I was wondering if its possible to slip in Improved Icy Talons with a dual wield tank build? I run a group with friends that has no melee haster and was hoping this was possible. Forgive the ignorance, but I'm still learning DK tanking.

Not unless you're willing to drop Black Ice, plus another floating point. Frankly I'd not suggest this, as a tank's job is to tank, not to provide raidbuffs, but if you find you can survive the 10% spell dmage hit, by all means.

The main reason I'd advise against it would be the passive speed increase you'd incur to yourself: IIT includes a further 5% haste above and beyond what you'd get with the normal Windfurry Wotem, and that's more parry-haste that you (strictly) should gear-out with even more expertise.

In general I'd say "no" on principle, but I suppose you could if threat isn't an issue (and it shouldn't be, the 10% from black ice will be less than a 8.5% threat drop, and you'll partially make threat up by more white attacks.

I recently tried DW frost tanking at last, after toying with the idea for a long long time (I've always loved the frost tree, you see), and I must say, I'm pleasantly surprised!

I'm rolling with an 12/52/7 build (sometimes with 4/5 KM & HC + HC glyph for various reasons; 5/5 KM & Icy Touch glyph otherwise), and so far it's great. Tanked all of TotGC25 as DW frost (add duty on Anub25 <3) - good threat, good survival, fun playstyle.

Currently using a DPS MH & Burnished Quel'Serrar, going to switch to Relentless T1 MH & BQS on wednesday, at least for my survival kit.

Loving it so far. Not quite sure whether I'll go with dual carapace runes in 3.3, or carapace + swordbreaking / fc.

Well i'm using the same talent, glyphs and rotation as in the first post but somehow my aggro generation is jumping constantly beetwen 3000 and 5000. What am I doing wrong? I always for for the killing machine proc when rime is on, and watch for the diseases to be all time, but still a lock can easily pull aggro from my when i don't get any md's. I am not in a hc raiding guild and my gear is enough to tank toc25, the only problem is the aggro. So I would be very thankful for any help i could get based on this.

Get slow weapons. Fast weapons will produce very low threat.

Also, get rid of the hit gems, you'll be fine with a lot lower hit, and you'll need to gem some more defense when you change weapons.

With the patch coming soon and looking at the 2pc set bonus for t10 tanking would you suggest changing a few points around to get reduced CD on DnD? A build I was thinking of is something like this: 9/52/10

If you have a resto druid healing you there probably won't be much of an issue with gaining runic power however I'd like to see what some of you others may have to say about this.

Points can always be switched around to give the runic power if needed. I just feel like if they're putting that set bonus on there then there's a need to have DnD used often if not in the rotation alone.

So with all the DW talking of tanking I thought I'd share my thoughts since I was DW tanking back in nax25 days, tons of fun and tough to do. First thing of course, macro Rune Strike to every ability in your rotation and you will almost never need to worry about aggro. Also to answer the above question SoB is amazing for rp generating with DW.

I'm taking DW tanking to not just be able to tank a boss's physical dmg, but more importantly the magic dmg that bosses will be dishing out. So consider this the DW DK Magic Tank:

Here's my spec: 18/51/2

With a rotation of IT-PS-BS-BS-OB-FS rinse, repeat and if BoN procs (b/c I chose to put 1 pt into it just for a filler) then an extra OB. Time KB with HB if possible. And as for all DK tanks, always keep your Blade Barrier proc up. Time Rune Tap for Unbreakable Armor.

Anyways reasons for this build:

Strengths:

High aggro, you will be seeing crits quite often with this build, especially when GoRS is used which I think all good tanks should be using

High survivability both phys and magic especially (the dodge debuff that all tanks will suffer in ICC makes parry much more attractive and makes abilities like Avoidance much less attractive since you'll only receive 1/2 the normal benefits).

The 1 CD that all DK tanks need to use, Icebound Fort, gains another 6secs from Guile of Gorefiend.

IFP a must have ability so FP will now give you 10% dmg red.

I focus on Spell Deflection and Acclamation to be essentially a go to offtank or MT.

Unbreakable Armor is nice to have and pretty essential if ur getting hit too hard.

Hungering Cold is good for bad trash pulls or when little adds get a bit too heavy like Anubs little scarabs or the Gothik fight from old Naxx.

Duel Rune of Swordbreaking is really helpful for avoidance and will be amazing come ICC when parry > dodge

FS damage does not rely on having both diseases up rather just 1, with Glacier Rot, so letting 1 of ur diseases fall off isn't too much trouble

Also GoRS really helps maintain RS crits b/c raid buffed and all, you should be getting around 20% RS crits, not the greatest but helps a lot

Finally: probably one of the most unique builds out there that has proven for me to work quite well. The magic resistance is awesome and with GoAMS you can pop AMS for dragon breaths, Anub leech swarm etc and take in the benefits from acclamation.


Weaknesses:

Health pools come into play big time with DKs as always b/c if we don't go Veteran of the Third War we sit with very little base health. (In fact even with VotTW DKs are still aweful in health pools)

Finding Slow/Slow Tanking wpns, basically I wouldn't suggest this spec unless you had a slow 1hander which I was fortunate to get on a 25ony run. The end goal for me is to have the 245 and 232 version of Quel'Serrar since the procs should stack and they both swing at 2sec as opposed to 1.6s.

Magic Defense somewhat erratic since Spell Deflection goes off parry % it's never 100% and acclamation has to build up to have a good effect (the idea of using acclamation is assuming ICC will have fights always dealing magic dmg like Sapphiron and Twins so it'll hit 3 stacks quickly)

Lack of DnD and Epidemic make disease refreshing a pain. Also 2t10 gives a DnD buff to tanking which wouldn't be using often in this spec other than initial pulls and for add down times.

Lack of Expertise cap in the build, I'm short 2expertise in this build which hurts and there's no way around it unless you wanna sacrifice HB.

Getting Dcapped without the 1h enchantments at this point is difficult. (I managed to do it sadly had to socket and enchant a few +d rating items)


Conclusion:

I personally love it as a DW tank spec. I think magic resistances is highly underrated at this point and will be very valuable for ICC encounters. I need a lot more hits, say 2-3k more but that's a gearing issue and not as much a spec issue at this point.

I'm looking for thoughts and feedbacks on this to see what people think. Also I understand that this build actually does rely on slow/slow wpns which means you NEED Quel'Serrar of some lvl and if you can get ur hands on both the 245 and 232 version of the wpn then ur looking at really sexy defense/armor buffs. Also, getting ur hands on the Ony tanking ring 10/25 either version would just make you an even sexier magic tank.

My only feedback would be that I don't think you'll *need* two tanking weapons. In fact, I think threat will be better with 2 2.6 speed DPS weapons and the new Def glyph. This sounds silly at first, given the fact that there are options as far as 1h tank weapons go, but at the end of the day it's not much difference that using a 2her without tanking stats (save the glyph), which is what blood and unholy do. Avoidance will be better with two tanking weapons, so it'd be nice to have them handy, but I'd keep my focus on some nice DPS 1hers.

A couple questions... the is about Quel'Serrar. I notice you said you'd use the 232 and the 245... I was under the impression that they couldn't be used together, much the same as having 2 of the same ilevel. Am I wrong?

Second question is a bit off-topic from your post, but on-topic as far as DW tanking goes. I've looked and can't this anywhere. Basically, I had a guildie tell me that he would use fast tanking weapons in favor of slow DPS weapons because there was a cap on rune strike's threat, making it useless to use a slow weapon. Now I was under the opposite impression... slow weapon = harder strikes (rune strike included) and less parrygibs. I know I'm right on parrygibs, but I'm curious as to where this guildie got the impression that rune strike capped out? While I like to consider myself fairly informed about my class, I'm not too well versed in DW, and this guildie happens to be one of the few people I know who really knows his stuff. So can anyone shed any light on this?

I've never heard about anything capping RS. Your guildmate is talking bullshit. Why do you think we're burning Runestrike like mad with 3.6 two-handed weapons when a slow one-hand is, supposedly, enough to cap it? Utter nonsense. RS generates agro as a factor of it's damage.

There was some research done regarding DW parrygib. It concluded that you'd get the same amount of parryhaste over time when dualweilding two fast one-handers with 31 expertise as you would when weilding a slow 2h with 26 expertise. This, however, is only relevant to the bosses who do gain parryhaste, which is by a long shot not many. It is likely to be more prevalent on ICC, however. Do not forget, however, that two tanking weapons are likely to be worth circa 2% evasion compared to a 2h, which will partially offset the penalty.

Threat generation of DW specs is a major concern. I can't comment on it much as I haven't tanked anything serious with DW Frost, but I have noticed several well-progressed tanks may select a slow DPS mainhand and a tanking offhand. One of the optimal choices is a Relentless MH, as it combines excellent front-load damage with exceptionally high stamina. I'd suggest aiming for Quel'Serrar, as it's a conveniently slow 2.0 speed. I also recall reading that dualweilding Quel is absolutely doable, and the buffs are separate and stack, though I do not recall the source, so I'd like confirmation too.

Remember: As tanks, we have very little in the way of DPS stats, so swaping even one item (in this case the weapon) to a DPS item gives a signifficant jump in damage-based TPS

The two versions of the QS proc do not stack, but both weapons can be equipped at the same time. The proc from the 245 will overwrite the 232 version, but it seems (warning: anecdotal) that a proc of the 232 version will refresh the 245 buff back to 10 seconds.

They are 2 different spell ID's from 2 Different Items, similar to Deaths verdict stacking normal and heroic versions, I see no basis to how you came to the conclusion that they do not stack other than anecdotal thought.

Having them both up seems impossible on the face of your data. However, your anecdote suggests that they do not share CDs, meaning that having both would mean a much higher uptime (of either proc, that is). That is assuming the weapons had an internal CD, and not a PPM mechanic to begin with.

Regarding Quel'Serrar, there is no internal cooldown on the buff. I can't confirm or refute tjn's observations regarding buff stacking/overwriting, since I've only got the 245. A few other things I *can* add, though:

In real-world (raiding) use, the Quel'Serrar buff is up about 40% of the time I'm in combat. Some of that time is spent moving around, waiting for things to happen, etc., so its useful uptime is probably more like 45%. Adding a second QS to the mix should therefore bring useful uptime to about 70% (that's 1-(1-.45)*(1-.45)). Unlike a stats-based weapon, its proc-based nature gives decreased usefulness to a second one.

In terms of threat, the difference between dual-wielding Crusader's Glory (a level 232 one-hander with a 1.5s swing speed) and using one Crusader's Glory in the offhand and a level 245 QS (with its 2.0s swing speed) in the main hand is about 4%. This difference decreases as your attack power goes up - I'm geared for ToGC-10 or ToC-25 but not ToGC-25, so there's a rough point of comparison. I've also never had problems with threat; I tend to PuG raids, but some of those PuGs do have DPS that crack 7K single-target, and I'm still well ahead of them once I get a few Rune Strikes.

Let's extrapolate from the increase I saw going from CG to QS, using a pure DPS weapon in your main hand with a 2.7s swing speed of the same item level as a tanking weapon with a 1.5s swing speed. Not counting the threat stats on a DPS weapon vs. a tanking weapon, just from the raw damage increase alone, you'd probably see a 7% increase in overall threat. I carry DPS weapons just in case I run into a situation where I need them, but I have never needed them. If your raid would benefit from you putting out 7% more threat, swap in a DPS mainhand. If that's still not enough, swap in a DPS offhand, for I guess another 3-4% increase. I do like Quel'Serrar as a good compromise mainhand (and I take slightly less damage wielding it than I do dual-wielding Crusader's Glory).

well im tanking with 2 slow dps weapons and so far its good enough, i just lose like 1000 hp from the lost of stamina wheni was 2 handed but my threat is a lot better
my spec is 10/54/7

This may be a nub question to ask and I apologize if it is,.. I get very excited when I read postings like this all about dual wielding becasue I like the prospect of it, just feels more fun. But I am very apprehensive about it when I get remarks like I did the other night.. After the 3.3 patch hit I decided to try DW tanking and I was having fun with it, not much problem at all but someone made the comment that it's a death sentence in a raid due to the boss's chances to parry/riposte and haste what not being doubled and therefore you taking twice the damage,.. what accuracy is there in this statement and is DW tanking just thought of as taboo in th past and it's really become a viable option now?

On another subject I've loved all the extra help I've read about in here for tanking with my DK but I had coupel quick other questions.. First,.. the best tier combination,.. I like the RS bonus from 8.5 but the set bonus from 9 doesn't look nearly as nice.. best combination of tier gear? short of tier 10 ... Also my typical rotation tanking right now is to run in lay down a DnD, hit HB and Blood boil every chance I get and otherwise spam Obliterate on my current target and hit RS every time it's up.. After reading your posts I think I may be revisiting my rotations and macroing RS to my keys and wondered the best rotation for tanking AOE as well as single target,..

Thanks in advance and I know this goes a little off topic at one point but I figured I'd add them in see if I could get a response from some peopel who know the class better than I

--I'm really tempted to attempt that spell deflection spec, looks enticing,..

It has been shown on Tankspot that a DW tank with two fast weapons and 31 expertise has the same amount of parries over time as a tank with a slow 2h weapon and the usual 26 expertise. Also, not all bosses parry-haste. Dramatization like "death sentence", taking "twice" the damage and other garbage is just hearsay.

Warriors prefer as fast a weapon as possible to tank, and nobody ever suggested a warrior was inferior to a Blood tank because his 1.5 weapon produced more parry-haste than our 3.6 2h. In the same vain, suggesting DW tanking will somehow magically make you die in an exploding gib of parryhasted death is totally over the top.

Frost tanking has 3% more avoidance and 2% more flat damage reduction. Add to that, Nerubian Carapace offers 1 more defence than Stoneskin Gargoyle, and 2xTanking 1h weapons are a lot superior in avoidance than any 2h could ever be.

So I put together my dual wield tank spec last night and I'm pleased with the potential. I'm still gemming and making some adjustments so I haven't taken it out for a spin just yet.
Anyway, I'm looking for the slowest 1 handed weapons I can find. Right now I have Razorscale TalonX2, which as far as I can tell by the available options, is respectable if you aren't tanking end game raid content. Last night I ran Ony and got excited when I saw Singed Vis'kag the Bloodletter based on the damage (same attack speed but higher ilevel and top end hit). But, I'm giving up stats and the proc is about as useful as the penis on a priest. Am I correct in assuming that I should stick with my 2 Razorscale Talons at this point?
Also, is the consensus that the minimum Hit/Expertise is 8%/30expertise (Assuming I'm not taking anything in ICC Raid, of course). I know that I can use more, but I am at the point where I would be sacrificing gem slots or enchants to build more when I can use the STA (I do have the 540+ defense).
Thanks!
Also, thanks for the macro suggestion with respect to Runestrike on every attack. REALLY helpful.

These are my current weapon options:
Death's Bite
Grimhorn Crusher (x2)

Are the two maces good enough for dual wield Frost tank?

If not, should I stick with 2h Frost as a tank or switch to 2h Blood?

How many Expertise does an DW tank need ?

Depends on what weapons you'll be using, usually being a tad bit over the actual recommended expertise cap is prior let's say using agility food or hit food, whatever you might be using.

I've been tanking as DW-Frost since of when they implemented the ToT talent into the frost tree. I've never had any issues whatsoever with threat. Actually I've been maintanking every boss there is, including Anub 25 hc, and now all bosses of Icecrown.

I can't help myself of seeing how so many doubt in dw-frost, how it's not viable and whatnot.

Threat - It's top of the foodchain, there's no way, no WAY whatsoever you can peak 15-18k TPS substained by _yourself_ no tricks/no misdirect on fights where of the bosses actually gives the potential of producing runestrikes in a good flow. I tanked as damn blood through the whole ulduar progression and sure it's "cute" and all with self-healing and vampiric blood but threat's just not reliable enough.

As of with frost you get more avoidance and 2% flat damage reduction - along with having UA with the t9 setbonus (potentially having it glyphed) you will reach Armor cap with or without an armor pot up (depending on gear choises ofc) I can't actually admit what went wrong in peoples mind when saying this cooldown aint good? It is good, and it's almost available, it lasts for 20 seconds. ontop of that you do have 18 seconds of IBF.

Also one thing I've been wondering about is how people moan about wether or wether there's no "actual" tanking weapons with good speed/stats for dw frost?

I've been using 2.60x2 speed wep's since I started. Sure they don't have "defensive" stats, but hey - who tanks with a 2hander with defensive stats? Oh wait.. There aren't any. The only 1handers that has defensive stats are for warrior/paladins. Let's face it? You wouldnt tank as DW-frost without proper speed on your weapons... that wouldnt be smart, come on kiddo.

been using the 12/52/7 build and it's working out fine, using 2x Aledar's Battlestar with split 10str/10hit gems in the yellow socket. hit rating seems good, expertise could use work (but that's just the result of needing better gear), and threat output is fine so far.

My question, though, is has anyone considered dropping GoFS and GoOb for Howling Blast and Icy Touch? I've had some success off tanking and AoE tanking by using howling blast to spread the +20% dmg frost fever. Has anyone else had similar results?

Personally, if you plan on AoEing as Frost, it is very handy to have the HB glyph, or a stack of it ready to swap in as needed. Because you will have much better early snap threat with it (except if you have deathchill/have it cooled), and in this time of heroic sprees, it's definitely a great glyph there.

I would drop glyph of FS if so. I am a bit too attached to the RS and OB glyphs to drop those though.