DW Tanking Builds 3.3 - updated 12/01/10 - Page 11

Kyosujin · 01/13/09, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kaziel

Arguably the reduced swing timer on Rune Strike is a negative thing on multiple fronts. First off, since Rune Strike is based entirely on Primary Weapon damage and is a "on next attack" ability, thus meaning it's not normalized, using a two-hander will do more damage per attack. Essentially, it's just a white DPS (thus TPS) increase, and since the DPS of a 2H is, obviously, higher than that of even the slowest 1H of equal iLVL, Rune Strike is firmly ahead in this category.

In addition, since Rune Strike's damage scales with the damage done by the normal attack, that means that the more times you attack for less damage, the less powerful each attack in a DpRP situation. Even if you were to use two different 2H of equal DPS... for example: [Runeblade of Demonstrable Power] and [Sword of Justice] (I chose these examples they show a broad range of speeds while sticking to just 2Hs).

While both have approximately the same weapon DPS of 169. But there's a damage difference of 40-62, so that assuming that both are able to do Rune Strike for every attack a minute, the one weilding the Runeblade of Demonstrable Power needs to cast it 1.36 more times per minute than the one with the Sword of Justice to put out similar DPS. That's Runic Power that could be spent on something else, unless you have a Blessing of Sanctuary, whereas you probably have more RP than you can shake a stick at.

Not to mention that the damage difference is actually there no matter what RS is not normalized so the additional 0.3 attack speed that the Sword of Justice has translates into a more effective use of the DK's Attack Power.

These flaws mentioned above are even further exaggerated by using a 1H weapon. First off with a faster attack you need to spend more RP to try to have every white attack a DK does become a RS (assuming it's even possible with a 2H let alone a 1H). And the damage is no where even close with a 1H since RS only uses the main hand for it's damage.

Alright let me put this out there:

Assuming you took [Sword of Justice] and [Infantry Assault Blade]

Could IAB ever overtake SoJ in terms of RS damage with the follow environmental variables:

1. RP supply is unlimited.
2. RS is always up for the next melee attack.

as well does RS use the special hit cap?

Napkin Math: (please correct me if I'm wrong)

IAB: 22 attacks per min (rounded down)
SoJ: 15 attacks per min

calculating using max damage:

22 x 440 = 9680
15 x 772 = 11580

obviously SoJ wins out. So how many more attacks would we need on a 1h to match the 2h?

11580/440 = 26.
26-22= 4.

Now since many DW builds use Imp Icy Talons: 2.60 / 1.25 = 2.08

IAB: w/ IIT = 29 attacks per min

440 x 29 = 12760

For fun let's calculate RP cost:

29 x 20 = 418
15 x 20 = 300

The results seem pretty comparable as long as you meet the RP costs.

Seguder · 01/13/09, 4:35 PM

I've been trying every possible talent spec / gear combination as DW Tank I could imagine / have the gear for. I'll go through them one at a time.

Except Blood and the Unholy specs detailed below, I tanked every 25 man boss. Parries were not an issue and I am usually hovering at around 70% avoidance - more or less depending on RNG. Had fights where I ended up with 21% of the time being hit. Therefore I would avoid going into gear / survivability discussions as I do believe most of them have already been covered.

What I do want to talk about, though, is my experience so far as a DW tank in 25 mans and what I managed to understand / discover spec wise. Read through, Unholy proved to be quite a big surprise.

Common talents used in all build combinations:
- Blade Barrier
- Bladed Armor
- Toughness
- Nerves of Cold Steel
- Anticipation

No spec was built without the above.

1. Deep Blood (51 - No DRW)
- lowest threat of all DW builds tried. fully (10 man) buffed - only tried it in a 10 man naxx - was struggling to break 3.2-3.5k TPS

2. Deep Frost: tried both with and without Guile of Gorefiend, with and without Tundra Stalker.
- highest threat of the above (2.) combinations was always a build that included both GoG and TS.
- highest avoidance spec of all due to Frigid Dreadplate, Unbreakable Armor and Lichborne
- very spiky threat, highly dependent of Killing Machine procs; unlucky streak and I am struggling to break 4k; lucky streak and 6k is usual (TPS).
- the very spiky nature of the spec makes it a bit less reliable when you have a 25 man's dps-ers to worry about; hopefully this changes with the next patch with a more reliable TPS output
- overall the spec is great to play with; feels nice, especially when you're on a KM spree

3. Deep Unholy (51p)
- this was the biggest surprise for me; I'm still trying to adapt to the play style; boy does this spec deliver...
- self buffed (HoW and BS) I was breaking 4.2k TPS easy
- managed to overagro MT (Warrior) on 25 man Malygos; standing on the dragon's side, not taking any sparks. Threat was breaking 8k per second
- the downside of this build is that it takes a while for the solid threat to build up; it builds slowly until all diseases, DnD and Unholy Blight are all up and running, but once they are there it's insane
- I only managed to try it on 25 man Malygos and 10 man Sartharion; we don't have a protection paladin and even without BoSanc, runic power was decent. If maintanking I would use Rune Strike, Deathcoil does the job just great if offtanking.
- I did not watch the numbers but I strongly believe it has the highest scaling potential in a raid. It benefits from both spell increasing buffs / debuffs, as well as melee ones. The damage range would usually be Melee, Death and Decay, Unhloy Blight with slight shifts between the latter and either Deathcoil or Rune Strike, depending if tanking or not.
- The spec feels very weird to play compared to every other spec I tried. Maybe due to it's "build-up" nature, it's not that ecstatic as others may be, up to a point. When you take a look at Omen.

This worked best with 26 expertise (capped dodge), capped (melee) special hits and max AP available on the gear I had. Also, Blood Boil seems to be following the above scaling logic, it hit for more than Blood Strike, at least given the raid setup I managed to run the spec in.

The sequence would start with laying DnD, then 1 rune of each on Plague Strike, Icy Touch and Blood Boil. This only produces 55 RP. Fortunately next patch Unholy Blight only costs 40 RP so that's great. For now, immediately after runes are blown up, either DC or RS as a power dump. Repeat with one of each of the above again, DnD finishes cooldown, then just alternate Unholy Blight and another power dump, aiming for 100% UB uptime. Normally, this means every other rotation. 15 Seconds and threat goes wild. I'm still experimenting with the build and playstyle, but so far it pleases me the most.

12/8/51 is the spec I run.

Butchery is nice for that extra RP generation needed to keep close to 100% uptime on Unholy Blight. Frost talents are a no brainer.

Naturally, more effective on tank and spank fights or less movement involving fights, due to Desecration. I'm no number cruncher, but i don't believe this has a make or break impact on the performance of this spec.

I feel Death Runes are counter productive for tanking, or at least for my play style. In each spec I tried one, it only messed up the rotation. The same for with Rime proc.

No scourge strike. Even if that deep in unholy, using scourge strike messes up everything in the above rotation, any time I tried a 2 rune strike made the DPS (when testing on dummy) / TPS lower. Anti Magic Zone was worth its talent point 5 times every time I dropped it.

Still, too little testing made so far, we'll go for a fresh Naxx clear tomorrow and I may have more observation after that. So far it's simply surprising.

My only regret so far is passing on all of the major 25 man upgrades in hopes of going for that juicy expertise gear advertised somewhere around the forums (here and / or tankspot). I saw no point in grabbing it from others when I was about to get proper ones for myself shortly. RNG failed me again, as far as expertise gear was concerned, the only drops being headpiece and neck.

Now that I've done all the tests I'd go for that set upgrades for the more avoidance, stamina and strength in a breath. That can only improve the Unholy spec more. Expertise seemed to have little to no effect over the dodge cap. (Never tested with less).

Guess the wall of text turned out to be pretty big. Unfortunately I have no idea how to measure all of the above from a threat standpoint. Point me to some tools, if any, and I can't wait to be able to also provide documented support for all of the above to be more than just words.

If you want to try something new, let yourselves surprised by this, I'm still wondering how it's possible. We're still far from saying the class has been known inside and out, aren't we?

Zerath · 01/13/09, 5:30 PM

29x20=580

Which is a huge RP difference for someone without BoSanc.

Kyosujin · 01/13/09, 5:39 PM

As a DW tank, what else do you burn RP on? Is it more efficient than RS? (With the exception of tanking cooldowns) aside from IBF of course. Not trying to be offensive but if we've established that RS can be viable for DW, then it's simply a matter of establishing a rotation that can generate 580 RP in 1 minute.

Kaziel · 01/13/09, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by JALbert

Even if you have slightly less AP, you're getting more mileage out of what you *do* have with your offhand swings. I don't really know how the damage %s break down for DW tanking, but I'd imagine that the STR difference isn't a serious drawback compared to other things (less RS damage for example).

You're not exactly right. You're not wrong either, but not exactly right. The value of off-hand attacks is based on how frequently the tank is being attacked.

Against a slow-attacking mob or a caster (hello2u Kel'Thuzad or dragons) where there will be less dodges and parries, there will obviously be far less RS damgae, thus the OH will be more prominent.

On fights where you are either attacking fast-attack speed/DW bosses or are tanking multiple opponents, you will get more RS chances making it pull ahead of DWing

Another possibility that I haven't seen that I just thought of is making a HB centric build and swapping between DW and 2H depending on the fight. For caster fights you could have a pair of 1Hs with either Rune of Spellbreaking, and another set with Swordbreaking for slow attack fights (or go back to EH to change your runes). For most other fights you'd use 2H with Stoneskin Gargoyle (though may have enough Defense to swap to Sword/Spellshattering).

Originally Posted by JALbert1051634

Also, will it be worth offhanding the +75 stam enchant as compared to a Rune?

I would say no. The 2% from Rune doesn't suffer from diminishing returns. If you want more STA, you can use the 2% as a means to get rid of some avoidance or defense gems.

Zerath · 01/13/09, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kyosujin

As a DW tank, what else do you burn RP on? Is it more efficient than RS? (With the exception of tanking cooldowns) aside from IBF of course. Not trying to be offensive but if we've established that RS can be viable for DW, then it's simply a matter of establishing a rotation that can generate 580 RP in 1 minute.

Rune Strike.
Mind Freeze.
IBF if it isn't talented.
Frost Strike.
Anti-Magic Shell.

These are the most used one's for me (excluding FS since I'm Unholy) - could be forgetting some thing. But, this gets me thinking. HoW will give us...10 or 20rp every 30 seconds? We can macro that in front of IBF so, it's *always* giving us extra RP. Watching IBF cd and stop RS at 55s to ensure 20RP for it.

I love the IBF glyph but there's just too many other one's I want.

Kaziel · 01/13/09, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by Zerath

Rune Strike.
Mind Freeze.
IBF if it isn't talented.
Frost Strike.
Anti-Magic Shell.

These are the most used one's for me (excluding FS since I'm Unholy) - could be forgetting some thing. But, this gets me thinking. HoW will give us...10 or 20rp every 30 seconds? We can macro that in front of IBF so, it's *always* giving us extra RP. Watching IBF cd and stop RS at 55s to ensure 20RP for it.

I love the IBF glyph but there's just too many other one's I want.

Kinda off-topic, but is HoW off the GCD in 3.0.8? If not, then you'd need to press your IBF button tw to do both effects. Not crippling, but in a pinch it could take longer than you would otherwise want.

Kyosujin: I'm at work connecting through my Blackberry. Typing on this is a pain, so I'm waiting to reply until I get home tonight.

Vaken · 01/13/09, 9:39 PM

I've been reading this forum everyday trying to find a good tank build, been very hard though cause my guild leader wants me as OT but still have Imp Icy Talons, but then I want to be able to AoE tank heroics well so its a hard balance, but I've come up with this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

As I'm very new to tanking was hoping if anyone could tell me if this is viable at all, my biggest concern is threat generation.

Exalthia · 01/13/09, 10:15 PM

Kyosujin, the calculation you wrote does not seem to take into account the damage contribution AP has for Rune Strike. At 3k AP, the damage contribution of AP to Rune Strike is:

1H: 2.4 / 14 x AP = 514
2H: 3.4 / 14 x AP = 728

Using the same attack number in your calculation, I believe it should be:

IAB: 22 attacks x (440 + 514) = 20988
SoJ: 15 attacks x (772 + 728) = 22500

Which, to my surprise, actually indicates that the difference between the two is closer than your original calculation.

However there is still another point to this topic: the trigger for Rune Strike. I know that calculation has an assumption that Rune Strike is always up, but I don't think it's valid to make that assumption.

Because it can only be triggered by dodged/parried attack, the assumption that it is always up for every melee swing is, in my opinion, overly optimistic, unless we're on the topic of multi-mob tanking.

Let's say we are tanking a boss with 2s auto attack and a 15s-cooldown extra attack, that means we're looking at 34 attacks per minute. With 60% (dodge+parry**) rate, we're looking at, on average, only 20 Rune Strike a minute, or a Rune Strike every 3s. It will be less with bosses that does more magical damage, but it will be more with faster hitting bosses. Btw also note that IcyTouch/TC/JudgementOfTheJust/<Druid's -20% attack speed debuff, if there is one?> debuff will most likelly be on the boss, so that's ~20% less chance to trigger Rune Strike.

** (remember that they're on DR, so 2.5-4% extra avoidance by dualwielding is also optimistic in my opinion. 2x Last Laugh only give me about ~2% avoidance with my mostly ilvl 200 gear. It will be harsher with mostly ilvl 213 gear)

That means with IAB's hasted attack speed of 2.08s (25% haste), we will -not- see 100% uptime on Rune Strike. On the other hand, most 2handers that I've seen so far has a hasted attack speed of 2.83s (3.4s base, 20% haste), just enough to cover the 3s/RuneStrike window.

This brings up a very interesting point: 2h tanks -need- that 20% haste to scale their Rune Strikes. Beyond that 3s/RuneStrike scenario, haste is not as useful to increase the frequency of Rune Strike, as it will only apply to specific fights. This needs to be taken into consideration when we're discussing the benefit of haste to both type of DK tanks

So.. yes, the difference in Rune Strike damage between 1h and 2h can be made up by hitting it more often, however I don't think it's possible to hit Rune Strikes that much more often with 1h compared to 2h.

Gaffadin · 01/14/09, 12:46 AM

Very interesting thread, read all of this afternoon.

Something I am still mulling over, is there any consensus on what runes to use on your weapons in a DW tanking build?

I strongly suspect that there will be no one-size-fits-all model here, but it will depend on your favoured tanking tree. I intend to try a deep Frost variant and am thinking Razorice on my MH [Infantry Assault Blade] and Swordbreaking on my [Red Sword of Courage].

Any other opinions?

Teme · 01/14/09, 1:28 AM

I'd say use passive runes on slow weapons and proc based runes on fast ones (for obvious reasons). I think cinderglacier is better for personal threat but if there's no DK's that use razorice then you will probably need that.

kurokaze · 01/14/09, 1:53 AM

Hardly obvious reasons. Your logic applies to static percentage procs such as Cinderglacier, but it's actually the other way around for proc-per-minute procs like Fallen Crusader. A 2.6 weapon will attack twice as often as a 1.3 weapon and thus it will have twice the procrate per hit; this applies not only to auto-attacks but also to strikes. Thus, Fallen Crusader procs more often on average with a slow mainhand weapon than a fast one, unless you use no strikes. Its procrate on an offhand of any type will be lower than either, again, unless you use no strikes.

Proc Mechanics

On that note, I'd think Fallen Crusader the optimal threat enchant; it provides comparable or better DPS to Cinderglacier for dual wield (or 2H, for that matter) DPS builds, at least, and unlike Cinderglacier it has nonzero defensive value, adding small amounts of a semi-valuable stat (parry), and decent amounts of a not-that-valuable effect (self-healing), either of which is better than having nothing.

I'm not sure whether Razorice is PPM or static, but in my experience it's pretty much always up unless you stop attacking. If it's PPM, using it on your mainhand is the right move; if it's static, using it on your offhand is. If you need to know, test.

Kaziel · 01/14/09, 5:34 AM

Originally Posted by Kyosujin

Now since many DW builds use Imp Icy Talons: 2.60 / 1.25 = 2.08

IAB: w/ IIT = 29 attacks per min

440 x 29 = 12760

There is a core fault in this statement. While you're correct in saying that many DW builds pick up IIT while many 2H frost tanking builds do not, you're assuming that only a DW build would benefit from the 26% haste bonus (remember, haste is a % based bonus thus stacks multiplicatively... 1.2 x 1.05 = 1.26).

While it's true that not taking IIT will make you lose out on the static 5% haste bonus, the reason most 2H tanking builds say to forgo IIT is not that it's a bad talent, but that it doesn't stack with Windfury totem. Unless you are in a raid with no shaman at all, you're going to end up with at least 16% haste, and I would imagine it to be pretty common in a 25 man raid to have an enhancement shaman along increasing the bonus to 20% haste. And under the unlikely scenario that you find yourself in a 10-man raid with no shaman at all, I would think the expenditure of no more than 100g (I can practically make this in my sleep) to respec into IIT then out of IIT later would more than make up for it since you are simultaneously increasing both your TPS and the DPS of all of your melees.

I think Exalthia's post has the right idea concerning how one should calculate the damage difference on weapons, but he made a simple mistake:

Originally Posted by Exalthia

Kyosujin, the calculation you wrote does not seem to take into account the damage contribution AP has for Rune Strike. At 3k AP, the damage contribution of AP to Rune Strike is:

1H: 2.4 / 14 x AP = 514
2H: 3.4 / 14 x AP = 728

Using the same attack number in your calculation, I believe it should be:

IAB: 22 attacks x (440 + 514) = 20988
SoJ: 15 attacks x (772 + 728) = 22500

Which, to my surprise, actually indicates that the difference between the two is closer than your original calculation.

His numbers look right, but only if you forget that SoJ has a 3.8 attack speed and not a 3.4. (Sorry Exalthia, not trying to be mean, just trying to make sure the proper information is put out =/ )

So remembering this, let's run the numbers for SoJ one more time:

2H: 3.8 / 14 x AP = 814

SoJ: 15 attacks x (772 + 814) = 23,790

Suddenly the difference spreads instead of shrinks. Previous the difference without AP to with shrunk from 1,900 to 1,512, but having the proper speed for the SoJ causes it spread from 1,900 to 2,802. As I predicted the gap only lengthens as you gain more AP.

So now that we've clarified that, we need to contemplate how much of a difference the haste benefit. So using the numbers for IAB with full IIT, you'll have this:

IAB: 29 attacks x (440 + 514) = 27,666

Now, for SoJ we'll give variable numbers, showing everything from a Frost DK with only a untalented WF totem to also having full IIF. Also just for completeness' sake I double checked and the 26% speed boost gives close to the same amount of as 25%.

SoJ w/ untalented WFt: 3.80 / 1.16 = 3.28 | 60 / 3.28 = 18.29 (rounded to 18)
SoJ w/ talented WFt: 3.80 / 1.20 = 3.17 | 60 / 3.17 = 18.93 (rounded to 19)
SoJ w/ IIF: 3.80 / 1.26 = 3.02 | 60 / 3.02 = 19.87 (rounded to 20)

So let's get the total damage done per minute with these new numbers.

SoJ: 18 attacks x (772 + 814) = 28,548
SoJ: 19 attacks x (772 + 814) = 30,134
SoJ: 20 attacks x (772 + 814) = 31,720

Let's see how the differences compare now:

28,548 - 27,666 = 882
30,134 - 27,666 = 2,468
31,720 - 27,666 = 4,054

A DW frost tank can close the gap in the difference when it gets it's hands on IIF if the other tank doesn't have it. But the moment the 2H frost tank picks up IIF it pulls out even further ahead.

=======

Exalthia brought up another good point about frequency of Rune Strike procs. We're giving ourselves a perfect world scenario where every white attack is being turned into a RS.

Originally Posted by Exalthia

So.. yes, the difference in Rune Strike damage between 1h and 2h can be made up by hitting it more often, however I don't think it's possible to hit Rune Strikes that much more often with 1h compared to 2h.

Considering the numbers I presented show that given equal situations between 2H and DWing, the divide between them doesn't shrink but instead grows and Exalthia's (I believe) correct statement that there will be approximately a set number of Rune Strikes per minute, this is an even stronger advantage for 2Hs.

[top]

I'd also just like to clarify that I'm not doing this to get a thrill out of disproving people and making 2Hs the only good way. I'd really, really love for DWing to be equal to 2Hs, but beyond the benefit in terms of avoidance I've mentioned with DWing, my theorycrafted numbers put 2Hs fairly far ahead as far as threat generation goes, and the minor edge in avoidance just doesn't cut it for DWing, save when trying to survive in a casting-heavy fight.

Originally Posted by Vaken

I've been reading this forum everyday trying to find a good tank build, been very hard though cause my guild leader wants me as OT but still have Imp Icy Talons, but then I want to be able to AoE tank heroics well so its a hard balance, but I've come up with this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

As I'm very new to tanking was hoping if anyone could tell me if this is viable at all, my biggest concern is threat generation.

Generally speaking, with a DW build, you don't need to use Blood Boil. This is because you'll be using Howling Blast as your big AOE threat-getter. Because of this, Reaping becomes kinda meh, IMO. Honestly, unless I'm AOE farming and not worrying about longevity I don't even use BB. But if you're doing an AOE fight, you know you're going to use Pestilence no less than than once every 10 seconds to continually spread the diseases amongst targets. Because of this, you know Blood of the North will always help you out.

While my above advice is just what I think and should be taken as advice and not a mandate, what I'm about to tell you is pretty much gospel: Never take Blood-Caked Blade as a tank. BCB works by each swing you make has a chance to proc another swing. More attacks means more chance for parry-hasted attacks. While I've heard that parry-haste isn't as huge a deal as it was in tBC (makes sense since we're no longer the recipients of crushing blows), it's still inviting more incoming damage in exchange for more outgoing damage. Why get that when there are other talents which could give similar bonuses without the potential of more punches to the face?

Illundai · 01/14/09, 10:20 AM

Again, on runeforges & enchants... I think you people take 150 stamina (75 stam on both hands) way too lightly. That's a lot of HP just from enchants. The only alternative I'd use would be Swordshattering. The threat you get from your talents and actual weapon dps. The enchants should (imo) be used for the defensive stats.

I'm just probably gonna have a set of weapons with stamina on them and then another set with Swordshattering on both, in case I need it.

Exalthia · 01/14/09, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kaziel

You're right - I thought Rune Strike is normalized because of the name (a "strike"), that's why I used 2.4 and 3.4. But since it's not instant strike on second thought it's probably not normalized.

Actually, IAB is also 2.6 attack speed while my original calculation used 2.4, so we had to re-do it for IAB too and recalculate the gap again.

After redoing it the gap shrinks again - but the frequency factor stays. 1Hander will not likely reach the needed frequency to output equal Rune Strike damage compared to 2Handers. So, with regards to Rune Strike, I believe it is advantage 2Handers.