That's exactly what I was trying to do, and I'm glad to be corrected.

Edit: Which I have been a second time. The "18 second rotation" is impossible, as proven by AtheistGod and others later in the thread.

The 18 second rotation is the product of weird rune refreshment mechanics. There's a small buffer between when a rune refreshes and when you use it (~2 seconds). So long as you use the rune within that buffer, it will act as thought it was used the moment it came off cooldown.

As a result you can theoretically treat runes as refreshing every 9 seconds instead of every 10, thus reducing our rotation time from 20 seconds to 18 seconds. In practice this is impossible, as the minor factors of latency, player error, and haste rating (reducing the GCDs of IT and DC) will add variances and throw off these rotations.

So you can easily, for example, pull off the following rotation consistently once you get ramped up:

PS -> IT -> HS*2 -> DS -> DC*1
DS -> HS*4 -> DC*2

That rotation takes 19-19.5 seconds depending on haste, latency, and player error. Heroism can really screw you up though.

I still don't see how the rune refresh mechanic can reduce the time from 20 seconds to 18-19. It will allow you to have say a 12 second and 8 second portion of the rotation however once a rune is used it still won't be available the second time until 20 seconds later. because that 2 second window only occurs when you have spent 2 seconds without using the rune. So in order to benefit from that mechanic requires you giving up an equal amount of time.

Doesnt that make the 2nd point in Epidemic rather valuable then?

Is the Alternate-Blood rotation still not viable with the new changes?

DS>IT>PS>HS>HS>DC>DC
HS>HS>DC>HS>HS>DS>DC>DC
IT>PS>HS>HS>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DS>IT>PS>DC>DC
HS>HS>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DC>DC

(This is of course my live rotation and some DC currently in place may not be useable with the new Sudden Doom changes, as well this factors in RP over time and from other outside abilities [rebuffing Horn of Winter, Arcane Torrent etc])

I would figure that opening with Death Strike would be more beneficial for the raid since it will be now granting Abominations Might.

Not really b/c by the time your diseases drop off you are only using Deathcoil anyway.

In addition to the point made in the post above, taking 2/2 Epidemic won't add any DoT damage because you're reapplying diseases before that extra tick anyway. Normally I wouldn't bother mentioning it, but you weren't very clear on what aspect of the rotation warranted your question.

You can do that without complicating your rotation so thoroughly. Simply open with:

DS -> PS -> IT -> HS*2 -> DC
HS*2-> DS -> HS*2 -> DC

On the next repetition you can resume the standard rotation.

I think it may only be a valid concern for Frost and Unholy, as they have talents that increase damage when a specific disease is on the target. Blood does not need to worry about that since applying the diseases again before they wear off will still result in the same amount of damage so long as you remain above 75% health.

On the other hand, Frost would lose the benefit from both Glacier Rot and Tundra Stalker if they didn't refresh Frost Fever before it wore off, effecting Frost Strike as a RP dump and also the power of IT, PS, and diseases when they want to put those diseases back up after they fall off.

Blood is a little bit unique in even that diseases being up increases your offensive power, it's not quite as important that they stay up 100% of the time so long as they're up when you're using HS.

Yeah, the results were a bit odd to me, too. I ran a significantly longer sim (500 hours) on the latest DK simulator with my current gear, and here are the resulting EP weights:

Strength	2.70
Arm Pen	2.22
Expertise	1.74
Haste	1.25
Crit	1.25
AP	1.00
Agi	0.88
Hit	0.55

These make more sense to me. Haste and Crit are roughly equivalent, which makes more sense than the inflated haste value form before. Hit being so low is interesting, since I'm running the sim with a total hit rating slightly below the cap. Regardless, that doesn't concern me, since you can easily assemble enough hit across a few good armor pieces.

How much Arm Pen do you have in your current gear? Have you tried bumping your Arm Pen up/down to measure the effect on the value of Arm Pen?

The changing value of additional Arm Pen in relation to current Arm Pen is an interesting dynamic.

(yes, the low value for hit also seems quite odd. makes me worry about the results as a whole.)

Arp gets better than Str, once you have some more. That will be about 350 rating.

It's actually not that odd. If you are close to the cap then the value dramatically decreases. It's only natural.

I'm pretty sure he's seeing a low value for hit because the simulator uses an EP step of 50, meaning when it does it's tests for hit rating, it increases it by 50 to see what kind of damage gain it is. If he's close to the cap, lets say 10 below, he'll get the same main benefit from going up 10 hit rating as he will 50 hit rating, but the simulator only sees the 50 gain compared to a 50 point gain of other stats. Essentially, what Zanador said is true, the main value of a sim like that is finding the value of haste/crit/arp in relation to str/ap.

So what's its value at 400? 500? 600? 700+?!? ...and what kind of dps does a blood DK do with that much Arm Pen?

With items alone, one can nearly hit 750:

Stormedge
Dragonsteel Faceplate
Might of the Leviathan
Shoulderguards of Opportunity
Stylish Power Cape
Winter's Icy Embrace
Decimator's Armguards
Bladebreaker Gauntlets
Girdle of Embers
Legplates of Double Strikes
Melancholy Sabatons
Strength of the Automaton
Power Enhancing Loop

(with Greatness & Grim Toll)

At that point (probably before) it would worthwhile to regem all those str gems as Arm Pen too....adding another 165 Arm Pen. (edit: ran sim after sim, ArmPen never passed Str)

All told we could clear 900 armor penetration.

(edit: to add even more penetration....if this approach catches on, we should call it "Maximum Penetration" )
(edit: run kahorie's sim for thousands of hours tweaking the above max pen setup, ArmPen never eclipsed Str. Either Lollersk8er & I are wrong, or Kahorie's sim is wrong)

I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but would the new Armor Pen changes put Grim Toll past Darkmoon Card Greatness?

Take all Hit and Expertise values generated from a sim or spreadsheet with a grain of salt. In addition to the EP stepping complication that Andoras already pointed out there's also the fact that Hit and Expertise not only increase the average DPS (which is captured by the sim/spreadsheets) but also reduce the variance in DPS (which is completely unquantified in most sim/spreadsheet models). Reducing the variance can play a much larger roll in some cases than merely increasing the average. For example, out of 100,000,000 hits if one is doged it's only a .0.000001% reduction in average DPS, if two are doged it's a 0.000002% reduction in average DPS, but in the real world if two are doged in a row it's a much more significant loss than just the damage from the two missed swings.

The above is not true. A rune becomes available after both of these conditions are satisfied:
1. The rune previously became available >=10 seconds ago
2. The rune was last used >=8 seconds ago

As a steady state average, a rune can still only be available every 10 seconds. Try it yourself. Mash Heart Strike over and over. Start a timer on the 3rd Heart Strike. You'll never get more than 2 Heart Strikes per 10 seconds as a steady state average. And no cheating by using FU abilities to create death runes, either.

I sent what follows in a PM to AtheistGod already (as he previously asserted your points). Once I'm home from work I will double check the rotation I posted, as I'm 70% sure that it is endlessly repeatable but could obviously be wrong.

If it isn't endlessly repeatable then clearly you both are correct and I am once again in error. It if is, I'll have to ask for others to attempt to corroborate, as it would point to some heretofore unknown mechanics of rune refreshes and I'm not egotistical enough to believe I've stumbled across anything new or important.

EDIT: I've just finished testing on the PTR. The rotation takes the normal 20 seconds to complete due to very small delays between certain portions of the rotation. I am thus proven incorrect, and am again modifying my posts to reflect this.

That was the point of my post above. If the rotation takes 20 seconds, dont we want diseases that last 21 seconds? I realize we wont get the last disease tick, but wouldnt the extended time guarantee our Heart Strikes all hit with the bonus from diseases?

Perhaps Im misunderstanding the rotation.

Are the last two attacks in the rotation death coils?

Just ran a few sims using Kahorie's simulator. The main purpose was to test the value of hit/expertise rating when not capped, and also test the power of crit/haste/arp at higher levels.

Unless stated otherwise, all tests were done with 4 pc T7, BoH, Ulduar Sigil, specced 51/2/18, and lasted 500 hrs.

Sim 1
Str: 1241
Agi: 241
Armor: 15756
AP: 600 (not actual AP, just additional AP from gear)
Crit rating: 750
Hit Rating: 210
Haste Rating: 267
ArP: 350
Expertise: 75

Strength	3.13
Arm Pen	2.30
Expertise	1.65
Haste	1.17
Crit	1.65
AP	1.00
Agi	0.86
Hit	2.39

Sim 2
Str: 1400
Agi: 350
Armor: 15756
AP: 600
Crit rating: 900
Hit Rating: 280
Haste Rating: 400
ArP: 500
Expertise: 155

Strength	3.04
Arm Pen	2.88
Expertise	0.04
Haste	1.16
Crit	1.68
AP	1.00
Agi	0.96
Hit	0.00

Avg dps: 5794

Sim 3
Same stats as sim 2, except using 4 pc T8 instead of 4 pc T7.

Strength	2.48
Arm Pen	2.41
Expertise	0.17
Haste	1.06
Crit	1.44
AP	1.00
Agi	0.93
Hit	0.13

Avg dps: 5772

Sim 4
Same stats as sim 3, except using only 2 pc T8 and added 100 ArP (assuming tiered gloves and shoulders can be swapped with ArP containing items).

Strength	2.70
Arm Pen	2.48
Expertise	0.19
Haste	1.25
Crit	1.41
AP	1.00
Agi	1.03
Hit	0.13

Avg dps: 5860

Interesting results. Looks like the ArP sweet spot is about 500 ArP rating.

These stats also create an interesting situation for Blood DKs when it comes to Plated Leggings of Ruination and Clockwork Legplates. Lets assume: Str = 2.8, Hit = 2.1 (lowballing a little if the player is not hit capped) , ArP = 2.4, Haste = 1.2 (a bit high), and Crit = 1.6 (a bit high).

For PLoR we get 181 str, 93 crit, 62 Haste (using 1 Dragon's Eye, 1 Inscribed Monarch Topaz, and 1 Bold Scarlet Ruby) = 730 value.
For Clockwork Legplates we get 152 str, 62 hit rating, and 78 ArP rating (using 1 Dragon's Eye) = 743

If we keep all that stat values the same, but increase Strengths value to 3.2 to further increase PLoR's advantage (with the same gems).

PLoR: 802.4
CwL: 803.8

Assuming my napkin math is correct, the only way Plated Leggings of Ruination seem to beat Clockwork Legplates (if youre not hit capped) is when you add a second Dragon's Eye into PLoR, which seems pretty wasteful, considering options like Belt of Colossal Rage, Bitter Cold Armguards, Frigid Strength of Hodir, etc.

Because of how people are viewing necrosis differently after they removed the double dipping I decided to test it.
I did 4 short little tests only a couple minutes long but the results seem pretty consistent. I did a auto attack only and auto attack only with ebon plague bringer on the target as well as 2 normal rotation tests with ebon plague bringer up on one and not on the other.

The percentages of my melee that necrosis was came out to about
16% on the no ebon plague bringer normal rotation(i think this may be caused by this being the shortest test only a minute, so it varied)
18.5% on the normal rotation with ebon plague bringer
18.8% on auto attack only without
18.6% on auto attack with

The thing that jumped out to me during the testing was that the exact amount of necrosis seemed to vary in % from the auto attack. The numbers seemed to range from about 15% to 20%. I was wondering what could be causing this variation in the value of necrosis from hit to hit.

From my own WWS, I think the variation may come from partial resists. Necrosis is subject to such resists.