Just a random thought, do you really value 5% haste that much as to spend 6 points to get it?
No, sometimes I drop it if I know someone else will be providing the haste buff. But often in 10 mans there won't be a second Shaman or Frost DK. It's a fine idea to put those points into Rime, Chill of the Grave and/or Merciless Combat if you're sure you won't get any value out of providing group haste.
Well, seems we agree that the 5% haste is not optimal, I'm pretty much guaranteed an Enhance shaman or IIT DK, so I have no need to pick that up.
I've been messing around a bit with your spec and I just can't wrap my head around why you BS even in your single target rotation? BB will hit for more with a onehander I'm sure. You can be certain it will if you mess around a bit with your talent allocation, f.ex:
Then again, it might very well be that BB will only hit for a small amount more than BS with a slow weapon like Broken Promise and thus the 3 talent points in Outbreak are better spent elsewhere.
Well, seems we agree that the 5% haste is not optimal, I'm pretty much guaranteed an Enhance shaman or IIT DK, so I have no need to pick that up.
I've been messing around a bit with your spec and I just can't wrap my head around why you BS even in your single target rotation? BB will hit for more with a onehander I'm sure. You can be certain it will if you mess around a bit with your talent allocation, f.ex:
Then again, it might very well be that BB will only hit for a small amount more than BS with a slow weapon like Broken Promise and thus the 3 talent points in Outbreak are better spent elsewhere.
Last time I checked, BB doesn't hit as hard as BS (unless, maybe, you're already spec'd into Outbreak). I could be mistaken about this but it's easy to check. Just whack a training dummy for a bit or try it out next raid. Either way it doesn't change the rotation.
If you want to go up to 27-28 in Unholy (dropping Unbreakable Armor) I think you're better off taking Reaping to replace every other BS/BB with an extra IT. Either way, BS/BB and PS combined are only going to represent around 3-5% of your threat, so talenting into Outbreak doesn't seem worth dropping a very nice mitigation timer. If you really don't mind losing UA, I think Dark Conviction in the Blood tree would be the next place to go for threat. Summon Gargoyle or Master of Ghouls are also options for increasing your DPS (but not TPS). I wouldn't want to use Gargoyle without having Blessing of Sanctuary though.
Edit: Unbuffed I'm Blood Striking for ~650 and Blood Boiling for ~300, without Outbreak. I'm not sure if they scale differently with buffs though. I'll try next raid.
Yeah Blood Boil is a spell so it's affected by more raidbuffs, but it could be that it just doesn't come out on top but as far as I'm aware DW DPS builds generally use BB over BS though.
Keep in mind how good Unbreakable Armor will be in 3.1...
Damage absorption based on Armor? Woot for 3d Sarth with 10/36/25.'
Originally Posted by Ramalama
Yup! I plugged some more parses and commentary into my earlier post.
I don't know if you looked at my TPS parse, but I was using BP and noted earlier that our TPS reports looked much different (with Rune Strike coming out on top with BP in MH vs. HB on top with LL in MH). I figured it wouldn't matter as much for this spec since the only thing based on weapon damage was BS and RS, but apparently it rules.
Etain, what do you think about Swordbreaking vs. Fallen Crusader for MH? Fallen Crusader is actually up a LOT, but I am trying to decide if I should grab the extra parry rating since my avoidance stats could use a boost...
Last edited by Jeisa : 02/20/09 at 8:08 PM.
Reason: Pondering on Fallen Crusader vs. Swordbreaking...?
I don't know if you looked at my TPS parse, but I was using BP and noted earlier that our TPS reports looked much different (with Rune Strike coming out on top with BP in MH vs. HB on top with LL in MH). I figured it wouldn't matter as much for this spec since the only thing based on weapon damage was BS and RS, but apparently it rules.
Right. You basically want to convert as much of your MH white damage into Rune Strikes as possible (to benefit from the threat multiplier) while also minimizing missed Rune Strike opportunities. So there ought to be a sweet spot for swing speed that's not too fast and not too slow. Calculating exactly what that is would be difficult and depends on the boss' swing speed. But a good rule of thumb for a MH is just 'the slower the better', as I don't think it's possible for a 1H to be too slow for Rune Strike purposes.
Originally Posted by Jeisa
Etain, what do you think about Swordbreaking vs. Fallen Crusader for MH? Fallen Crusader is actually up a LOT, but I am trying to decide if I should grab the extra parry rating since my avoidance stats could use a boost...
For a buffed tank, the RotFC proc should give ~500 str or ~1000 AP. Multiply that by the uptime and convert it to an average str increase. Then you can compare it to 2% parry. Since Swordbreaking is unaffected by diminishing returns, it's probably worth around 100 dodge rating or around 130 parry rating, depending on gear level.
Then use whatever personal evaluation you have to compare X amount of dodge rating versus Y amount of str and you can determine if it's worth the tradeoff. It's really hard to give recommendations for threat versus avoidance/mitigation, because it really comes down to personal preference.
Yeah Blood Boil is a spell so it's affected by more raidbuffs, but it could be that it just doesn't come out on top but as far as I'm aware DW DPS builds generally use BB over BS though.
No DK spells or abilities scale with spell power, so including totem of wrath under BB is a bit odd. Of course, both BB and BS get the 3% crit from totem of wrath/heart of the crusader/master poisoner, so if that's what you're talking about, including it in the list is a bit misleading as it applies to both equally. BB gains 10% more crit from buffs, 3% to hit, and a flat 13% damage bonus while BS benefits from higher base crit and suffers greatly in the absence of sunders/FF. As for their AP benefits, I'm not certain of BB's exact scaling mechanics so I don't want to attempt a muddled comparison of how the two scale with +10% AP. In any case, I don't see the loss of UA worth it, especially since UA also grants a tps increase via its temporary strength.
You mentioned that some dual-wielding DKs replace BS with BB. The reason is that BB benefits from shorter GCD with spell haste, lowering the amount of haste needed to fit an extra GCD into a ten second rotation (or is simply a faster cast when using priority system), and that the damage increase from gaining an additional death coil outweighs the loss from going from blood strike to blood boil.
I'm well aware that none of our abilities scale with spell power, I just forgot to include the 3% crit on the BS list. I still think BB will outperform BS in a raid setting due to the added crit it gets. But that's just me :P.
well .. got broken promise this week, and in fights where i cant spam RS (caster, slow hitting boss), was better than fast/fast .. and honestly .. i went back to my deep frost build. IT / HB spam is much more fun than tossing DnD and waiting centuries to do something again (personal preference, not saying its worst)
usually im doing 5-6k tps with 7k spikes in 25man, thats more than enough to hold against 4-5k dpsers (no, im not in a dream team guild).
while the "hybrid" build deals more tps than mine, i was missing the OP survivability, deep frost + huge avoidance provides.
cant wait to see what 3.1 will bring to frost tree.
Just ran with the hybred build instead of a deep frost build. When the WWS is posted I'll check numbers, but I am really confused about those who've said they noticed a huge threat gain. I saw no huge threat gain, I stayed about the same (5-6k tps according to Omen, again I only run 10-man. No 25-man gear or buffs.) as I did with the previous build I posted.
The hybrid rotation seems really poor, imho. Using a deep-frost build you can just float an Unholy Rune to be ready to HB as soon as it's off CD. Saving runes for a D&D not only seriously impacts Runic Power generation, but it also limits the usefulness of Killing Machine. I was much more satisfied with the behavior of Frost Strike (using a slow MH) than I am with Death Coil.
I may change my tune after the numbers are posted, because I ran w/o BoSanc this week and still maintained similar TPS, but I feel like I fluctuated in threat generation.
Just ran with the hybred build instead of a deep frost build. When the WWS is posted I'll check numbers, but I am really confused about those who've said they noticed a huge threat gain. I saw no huge threat gain, I stayed about the same (5-6k tps according to Omen, again I only run 10-man. No 25-man gear or buffs.) as I did with the previous build I posted.
The hybrid rotation seems really poor, imho. Using a deep-frost build you can just float an Unholy Rune to be ready to HB as soon as it's off CD. Saving runes for a D&D not only seriously impacts Runic Power generation, but it also limits the usefulness of Killing Machine. I was much more satisfied with the behavior of Frost Strike (using a slow MH) than I am with Death Coil.
I may change my tune after the numbers are posted, because I ran w/o BoSanc this week and still maintained similar TPS, but I feel like I fluctuated in threat generation.
same opinion as me.
when i tested the hybrid build, i did the same rotation (the tps gains, they were not incredibly high, but were noticeble) as i do in my frost build: IT and HB spam. I believe the "TPS gain" in the same rotation, is due to the fact that you boost your overall spell dmg with impurity, instead of just the "spike crit" from IT/HB. Another factor is that, with impurity, DC hits for around the same amount as FS, but it wont eat your KM procs, saving them for IT/HB, where they benefit more.
I just cant use Dnd in my rotation, i find it extremelly boring .. and since i'm not in a cutting edge guild, my tps is more than enough, and people love my survivability as deep frost. Both are viable imo, but with different strenghts.
If you can still get KM and HB in 3.0.1 along with unholy blight, that might be interesting .. i really want to see what 3.0.1 will bring.
Well actually, on the KM procs I found that I was holding onto them for a full rune cycle in some cases, because I needed to drop D&D (I hate D&D in a standard rotation, esp on fights with odd floors like Maxxena). Holding on to runes for D&D more than 6 seconds means you are theoretically missing an additional KM proc. This isn't the case in practice, but I'd guess that using D&D probably kills about 15-20% of KM procs.
It will be interesting to see how the builds scale with gear.
Well actually, on the KM procs I found that I was holding onto them for a full rune cycle in some cases, because I needed to drop D&D (I hate D&D in a standard rotation, esp on fights with odd floors like Maxxena). Holding on to runes for D&D more than 6 seconds means you are theoretically missing an additional KM proc. This isn't the case in practice, but I'd guess that using D&D probably kills about 15-20% of KM procs.
It will be interesting to see how the builds scale with gear.
If KM procs and I have the option to go DnD or HB, I always pick HB and just let my diseases fall off for a few seconds.
Its not a big deal--you can be flexible and make the spec work for you.
I'm not trying to "make the spec work for me" I'm trying to figure out if the spec is actually better than deep frost. So far the only apples-to-apples comparison done with the hybrid spec was done against a 2H spec. I am consistently generating > 5k tps using deep frost, with only 10-man gear and buffs. If my TPS only increases by ~1k through another tier of raiding, using a deep frost build, there are problems. This is why I'd really like to see some numbers on deep frost vs hybrid with the same raid composition and gear. The hybrid build does not stack up to deep frost for 10-man raiding in survivability, threat generation, or consistency. If I free up some more time in my week and jump in a 25-man raid, than I'll do the testing myself.
I'm not trying to "make the spec work for me" I'm trying to figure out if the spec is actually better than deep frost. So far the only apples-to-apples comparison done with the hybrid spec was done against a 2H spec. I am consistently generating > 5k tps using deep frost, with only 10-man gear and buffs. If my TPS only increases by ~1k through another tier of raiding, using a deep frost build, there are problems. This is why I'd really like to see some numbers on deep frost vs hybrid with the same raid composition and gear. The hybrid build does not stack up to deep frost for 10-man raiding in survivability, threat generation, or consistency. If I free up some more time in my week and jump in a 25-man raid, than I'll do the testing myself.
Im curious to see what spec you are running? I can't link to your armory from your profile.
Lichborne, IBF, and UA are all included in the Hybrid build. The only additional mitigation you would get from deep frost is a longer IBF... The Hybrid build picks up ALL the tanking talents (and if you've been browsing the forums here, you'd know how excellent all those talents are). Quick DnDs are another highlight, stronger HB/ITs, and just less buttons to push (I personally hate Frost Strike) are other things I like about the 10/36/25 spec.
What is keeping you deep frost? Just so you know, I used to be deep Unholy, and swore by it... I finally converted to this spec but it took time and practice and seeing how powerful and "fun" it is (I love the massive crits in AoE packs). The extra Threat potential and the ability to take all the talents was just icing on the cake.
• Black Ice: Frost Damage bonus lowered to 4/8/12/16/20%
• Blood of the North: Now also increases damage dealt by Frost Strike by 15%.
• Frost Aura: Replaced with Improved Frost Presence. Allows the death knight to keep the health bonus of Frost Presence in any presence, and decreases magic damage taken while in Frost Presence.
• Howling Blast: Swapped positions with Hungering Cold in the talent tree, and damage bonus to targets afflicted by Frost Fever reduced from 100% to 50%.
• Glacier Rot: Diseased enemies take 7/13/20% more damage from your Icy Touch, Howling Blast and Frost Strike.
Threat affecting changes:
- Blood of the North: increases FS damage by 15%
- Black Ice nerf (was: 30%, will be: 20%)
- HB nerf (was: 100% damage bonus, will be: 50% damage bonus)
- Glacier Rot buff (was: 10%, will be: 20%)
HB damage formula (against deseased targets, no crit, including 10% bonus from Tundra Stalker):
a) Patch 3.1: Avg_Dmg = [(259+281)/2 + (AP * 0.1)] * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.5 * 1.1
b) Live: Avg_Dmg = [(259+281)/2 + (AP * 0.1)] * 1.1 * 1.3 * 2.0 * 1.1
they nerfed several dw talents (bcb with inner cooldown and necrosis with MH procs only) .. and its not possible to get HB and still being able to get other talents deep in unholy ..
meh, i really DONT like those changes, the tree is now just to weird ..
@Jesia: My spec and some numbers are a page or two back, before we started talking about hybrid. The increased time on IBF (depending on what trinkets you want) can let you stay in cooldowns most of the time. The consistency of the frost damage abilities, combined with the ability to IT-spam really made for a consistent (if a bit lower) threat engine. There are always active threat abilities being performed. I realize that D&D takes the place of some of that, I just found that on fights like Grobbulus, Grand-Widow, anything which requires movement, all of the sudden those "dead spots" in the hybrid rotation started to show up on Omen.
The changes are slightly disappointing. It seems like they may have over-nerfed Howling Blast, and added some strange things. For example: Why does it matter that Howling Blast now causes FF? With a frost spec, you are going to want to cast IT at every opportunity, for damage and Rime. That graph from Torn is very depressing, to say the least.
Wanted to check out Scourge Strike... and it deals half the damage of HB.
I'll run some more tests tomorrow, will screenshot some recount screens, any other build suggested for more threat?
edit:
I'll try http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9626 tomorrow for a simple IT PS BS BS IT PS DC DC rotation and see how it fares, might be dumb as hell to play but still... I'd justify it by pumping PS damage through Glyph/Outbreak and Icy Touch with all those talents spread over Frost and Impurity. I'd have to roll with Razorice on my mainhand for added threat, while keeping the parry one on the offhand.
I'm also not sure how would BCB compare to Ravenous Dead in order to reach Impurity, nor even if Impurity is any worth any longer.
I know that Blood Boil has received a damage boost, but has it gotten any sort of scaling boost to go along with it? If so, it seems like getting Bloody Strikes, Lichborne, and Bone Shield might be a workable build by building up deathrunes for a 6xBB -> UB rotation. So basically, something like this.
Sure, it lacks the sexiness of Howling Blast, but I don't think any DK is going to see the numbers we see now after 3.1 hits. It might, however, allow us to be competitive...if BB scales decently.
one ive come up with so far, just sort of trying to throw talents together though again it would seem that basing ANY spec around a strike is a nono in DW vs 2H... Im hoping they add either a DW strike or a talent that adds an offhand portion to strikes soon.
02/20/09, 5:43 PM
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