DW Tanking Builds 3.3 - updated 12/01/10 - Page 12

Harmann · 01/14/09, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Exalthia

You're right - I thought Rune Strike is normalized because of the name (a "strike"), that's why I used 2.4 and 3.4. But since it's not instant strike on second thought it's probably not normalized.

Actually, IAB is also 2.6 attack speed while my original calculation used 2.4, so we had to re-do it for IAB too and recalculate the gap again.

After redoing it the gap shrinks again - but the frequency factor stays. 1Hander will not likely reach the needed frequency to output equal Rune Strike damage compared to 2Handers. So, with regards to Rune Strike, I believe it is advantage 2Handers.

Yeah, you simply aren't going to be Parrying/Dodging attacks every 2s to keep a high Rune Strike frequency up. The slower you weapon, the more likelihood that every single swing is a Rune Strike and the less it costs you per minute to make it so.

2H have a very big advantage with Rune Strike cause of that.

Kyosujin · 01/14/09, 4:20 PM

I apologize for the delay gentlemen, work has been keeping me busy.

Initially I wanted from a weapons only standpoint with IIT thrown in because it is a valued talent for DW and although is possible you see it less in 2H builds for the following reasons:

FS is a better expenditure than RS for 2H because it is weapon based and all damage is converted to frost damage.
The initial math was intended as a baseline formula to determine if RS was viable for DW and unless someone disputes that now it seems that it is comparable, which was the sole intent of that particular math.

Now I left out several factors as you guys have pointed out but since the discussion is evolving that way (much to the benefit of all DK tanks DW or 2H) I am going to list several variables that I believe would have an impact on the discussion.

now I agree that the instant a 2H tank gains haste then the equalization is gone. But follow along with me for a moment:

I use baseline concepts because those are the easiest to understand without a vast explanation:

It was mentioned previously that it is unlikely that a Boss would have a 2 second swing rotation. This may be possible but I believe we are missing one piece of the puzzle.

Parry - Haste.

Its been touted on this forum that parry-haste is/was/could be the primary downfall of DW as a tanking option. But consider this: Since we've established a concept upon which DW RS could work; the only problem now is establlishing if such an environment could be found currently ingame.

Requirements:

1. 580 RP generation per minute.
2. Tank avoiding 26-29 attacks per minute.
3. Boss swinging on average of once every 2 seconds.

Resolutions to the above:

1. Glyph IT and Chill of the Grave boost RP generation to 25 (IT) and 20(HB) respectively this along with RP cost reducing abilities make the above possible.
2. Tank avoiding 26-29 attacks per minutes. As you gear up this avoidance is not uncommon or unexpected.
3. Considering the following:

DW causes more parry haste than 2H.
RS is immune to the above due to the inherent nature of the ability.

With the above considered true, can we say that when RS is up, the Boss will attack less and when RS is down the Boss will attack more?
And due to the nature of DW and RS that the Boss will always be attacking slightly faster because of offhand attacks?

If all of the above is true, then it is quite possible that DW RS will be comparable to 2H RS.

the concept behind the build I use : (10/36/25) is that by using spellike abilities for runes and RS for melee attacks you negate the demand for high expertise (which is of course the highly touted problem with DW) and you harness the system to your benefit. It is a doubled sided blade of course; if your avoidance is not up to par then you will continue to take hits until you do. But if your avoidance is; then you could/will be generating more RS procs than a 2H, at least in theory.

Zerath · 01/14/09, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Illundai

Again, on runeforges & enchants... I think you people take 150 stamina (75 stam on both hands) way too lightly. That's a lot of HP just from enchants. The only alternative I'd use would be Swordshattering. The threat you get from your talents and actual weapon dps. The enchants should (imo) be used for the defensive stats.

I'm just probably gonna have a set of weapons with stamina on them and then another set with Swordshattering on both, in case I need it.

I'm in complete agreement. Unless using Cinderglacier + Fallen Crusader produces a massive amount of increased TPS - avoidance should be our concern in order to RS more.

DdarkDdemon · 01/15/09, 9:05 AM

75 stamina weapon enchant nerfed to 50 stamina on PTR:

Enchant Weapon - Titanguard Permanently enchant a melee weapon to increase Stamina by 50. (Down from 75)

Sure 1.1k hp without any +stam talents is a nice thing, but I strongly disagree when you say it's more powerful than 4% undiminished avoidance.

Calbrenar · 01/15/09, 10:36 AM

oops saw tanking builds not DW tanking builds -- disregard

Désespoir · 01/15/09, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Kyosujin

Requirements:

1. 580 RP generation per minute.
2. Tank avoiding 26-29 attacks per minute.
3. Boss swinging on average of once every 2 seconds.

Don't forget that misses of the boss don't proc RS I didn't do the maths but I think it means that the boss should be hitting faster than 1 swing/2s (AFTER having its hit speed reduced by 20%).

It means that except for a Patchwerk/Brutallus ultra fast hitting machine, you won't be able to convert all your strikes into RS.

Illundai · 01/16/09, 2:57 AM

Originally Posted by DdarkDdemon

75 stamina weapon enchant nerfed to 50 stamina on PTR:

Enchant Weapon - Titanguard Permanently enchant a melee weapon to increase Stamina by 50. (Down from 75)

Sure 1.1k hp without any +stam talents is a nice thing, but I strongly disagree when you say it's more powerful than 4% undiminished avoidance.

Seems like the enchant got completely removed now, so that point is gone. HB back to CD is a big bummer for DW tanking builds too... Not too sure threat is gonna be ok now.

Durzil · 01/16/09, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by Illundai

Seems like the enchant got completely removed now, so that point is gone. HB back to CD is a big bummer for DW tanking builds too... Not too sure threat is gonna be ok now.

5 second cd added seems okay because it was a bit op for dps. You can only really do 2 HB's per 10 second rune cycle anyways, unless you have a bunch of death runes built up.
They want to make it so you can't just spam it but it's still viable to use in a tanking rotation.

Zerath · 01/16/09, 8:13 AM

Originally Posted by Durzil

5 second cd added seems okay because it was a bit op for dps. You can only really do 2 HB's per 10 second rune cycle anyways, unless you have a bunch of death runes built up.
They want to make it so you can't just spam it but it's still viable to use in a tanking rotation.

Then they can simply move the talent to make it out of reach for DW DPSers taking 0/32/39 spec. Make it our 51 pt talent and swap Hungercold with it. It's not a DPS talent by any means.

This weekend I'll be re-thinking what I'll be doing for patch with this news of a 5s CD on HB. It's skewed all my thinking and gear bidding/gathering over the past 2+ weeks. /sigh

*Edit*

There's a spriest in our raid that can hit 6-7k DPS on trash packs already. A mage that pushes 5-6k and he's normally just screwing around. So, I highly doubt Blizz is really too upset about trash mobs. (Even though that's what they said.)

Torn · 01/16/09, 1:17 PM

I still don't understand how you can design a talent like Rime and then put Howling Blast on cooldown. It totally destroys any kind of "fluid" rotation since a "rimed" HB generates only 5 RP. Most DW DK I know create macros that cancel the Freezing Fog aura just not to mess up with their rotation.

If they're SO worried about AoE damage, they could make Howling Blast single target and make Frost 51 talent that adds the AoE damage part to Howling Blast. DW tanks would spec it, DW damage dealers wouldn't.
(Yes, I herby propose that single target HB should be trainable and not a talent.)

FACT: DW talent builds need a two rune attack that doesn't scale with weapon damage.
FACT: HB is a two rune attack that scales with attack power but does not rely on weapon damage.

zacrich · 01/16/09, 3:03 PM

I'm amazed that they even considered removing the cooldown from HB, and it just goes to show they don't really think about the impact of these changes. It would be all of a couple of days before everyone was going through the routine of:

1) Build 2 death runes
2) HB x 3
3) ERW
4) HB x 2

It's simply _too_much_burst_aoe_, even if the last 2 HB's are limited by the cooldown on ERW.

blacksting · 01/18/09, 3:01 AM

3 points in Morbidity and 2 points in Necrosis or 5 points in Bladed Armor?
for DW frost tanking
how does the threat scale per attack/per Howling Blast

Torn · 01/18/09, 7:19 AM

Bladed Armor definitely. It's free attack power and it's a lot considerung the Frost Presence armor multiplier.

m0nkehh · 01/20/09, 3:45 AM

Hey, new to forums but been looking around

Here is my current build, any suggestions? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ((10/54/7))

pdpi · 01/20/09, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by m0nkehh

Hey, new to forums but been looking around

Here is my current build, any suggestions? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ((10/54/7))

Frost aura doesn't stack with MotW or (afaik) with paladin resistance auras or shaman totems, which makes it kind of weak. Also, Deathchill's guaranteed crit is of limited use in a tanking context. Unholy command is also a bit weak as a tanking talent, since you have a short cooldown taunt as well, and the pulling effect isn't needed that often.

I'd suggest putting those talents elsewhere: Epidemic, Rune Tap and Merciless Combat come to mind. DKs have threat problems atm, from what I can tell, so boosting it in any way you can is a plus.

(I also suggest you read this and, in particular, this before you rake in any further infractions).