Asari

It also appears that the talent calculator isn't stopping you once 61 points are in

You can have more than 3 JC BoP gems in your gear (which you shouldn't be able to)

Turn off the filter for BoP JC patterns doesn't seem to work either.

 

• Zurm

These bugs are not specific to the DK module, the purpose of this thread is mainly to determine bugs in the DK module specifically. If you post them here, the main author will fix them.

 

Cabal

Sorry, already answered above.

 

joypunk

Regarding Expertise having no value.

Expertise gems are listed with no point value. The [Precise Dragon's Eye] is listed at the bottom of the list when selecting a gem while [Quick Dragon's Eye] is listed near the middle of the list. This order doesn't change whether the character is expertise capped or not.

Also, the stat graph has Expertise on the legend, but there is no line associated with it on the graph.

 

Sh4d0wfury

All expertise on gems, items and enchants doens't change its ranking. If you look at the stats weights, expertise is currently listed at 0, even with a character with no gear on. The expertise line metioned in above post is probably at the bottom of the graph. This on 2.1.6

 

• Zurm

Looking into the expertise issue as well.

 

huntcaudata

If it helps at all, expertise rating is also not added in the calculation for expertise in the summary pane, only talents, etc. are shown there.

Also, the tier gear problem is especially problematic for me, because I get an error when I attempt to add an item:

1) Armory updates do not work for me. They never have, though. I have no issues accessing armory regularly (nor do other spreadsheets have issues loading data from the armory)
2) Update Item Cache from Wowhead gives the error: Error processing request: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
3) The same error is given if I attempt to add the piece manually with a wowhead link.

 

• Zurm

Again, an issue with Rawr in general, not just the DK module. I have links to the main Rawr thread on the first post of this thread, hopefully Astrylian can be of more assistance with those issues. Just from a quick guess, it seems to be a connection issue of some sort, perhaps a firewall?

 

huntcaudata

I understand, I was more just confirming the strangeness around tier pieces not showing up I guess.

Some general feedback about the tank module (who is the developer for this?): TTL doesn't really make sense without context. How much damage is each hit dealing, etc? Mitigation could be calculated for the armor value (percentage reduced). It appears that frost presence has not been implimented yet. DK tier gear is missing socket bonuses. DK "clicky" abilities should be added to the temp-buff section. It appears that blade barrier is always included, but that's not clear (an asterisk/mouse-over would be good). DK buffs could also be added (though I think all are covered by other buffs), i.e. horn, ebon-plague, abom's might.

I've just noticed something funny. I am comparing rings, and Titanium Earthguard Ring is listed at 23.94 "avoidance" (with a 41 stam gem), and Sand-Worn Band is at 23.21. This is enough to rank the crafted ring above the second. However, the actual differences of the TER over the SWB are:
+20 Stamina
+4 Defense Rating
+6 Dodge Rating
-6 STR
-38.5 Parry Rating (inc. strength)

Even with extreme diminishing returns, there's no way 4 defense and 6 dodge outweigh 38.5 parry. There must be something strange in the formulas. Also, both of these rings, and many others, have a mitigation value, which isn't accurate, as none has armor (or agility). The only possible mitigation they could provide is through improving IBF after the patch, and I don't think it includes this yet. Is there some other definition of mitigation that rawr is using?

Not neccessarilly DK specific: It doesn't appear that the Night-Elf 2% avoidance is included anywhere.

 

daia

This is actually independently added in the modules.

 

ebolad

That would be me.

Yeah, TTL is just some number thats right, but its serves its purpose: give a measurement for quality of gear and spec. All the other tanking modules do something similiar. I calculate the uptime of each DK clicky and average it over time.
Damage per hit is a difficult thing: How much damage should one hit do before mitigation? 100 or 100k? How meaningful is it to know that one hateful of patchwerk does withing the window of 5 seconds where all clickies are up? I thought providing an average number would be the way to go.

The rest is on the todo list, especially health and armor values. If anyone knows how to get them right, please let me know.


Mitigation is calculated by the TTL you get by our armor and hp (cf. wowwiki).
Avoidance is the TTL you gain by dodging, parrying, etc attacks.
So mitigation improves the value of avoidance. Just thing about it: Tanking something with 100hp and 99.9% avoidance will get you killed eventually!
This is the reason why Titanium Earthguard Ring is rated so high: It has a s***load of stamina. Also look at the DR Ratings (Thats part of the reason why I show them): The returns for parry rating are a good chunk less than for dodge and defense. Parry rating is also more expensive in terms of item budget.

I'm already working to convince the other devs that we need some user documentation, just no luck so far :-)

 

huntcaudata

No, I understand that you need to choose an arbitrary, average value (or allow user input), for TTL calculations. What I'm saying is there's nothing in the interface that tells me what that number means. Is that seconds that I'll live without heals? Milliseconds? Just some point value with no conversion to time? For the TTL number to be useful it should be defined (I'd suggest TTL with no heals in melee with, say, 30k hits at 2 second attack speed to start. customization for adding magic damage, different attack speeds and damage levels could be added later). I also didn't know it averaged in all the clicky abilities. I think that's a good way to do it for a catch-all number like this.

I have to disagree with your definition of mitigation. Mitigation is used almost universaly to indicate the amount that incoming damage is reduced (that 30k hit above only hits for 9.5k after armor, etc.). It has nothing to do with stamina. Stamina increases health, effective health, and TTL, but has nothing to do with mitigation. I guess maybe the other tanking rawr modules do this as well? What you're talking about should be called effective health instead.

According to my calculations (tankspot formula):
4 def, 6 dodge is worth ~.06+~.113 = .173 avoidance at my level of gear, with diminishing returns.
38.5 parry is worth .465 avoidance.

Now I can see, however, thanks to your explanation of "mitigation" in rawr, "avoidance" is the same. Neither is actually a mitigation or an avoidance value, but how a measure of how much an item increases TTL when not avoiding, or avoiding, respectively. I suppose that makes sense, but I maintain that it's confusing, and we should use better names.

 

ebolad

It's 1000 dps raw +crit -avoidance. It really doesnt matter. I could have given it any name and multiplied it by pi. It doesn't matter it's arbitiary. Adding attack speed only really matters for boneshield (I approximate that at the moment, but I have something in the queue) and runestrikes. Magic damage is of course another topic, but there is not very much you can do against it, beside speccing right and adding stamina.

It's very hard to measure burst resistance. Astryl has a similiar problem with valuing stamina too high at high health levels. If you find yourself dying from bursts give mitigation more value.

I'd call damage reduction just damage reduction. It's hard to get some percent number into one value with avoidance and threat. The mitigation part means: ttl increase by mitigation stats, and avoidance respectively: ttl increase by avoidance stats.
If you have better (equally short) names, please let me know.

If you think 20 stam is worth less than 0.3 avoidance just chance the scaling. That's why i introduced it :-)

 

huntcaudata

Let me just ask a simple question, then. My rawr says my TTL is 319.6. What does that mean?

Like you said, you could have multiplied by Pi, but that's not very useful. Why not give TTL in seconds against a reasonable damage stream? You're right, attack speed doesn't matter, I'm just trying to provide context. It's far more useful to tell someone, "Against patchwerk, who hits 1/second, with average unmitigated damage of 20k, you will live 15 seconds without heals" (numbers made up), than it is to say, "Your time to live is level orange".

Also, now that I know what the optimizer values are, it makes sense. I don't know if I'd value 20 stam over .3 avoidance or not, before I was confused because I thought it was actually saying that 20 stamina is more avoidance (which isn't true). It's saying that 20 stamina provides more TTL, which is probably true given your parameters.

As for better names, "mitigation" is actually effective health. "Avoidance" doesn't really have a generally accepted term. Like you said, some user documentation would clear this up.

Avoidance, def. "A numerical rating based on how much a piece of gear will increase TTL given avoidance"
Mitigation, def. "A numerical rating based on how much a piece of gear will increase TTL given no avoidance"

 

ebolad

Your gear is better than mine. It's only for comparison.

Because thats not useful as well. In a raid you'll get healed or you'll die.

You have to know that in terms of TTL stamina (and damage reduction in general) increases the value of your avoidance stats. I choose the name TTL to give a hint on how it is calculated.
And move your mouse over the "TTL Mitigation" and "TTL Avoidance" strings.

 

huntcaudata

Well, you're right to a degree. The most helpful thing would probably be to allow inputs for frequency of heals, etc. and give a probability that a spike kills you, but programming that would be a mess. To say that it's not at all helpful, though, is being specious. It's directly helpful in some circumstances, say Maexxna, or when both healers have to move away on Grobbulus 10-man, and it's indirectly helpful in that it gives an easily understandable measure of how good a piece or set of gear is. You have the choice of providing a measure that is, while not perfect, at least somewhat (I'd say very) relevant, and providing a measure that is totally arbitrary. Why would you choose the second?

This is especially important when people are trying to use the tool as you mentioned, setting weights for different attributes of gear. How am I supposed to decide between a piece of gear that increases my TTL "purple" and one that increases my threat "windows"?

Anyway, sorry for harping on you about it, the entirety of the work here is really good. It just seems like an easy choice to make to me. As for the definitions, I don't really care what things are called, just that I know what they mean, which I do now that you explained it (but any new user may have no idea).

Edit: I just saw your note about the mouseover on the TTL strings. These are totally unhelpful, since I don't even know if the number given is in seconds or hours, how much damage it assumes, etc.

 

ebolad

While a TTL value has no meaning per se, it can be compared to other TTL values and that is what we want, dont we?

While it might be possible to integrate heals and such, I don't think it's worth the effort. In most situations you'll get healed enough, in which case TTL = infinity.

 

Vlar

Not sure if I am doing something wrong, but I am noticing a difference between my rawr stats and my armory stats,

Armory
# Dodge: 24.55%
# Parry: 20.87%

Rawr
# Dodge: 23.95
# Parry: 30.13

Am I just misunderstanding what I am seeing?

Edit: I think I get it, 10% from Blade Barrier and then diminishing returns, correct?

 

ebolad

Correct.

 

Nathariel

Have noticed that the talent tree is a bit out of date, Black Ice is still stating Frost and Shadow, and Frigid Dreadplate is still 2% per point.

In the DPS module the value for avoided attacks shows 0.00% all the time, while the mouseover shows what I assume are correct values for dodge and miss.

Also, in the Tank module, is bonus armour being included? Noticing no change when I swap from the [Amulet of Autopsy] to [Chained Military Gorget]

 

firewulf

After looking at my various helmet options, I got to wondering on how you're weighting the various meta gems. As far as I know, the "best" option has been the [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond], but Rawr shows that as significantly worse than the [Swift Skyflare Diamond]. I'm talented into Unholy Aura, but is it possible that the module is still giving weight to the run speed increase anyways?

It's entirely possible, I suppose, that the AP has more value, but I'd like to know what stage of completion the theorycrafting is on this issue, within the module.

 

• Zurm

I'm looking into this.

I'll look at this too, but even though the visual stats on the tree may be out of date, the numbers used in the module aren't.

 

jxfaith

Getting some wierd output from the main stats page when using custom rotations... listing diseases at around 3.7k dps and howling blast at nearly 37 thousand dps.

I'm hesitant to follow the module's gearing advice when it's skewing some part of my rotation (dw 32/39) horribly out of perspective.

Perhaps it is simply a glitch with custom rotations?

 

• Zurm

Yep, and DW is a bit messed up for MH right now. As of right now, I'd say the spreadsheets are the way to go for DW stuff.

 

Bloody_sorcerer

Veteran of the 3rd war is currently (2.1.7) not adding any expertise in the DPS module.