My question stemming from alot of posts regarding specs, is regardless of 51/2/18 or 51/0/20, why are people not maxing out necrosis? Is max ravenous dead really that worthwhile an investment?
20% auto spell damage from the white hits versus 1-2% extra strength(~35-70ap at ~1400 Str)

Necrosis was recently seriously nerfed because they removed the double-dipping

It's most likely still better though, the only reason Ravenous Dead could be better is because of the high benefit your ghoul gets.

Live from the PTR:

DRW was casting IT/PS along with me, and the relevant diseases were popping up on the dummy. Will HS/DS benefit from the DRW applied diseases?

No. You benefit only from your own applied diseases and DRW only from it's own

And if Im not mistaken, its best to wait to cast DRW until after PS and IT.

Edit: Was thinking of the wrong talent.

Ah, youre right, duh. Im not sure which is better...but 3% Strength affecting all abilities sounds more beneficial than a nerfed Necrosis.

Any chance of getting these builds linked?

When comparing UB vs. DRW you also have to consider the burstpotential. An ability that does high burst damage but same average dps as another one is more powerful in my opinion. There are many fights where DPS is needed over a short period of time. Sarth 3D for example. You stack all your power (Bloodlust, Hastepots, Hysteria, Trinkets and DRW) to burn down one drake, because it's a very dangerous situation. When all drakes are dead the DPS on Sartharion himself is not that crucial.
So DRW comes out way ahead in such situations.

Still, UB is an AOE ability and should not be nearly as good as DRW against single target. DRW needs to be much stronger single target for a 51 Talent compared to UB.

Glyph of Disease is not competitive. This was covered a dozen or so pages ago.

You at best gain very little and at worst lose damage by using Glyph of Disease. This is because each refresh drops a DoT tick from Blood Plague and Frost Fever. Even if you ignore that loss the gross damage gained is still less than half of what any other DPS glyph provides.

The following posts are ones I wrote on the subject. The results for Glyph of DRW and the Ghoul are pre-nerfs, but the former remains clearly better even if you halve its numbers:
Post #1
Post #2

I've been away a while (I'm tanking now thanks to our feral druid leaving) but as I still love Blood DPS and am planning to spec it come 3.1 I thought I'd update my FAQ. The current one will stay intact as we've still got a few weeks until 3.1 drops. Comments are welcomed as I'm only now really looking into the DPS changes.


Blood DPS : The Specs
The "130RP FTW" Build (51/2/18): The idea is max out your runic power and blow Dancing Rune Weapon. You gain 3 additional seconds. Also you can pump out more Death Coils per cycle as seen here.

The "Single Target I Need a Ghoul" Build (51/0/20): Your ghoul will be up for a minute and available every 90 seconds so the uptime is high. This build buffs the little buddy (and you) at the cost of a few points in Necrosis. Preliminary testing shows it is inferior to the 130RP build.

The "Single Target Who Needs a Ghoul" Build (51/0/20): If you're bad about popping your ghoul and/or lazy then try this build.

The "F Single Target & Go Go AOE" Build (50/0/21): Basically you're sacrificing single target DPS (with Dancing Rune Weapon) to gain a second RP dump and some AOE dps with Unholy Blight. The argument (pretty persuasive) for this build can be found here.

Note: There is still some debate on which points in Unholy are best DPS wise. Some argue for Necrosis over Ghoul buffing talents and vice versa. Until there are some numbers I can link use the above as a guideline and spread those last few points at your discretion. If there is no general consensus I'll just do a talent by talent explanation of pros and cons.

The Gear
Q: I just hit 80 and exalted with Ebon Blade. Can I go Blood now?
A: I really wouldn't recommend it. Blood is fairly gear dependent. You're using a lot of Heart Strikes and Obliterates which need a nice big fancy weapon to do big numbers. Running in with [Runeblade of Demonstrable Power] and expecting to keep up with the similarly geared DW DK is asking for heartache.
Q: So when the heck do I start putting my points into Hysteria so I can cast it on myself and laugh at the rogues and fury warrior?
A: When you have a nice big slow 2-hander. At least something like the [Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver]. The harder the hitting the weapon the better your dps.
Q: OMG I just spent my badges on [Sigil of Haunted Dreams] am I going to bring the pain?
A: No. You will not. And when people inspect you they may laugh. Stick with the [Sigil of the Dark Rider] until Heigan stops being rude and hands over his [Sigil of Awareness].
Q: But what about the cute [Sigil of the Wild Buck]? It sounds sexy.
A: As sexy as it may be [Sigil of Awareness] and [Sigil of the Dark Rider] are still better until Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drops in Ulduar. (Though a little more math on the subject would be nice.)

The Rotation
WIP


The Presence
Blood
Pros: 15% damage to all your attacks. You hit like a truck and make mobs cry.
Cons: Blood has a very tight rotation. In a movement heavy fight you may feel penalized. Also due to the limitations of a 1.5 second GCD you can't just fire off death coils when you have the time. The idea is the 15% damage to all your other attacks outweighs the potential extra death coils each cycle.

Unholy
Pros: You can run real fast....no but really, you're not limited by the GCD so in a movement heavy fight you can squeeze in another Heart Strike before your diseases tick off. You can also squeeze in a few more Death Coils.
Cons: You're losing out on 15% extra damage to every attack you make. You're not dual wielding or a rogue but a big hoss with a 2-handed weapon. Not hitting like a truck could make you cry.

Frost
Get out of my FAQ.

AOE
Q: My BFF is spec'd into Howling Blast and/or Wandering Plague and just laughs as he spams stuff and wins. What do I do?
A: Cry. No I'm just joshing ya. Remember we got a CLEAVE. Part of Blood AOE is discretion. Ask yourself a series of questions when coming into an AOE pack. Am I glyphed in DnD? Are these things going to go down in a few seconds? Am I wearing underpants?

Generally when you're pulling a pack of elite mobs it's best to go PS>IT>Pestilence>Heart Strike>Blood Tap>DnD. Then just worry about keeping those diseases up while you cleave for win.

On squishier fare (like the baby drakes on Sarth) you'll go DnD>PS>IT>Pestilence. Then they're dead and you're back on the boss. Remember you're not a Frost or Unholy DK. Use your discretion and glower at them...and the mages...and the warlocks...and that freakish Shadow Priest that tops the meter every dang time. Bastard.

Q: But what about Blood Boil? Isn't it buffed in 3.1?
A: It IS! On groups of 3 or less you'll still get more bang for you buck with Heart Strike. It's on the larger AOE packs that you want to consider Blood Boil.

Glyphs
Glyphs are partially dependent on spec. The two "required" glyphs are [Glyph of Death Strike] and Glyph of Dark Death. These glyphs buff two of your primary attacks.

Q: I used to used [Glyph of Blood Strike]. Why isn't it required now?
A: Check the patch notes. This glyph no longer works with Heart Strike (your primary attack).
Q: So what should sit in my third glyph spot?
A: If you're spec'd into DRW then go with Glyph of Dancing Rune Weapon. If you're spec'd into Unholy Blight you can try Glyph of Unholy Blight.
Q: What about [Glyph of the Ghoul]?
A: Jury is still out on it. It is decent but currently doesn't seem to benefit you DPS as much as the above mentioned Glyphs.
Q: And Glyph of the Disease? It seems like it would be a nice trade.
A: Except it isn't! See here and here and here.

Itemization and Gems and Professions
Q: I got my T7 helm. What meta should I load into this puppy?
A: [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] is the choice for you. Don't believe me? Read this.
Q: This slot doesn't require a blue or a red or a yellow what do I stick in it?
A: [Bold Scarlet Ruby]
Q: Clearly the above answers my question for red slots as well. But what of yellow or blue slots? That socket bonus is tight yo.
A: Do you REALLY need that socket bonus? Okay. What evs. Might I suggest something from our lovely [Etched Monarch Topaz] or [Fierce Monarch Topaz] line? What? You need to match a BLUE socket. Very well. Many find our [Sovereign Twilight Opal] to be a fetching shade.
Q: Shut it! I want some attack power or armor penetration or crit. They all seem to be flashier.
A: Flashier maybe, but not for you. Remember you get a ton out of Strength and it counts for about 2 attack power. That's sexy. And although Armor Penetration was "buffed" in 3.1 it still isn't better then Strength for gemming. As for crit, it lost some of it's value in 3.1. In fact it lost enough of it's value that haste is actually the better stat for gemming.
Q: Quick! Haste or agility on my cloak?
A: Survey says...haste. Agility adds a little crit (which we now know is an "eh" stat) and dodge. Hastes adds...haste!
Q: Later in this FAQ you make a big fuss about sunders and you're telling me not to gem for Armor pen? You're dumb.
A. No YOU ARE. The armor pen you gain from your gear and debuffs is more then enough.
Q: So haste or armor pen when I choose gear?
A: Armor pen. Haste benefits you melee swing and your death coil. Armor Pen benefits HS, Oblits, and Melee. A lovely fellow did the math to back up the statement here.
Q: I noticed you're an engineer? How's that working out for you?
A: Currently Hyperspeed Accelerators give you 340 haste rating for 10 seconds every 60 seconds. Someone better with arithmetic then myself did the math. It comes out to about 57 haste rating static which beats out 44 attack power. If you were daft like me and went Engineering then enjoy, but they're currently not worth dropping another profession for.
Q: Man I haven't even started leveling professions yet. What do you suggest?
A: Plenty of threads show the pros and cons of each profession. JC/BS is currently the best for an eager little minmaxer.

Things to Remember
Q: Halp! I fail on the Boss Dummy and my dps is only so so in raids. WHAT I DO?
A: Um...is sunder up? Look at your damage. More then 50% of it comes from physical attacks which are mitigated by a target's armor. That means your warrior has to sunder or your rogue has to expose armor. It also means you may not do the same damage as an identically geared DK spec'd into Frost of Unholy. They rely on more attacks that are NOT mitigated by armor.
Q: My DPS still fails. Blood is dumb.
A. Blood is like a lot of DPS classes. Stacked cooldowns can make or break your dps. DRW and your Ghoul get their stats and dps from you. If you pop them just whenever you'll do okay DPS. If you pop them when a trinket and Fallen Crusader procs and cast Hysteria on yourself AND blow your other trinket or racial all right as Bloodlust is being popped? Profit.
Q: So I pop my ghoul and DRW at the same time? Right before or right after Bloodlust?
A: Tricky. DRW benefits from Bloodlust if it has just been popped on you. Ghoul, like most other pets beyond your control (mages know what I'm talking about) must already be summoned when Bloodlust goes. Work with your shaman and raid leader. In a former life I raided as a mage and had a VERY annoying DPS macro that indicated my pets and trinkets and other goodies were all being blown. Shamans could notice that and pop BL after they saw it....or at least I like to think that's why they did it.
Q: My Dancing Rune Weapon is not wise and is attacking from the front. Is there a way to stop this?
A: It is a bug. For now use this macro which should solve the issue.

Why are people putting 2 points into epidemic when the duration untalented is the same as live talented. Was this reverted back or did I miss something?

Why are you saying glyph of disease costs you ticks of diseases? I'm curious since the only problem I can see is blood plague dropping off early because there are no more ticks thus botching your rotation. If anything i would think it increases the number of ticks since it keeps your ticks coming every 3 seconds whereas every time you IT/PS you reset the time until the next tick thus losing all the time between the last tick and when you IT/PS.

It's effectively irrelevant. The Glyph of Disease is at best half as good as the worst of the three other DPS glyphs (excluding Ghoul), and that's if you assume no damage is lost from refreshing. Unless something drastically changes this is all the average player needs to know.

You are correct that refreshing via Glyph of Disease does not cost disease ticks (a mechanic I'll cover shortly). Still, you're at best breaking even and at worst losing DPS. What follows is a detailed explanation why. To summarize the points I will make:

• To use Glyph of Disease you must either take 2/2 Epidemic or have a rotation which shifts Pestilence down by 3-6 seconds each repetition.
• 2/2 Epidemic lowers DPS, because that second point must be taken from a DPS talent.
• Glyph of Disease extends the duration of the DoT on the primary target. Excess duration not divisible by 3 will not result in another tick unless refreshed.
• Shifting Pestilence is effectively lost DoT time, and greatly diminishes the number of Heart Strikes one theoretically gains.

First, recall that both Blood Plague and Frost Fever tick once every 3 seconds. For the sake of simplicity we'll assume they've been applied at the same time, and will treat them as one DoT that ticks for 1k damage every 3 seconds for 15-21 seconds (depending on Epidemic). Note also that for Glyph of Disease to function at all we must use Pestilence before DoT drops, whenever that may be.

Next, consider the DK DPS cycle. All standard cycles take 18-20 seconds to complete, specifically the time it takes for one's runes to refresh twice. Additionally, all standard cycles are identical from one repetition to the next. This means that unless you begin to deviate from the rotation the application of our DoT must occur at the same point in each repetition.

This forces Glyph of Disease rotations to do one of two things. A) Take 2/2 Epidemic in order to force our DoT's duration to extend to 21 seconds. B) Deviate and refresh before the DoT expires at 18 seconds. Option A is actually the better of the two options, but is still a DPS loss as the additional point must be taken from a DPS talent (nor does it change the core fact of the first paragraph).

Option B is worse. But first it is important to understand how Glyph of Disease actually functions.

Glyph of Diseases follows the same mechanics as Lacerate or Deadly Poison. Reapplication via this method does not delay the DoT damage, it merely resets the duration. Any excess duration not divisible by the DoT's tick time is kept, but will not tick again unless reapplied before it drops. This only applies to the target on which Pestilence is cast, all secondary targets will have the DoTs reset and DoT ticks delayed.

Because we don't have 2/2 Epidemic we can't refresh at or after 18 seconds, which is the source of Option B's major failings. Consider the following rotation:

After the first repetition we push the refresh back to HS7, and on the next to HS6 and so on. The issue should quickly become apparent. While we aren't losing any DoT damage per se, the point of refresh is being continually pushed back. We effectively lose one HS every 8 repetitions.

So the lost Heart Strikes from Option B are effectively equivalent to the lost talent point in Option A. However, Option B also carries with it the significant burden of an unstable rotation, making it needlessly more difficult to execute.

To conclude, Glyph of Disease is not a good DPS glyph. It's at best far worse than any of its peers and at worst a DPS loss.

I'm slowly updating the FAQ (my this is a chore!) and I've come across a few questions that a browsing of the last month's comments failed to present an answer to.

1. With the change to Armor Penetration and Haste how has their worth changed compared to Strength?
2. Blood boil got a nice buff for Blood (and is a god send for Blood tanks) but is it now better then Heart Strike on 3 or more mobs? Obviously it would be inferior on two or less. If not when does it become better? I'm assuming that 4 or less you Heart Strike and 5 or more you blood boil.

Blood Plague and Frost Fever are both 12 Second duration without Epidemic, adding two points in Epidemic adds 6 Seconds (3 Seconds per point) so if you talent Epidemic you get 18 Seconds duration on both diseases.

With 3.1 the base duration on both diseases has been increased from 12 to 15 Seconds so you only need one point in Epidemic to achieve the same duration you can on live with two talent points in Epidemic.

I understand the requirement to get a 2nd point in epidemic is still a dps cost. What I was specifically pointing out is how you GAIN DoT ticks with glyph of disease in direct contrast to what you were saying.

So at 18 seconds both get a BP tick. at 19.5 both get a FF tick. however at 21 seconds with glyph of disease you get another BP tick whereas it won't come until 23 seconds with a normal rotation. Yes this means that the second point in epidemic is useless for a normal rotation however it also means that you get 2/3 of a DoT tick every 20 seconds with glyph of disease. This is a 22% increase in DoT damage. This is very small however this is means glyph of disease is a 16.7% HS damage increase and 22.2% DoT damage increase but at the cost of all IT and PS damage and 1 talent point. You can't dismiss a glyph on the grounds that it requires a 1 talent point cost as well.

Edit: To Leaflock:
I'm curious since crit has become better with the changes to sudden doom. Also the nerf to MoM was reverted so that is gone. This means there is a buff to crit from talents alone although the different stats may be the difference. Also hit looks incredibly low. Pre-cap i would think that Hit > Expertise. This is simply because they give equal percentages although hit affects spells as well whereas expertise doesn't. If the number is for between melee cap and spell cap then that makes sense though. Was wondering since it sounded to me as though you were talking about pre-cap although that could just be a mistake on my part.

This is very interesting to me. When you get back from work, can you please post the official numbers you got from the simulator?


Mainly is the fact that you are giving haste a higher value than crit. To me, even with what you said, I don't see how haste could be worth more than crit. I know haste was buffed, but what exactly makes it SO much more valuable now than in 3.0.9?

I suggest you do some testing of it yourself. It sets both diseases to their maximum duration. It does not however reset the ticks. The ticks continue as if it was still 1 long duration. This is the point I am trying to make to you. Refresh != reset as reapply = reset. The major downside(which for all purposes should be fixed but until it is glyph of disease will never be possible) is that BP falls off after it ticks with less than 3 seconds remaining. FF does not as it has it's secondary effect but BP will and this destroys the rotation as now you are down to 1 disease. The point is that the way you think of glyph of disease is not how it works in practice and that it does not reset the ticks.

I have just finished running Pestilence tests on Live and the PTR. Obviously I couldn't specifically test the Glyph on Live. All tests were run on the level 60 Expert's Training Dummies in Orgrimmar. Here are the results of my test.

Live:
Pestilence resets diseases on secondary targets, delaying DoT ticks.

PTR (Without Glyph of Disease):
Pestilence resets diseases on secondary targets, delaying DoT ticks.

PTR (With Glyph of Disease):
Pestilence resets diseases on secondary targets, delaying DoT ticks.
Pestilence refreshes diseases on the primary target, they will continue to tick at the same intervals as before without delay. However, whatever remainder which is not divisible by 3 will drop before ticking again unless refreshed.

So you are in fact correct and I am modifying my posts appropriately. I had assumed that the primary target effect would be identical to the secondary. A case should be made to bring the secondary into parity.

This does not, unfortunately, change the verdict on Glyph of Disease's usefulness. In the "ideal" case the additional DoT damage balances the lost DPS from 2/2 Epidemic, but does not change that the gross damage gain of the Glyph of Disease is still half as good as any of the current three (ignoring Glyph of the Ghoul). Additionally, the tighter one executes one's rotation the smaller the fractional DoT ticks become. At the (impossible) ideal, 18 second rotations, the benefit disappears entirely.

I just want to make certain that any benefit possible from a glyph is not overlooked so that all possibilities can be completely covered.

The part you mentioned about 18 second rotations is new to me. How would an ideal 18 second rotation be possible outside of Improved Unholy Presence?

I was thinking that the perfect would be 20 seconds and as such gave my numbers(which I would like to correct is 11% disease damage and not 22%, did 2/9 instead of 2/18) for the perfect situation where a looser rotation would give more benefit.