph...but what about this. Instead of using pestilence to change the rotation and gaining 100-200 dps, instead you used the glyph so you don't take the epidemic talent, and instead take Morbidity? That would be like a 1.21% damage increase according to your chart there...but you would loose that extra HS. unless I missed something, which is entirely possible.

*edit* my comment was extremely flawed. I drank some caffeine and did some math. That is roughly (very roughly) 1/3rd the % of damage increase you get from the extra HS. The increase in death coil damage would only be about 40 dps as opposed to your 100-200 dps.

Why didn't you use 51/0/20? (For me, 2/2 IBA makes more sense than 3/3 BW & 1/1 VB after seeing how much raid damage is going to be spread around. More time above 75% life = more chance at doing 10% more damage.)

After the nerf to Necrosis damage, that makes the most sense to me. 1 point in epidemic to keep our diseases back to 18s like they are on live with 2/2 and SD/DC dumps get an extra 15%.

Im just not seeing the benefit of the Glyph of Disease. The extra Heart Strikes not only have to beat out the damage produced by PS and IT...but also the damage from the lost major glyph slot. The DRW, DS, and DC glyphs all account for about 1.5-2% dps each.

I could be completely wrong...but it doesnt seem like 1 extra HS is > 1 PS, 1 IT, and either glyph of DRW, DS, or DC.

Based on Swarly's numbers, the DS glyph accounted for ~82549 damage (3.36% of total damage....assuming full 25% glyph bonus), DC glyph accounted for ~41252 damage (1.68% of total damage), and based off of my numbers posted above (167,888 DRW damage in 152 seconds, or 8 casts) the DRW glyph accounted for 44181 damage (1.84% of my damage).

I just cant see how the 1 extra HS will outperform those numbers.

I think it is possible for a GoD build to pull away (or, at least, remain competitive with the standard trifecta) due to that added 1 HS every rotation, as well as squeezing in an extra DS. Plus, we're also considering an extra 15% chance to proc an additional DC.

I guess I could hypothesize why it would do so well, but until I can get into a raid situation, yeah...

Just thought I would bring this discussion up as well. In the unholy thread they've been talking about the switch from t7 25, and 10 man to t8 25, and 10 man as being a down grade. Further discussion is going on here. It's very interesting and I am curious to find out if the same would hold true for blood dks.

The math was all done here for you, but it is gone now. Yes the disease glyph does more damage by a small margin even if you factor in DRW glyph and IT and PS. However, according to Tehax you shouldn't post if you are tired and haven't played in a while. So in order to meet his interests, I have deleted all the math I did and turned a long and surely annoying post...because who really likes statistics...into this.

Took some of the points here and tested them, starting with messing around with my numbers in Unholy adding points into Morbidity. Hit as high as 3400 during some limited testing this morning. I then went back to a more standard rotation using Glyph of DRW in response to Lushen's post. Here's the test:

Glyphs: DRW, DS, DC
Spec: 51/0/20
Time and buffs were same as last test, I don't believe there was EP but I could be mistaken.



So apparently my previous tests of this spec were way off, whether it was due to bad execution of cooldowns/rotation on my part or something else I don't know. So the Glyph of Disease's only real advantage appears to be how easy rotations become while using it, but overall it probably won't overtake DRW. Anyone else get any numbers similar comparing these two?

Because in those extra 3 seconds, you can get an extra 2-4 hits with DRW (and considering DRW's melee hits alone will top 4k in a raid...). 3 seconds of DRW will scale far more than 20% higher chance for BCB.

And also because you can cast more Deathcoils per rotation while still retaining the DS glyph bonus.

Have you taken into account the drw nerf? Using Kahorie's new simulator I'm showing 51/0/20 to be pulling ahead by about 100 to 200 dps.

Yes, I have. Look at the numbers I posted earlier on this page. 3/3 BCB, 0/2 RPM barely beats 1/3 BCB and 2/2 RPM in boss dummy tests. And those calculations dont take the reduced number of Death Coils into account, nor the possible reduction in DS damage if RP is too low. And DRW will scale better with raid buffs than BCB.

3/3 BCB accounts for maybe 1.8% more dps in a raid compared to 1/3 BCB.
2/2 RPM allows for slightly longer DRW (and considering it white crits for ~3300 on a boss dummy, it can do quite a bit in 3 seconds in a raid), more Death Coils per rotation, all the while keeping the constant 25% buff to DS.

Just look at the actual numbers.

So if 5 seconds of the DRW glyph is worth 44181 damage in my tests, that means 3 seconds of DRW is worth around 26509 damage, or 1.1% damage. Now, just to show that my Death Coil argument is actually true, compare my 51/2/18 numbers to Swarly's 51/0/20 numbers.

In both cases, Swarly ran 12.5 min DPS tests. In the first test he cast 127 Death Coils and in the second test he cast 150 Death Coils. Which comes out to an average of 10.2-12 Death Coils per minute with 51/0/20.

Now look at my 8min 40 second test.



~14.3 Death Coils per minute. Pretty substantial increase. (Im ignoring the Death Coil misses because Im assuming Swarly had some misses as well). So if we increased my dps time to 12.5 mins (based on my 124 DCs in 8.67 mins) that comes out to 178.84 Death Coils cast in 12.5 mins with 51/2/18. 28-51 more Death Coils cast in 12.5 mins than 51/0/20.

So again, I really dont see how 3/3 BCB is going to beat out 2/2 RPM.

Has anyone done any work on what the best gear is in 3.1 for blood with the buff to ArP? I think we will totally ignore the t8.5 and go with all offsets, these pieces have caught my eye. Or is stacking ArP going to be worth it?

Clockwork Legplates
Boots of the Underdweller
Girdle of Embers
Decimator's Armguards

Lushen, are you factoring in ghoul uptime into that equation as well? With 2/2 NotD, our 1.5 minute cooldown buddy will be able to wreck a bit more face in Ulduar than an untalented one.

That's why I can forsee 51/0/20 being the build of choice over 51/2/18. Boss dummies really don't allow for us to successfully emulate proper raid damage situations.

I didnt count the ghoul in any of my tests, but I was specced for it.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9757