Two quel'serrars will not produce two procs. There is no point in pairing them. Frankly, I've never had issues with TPS to excuse using anything but two tanking weapons. I benched my QD MH a few raids after I got it simply because TPS wasn't an issue enough to excuse losing 150 or so defensive stats. I don't abide by the "well, blood tanks tank with a dps weapon, why shouldn't we?" theory. I think it's utter bullshit. If you have true TPS issues then that's a different matter, and one worth examining, however several times when such issues have turned up it's been demonstrated to be either lacking methodology (not nearly enough RS springs to mind) or lacking debuffs (missing Sunder or something similar)

The proc on Quel'Serrar however is quite fantastic.

I actually thought about that when the Q'D first came out cause I thought it would be cool lore wise, but I have had no luck in getting it.

Pintofbrew why are you saying anything about two procs? He's not talking about DW two Q'S... Also everything on this board constantly says that DW a slow dps/fast tanking provides more threat in general(last I checked...right?) so there's not really anything wrong with it. Also I would think you could still get away with DW a slow/fast and making the dpsers and tanks kinda mad instead of just making all the tanks just pissed : ).

The view that Frost DW needs one DPS MH to compete in TPS is outdated and possibly incorrect. Some tanks claim it's mandatory (and some even wear two DPS weapons) but there has not been conclusive research to prove that two tanking weapons are impossible to keep threat with. There are much more fundamental issues with threat which relate to how your raid deals with MD/TotT, whether you're using the correct abilities/glyphs/priority, and whether you have all apropriate buffs/debuffs. The latter point particularly in 10-man content.

I mentioned two QS because he specifically stated: a lot of DW's are using at least one Q'S but i wonder if they are slow enough to pair both of them together. This had been discussed at length when Ony was first introduced and concluded that they would produce a higher uptime slightly, but not two separate buffs.

QFT - I have both ony Quel'Serrars and have done a bit of testing dual-wielding them. The buffs don't stack but as best I can tell, the 245 version will overwrite the 232 version. It's hard to tell, but as best I can determine the 232 doesn't refresh the 245 buff. This hurts uptime because if the 232 version of the buff is up and then the 245 procs, the 245 will replace the 232, effectively boosting and extending the duration of the buff. However, if the 245 version of the buff is up and the 232 procs, nothing will happen because the better buff is already up and running.

If you're going to run a Quel'Serrar, I think the best approach is to offhand it with a slow DPS MH. Threat is good, you get the buff from the Q, and the expertise requirement is rather low. In fact, according to the math in this post at pwnwear.com a DW DK with a slow MH & 2.0 OH (Q speed) only needs 26 expertise.

They definitely look cool dual-wielding (kinda like dual green lightsabers) but that's not what's most important obviously.

I've found two tank weapons to be viable for aoe tanking where single target threat isnt as much of a factor and I need the extra tank stats when taking a beating from 5-15 mobs. I switch to dps weapons for threat buildup on bosses, then swap to tank weapons when I have a good threat lead. I think each weapon set really depends on your situation. Really good dps that explodes out of the gate (which they usually do) will be an aggro problem on bosses when using tanking weapons. This has been my experience to date.

I like DW tanking because its rarely seen and often surprising to healers who fidget when you don't show up with 40k health unbuffed, but prove to be more durable than Mr. Blood tank who stacked sta and beer stein trinkets but can't mitigate damage as well. (That's mostly a knock to the horde of bad pug blood tanks Ive seen)

There is not a lot of discussion on the use of FC as a MH enchant. Am I the only one who sees the benefit? Despite the recent PPM mehcanics nerf, it retains a very high uptime. 60-70% most fights with upwards of 90% uptime on some fights. The increased strength is great for threat and has amazing synergy with UA. The combined gain is enough to create a noticable percent increase in parry. The proc rate is also high enough that the rate of healing provided is in small increments (Aprox 1300 but can crit) but very steady and reliable and in effect increases the size of my health pool and even though though that gain is dynamic over the course of a fight is much larger than the ~500 hps provided by NC

I'm HB glyphed and if DnD isn't available, I just throw a skull on my target and HB/BB, then run my priorities. If you proc Rime then HB again and so forth - not really a big deal. Not sure what people do if they aren't glyphed for HB. However, if you are pushing the speed of the pulls then I'm not sure it's really an issue because you often have a couple seconds before the dps catches up and starts their burn. Use that time to get diseases up on everyone and you're golden. If not, just stand there and wait for DnD to come off CD before pulling.

Even if DnD is available I prefer to pull with a glyphed HB first and DnD second so that DnD benefits from TS

Even if you don't glyph HB it is still a decent pull when combined with blood boils. If you have overgeared DPS they will probably steal aggro, so depending on how fragile they are either wait for DND to come back up or save a KM proc for an opener.

I always try to save a KM proc for my next pull if I can see DND isn't going to be ready. A KM'd HB combined with 2 BBs has always served me well, even against main DPSers in my guild.

I disagree, but let's examine it: Assuming a 70% uptime, a fully-buffed tank shouldn't have more than 1850Str, and giving you the benefit of the doubt, let's assume the Runeforge stacks 15% on top of all the other percentile buffs, that's a 277Str increase for 70% of the fight, resulting in 195 average strength, which translates to an average of 49 Parry pre diminishing returns.

I'll take my self as a base-line (which is to your theory's advantage, because my low i-lvl means I'm further away from the harsh diminishing returns), raid-buff myself, and swap a stamina gem to a parry gem to evaluate how much real parry 20P offers: 0.21% avoidance. Not bad. half a Nerubian Carapace offers just over 1.5% avoidance, and is unaffected by diminishing returns. So the 49P offered by FC would be (less than) 0.515%, netting you an average loss of ~1% avoidance.

The heal is practically useless, irregular, irrelevant and unimportant. EH is hugely more important than an uncontrolable heal that's of less magnitude than a Renew tic.

With no doubt the threat gain from the Str is quite significant, however, you'll notice it's on the exact same magnitude as the Str gain from Sigil of Virulence, which costs you 200 Dodge, which is closer to 2.4% avoidance. Whether 0.9% avoidance is preferable to 1% health is up to you to decide, in item-value they're close if memory serves. However, sigil-swapping has the benefit of being doable in-combat: You can swap sigil in anticipation of a harsh pull and once ahead swap back to Insolence.

Or you could be really funky and put FC on a QS and swap both the FC-QS and the SoV for the pull, threat up, do some massive RS, then swap back to NC-enchanted tanking weapon and SoI. But do you really have so serious threat issues?

Yes after getting glyph of HB, everything is much easier. (at least for heroics).

Remember, weapons aren't a choice you have to make once in a raid. There's nothing stopping you from having the superior TPS weapons during the threat-sensitive part of the fight, and swapping to the faster, better EH weapons later once your threat lead is established. God knows there's plenty of dead-time when the frost tank is just staring at runes cool down.

any word on Last Word?

I obtained it in the 25man and then used it troughout the 10man.
here is a log for both raids, so make sure to select the 10man kills if you are going to do some digging
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I myself can't seem to find anything that indicates its worth using over any other 1h availeble.

Quick Question

I'm new here - so hello as well! I read this entire thread almost and can't get any solid info on 4pt9(i232) I have a DW frost DK I use for farming heroics and am wondering if 4pt9 is any good, or badge gearing better with 2pt9?

Thanks.

Well UA has a 20 second duration with a 60 second CD thus has a 33% uptime.

With 4pc T9 that increases it to a 40% uptime. Assuming you use it on CD.

Personally I think you would be better buying the ilvl245 Shoulders + Helm instead as for heroics you're not often chaining CD's like you do on raid bosses. On the AoE trash pulls yes, it's nice to have CD's since we cant block but 50sec CD Vs 60 makes no difference in that regard. If you really want it for a certain pull, just wait another 10 seconds.

I am putting together a dw frost tanking set. I am having trouble prioritizing stats past defense/hit ratings (I have both capped). I've asked around and people have said once i reach def cap to start stacking stam, is this correct?
I just assumed there would be some base avoidance Ii should be aiming for (like 30%dodge/parry)it'd be really cool if someone posted recommended minimums for tanking. Knowing what experienced tanks think minimum requirements for random regulars(halls of reflection), random heroics, naxx 10,and icc10 would be extremely helpful.

I'm not sure this is much of an argument. "there has not been conclusive research to prove that two tanking weapons are impossible to keep threat with" is pretty imprecise. A better question to ask would be, "what is the TPS difference between a statless 2.6 weapon and a statless 1.6 weapon?" Followed by "how much relative TPS is lost/gained when we add in arp, parry, dodge, etc on the two weapons?" Once we do that we can quantify how much TPS is lost in gaining a few tank stats. Obviously TPS is affected by other debuffs, but most of those should be easy to iron out. We could sim the two weapons and skip the intermediate step, of course.

But just declaring that fast/fast is sufficient to hold threat is incomplete.

This is something that Gravity actually did. Follow the Link. He also tested for the idea of changing various enchants out. Overall, slow/slow was 13% higher on threat than fast/fast when using only tanking enchants. The actual numbers he received are in there as well, but that gives you an idea of what you would lose threat wise if you were to change our your setup.

That being said, I still run a agi dps(slow)/tank(fast) setup personally. I feel like it's a good balance between threat and additional avoidance.

I did not talk of comparative relation between threat and avoidance stats. Of course it's been established. All I said was that there's no clear indication that tanking with two tanking weapons is unfeasible. It is imprecise and vague, because the nature of this beast is imprecise and vague. TPS is something you only need enough of, where "enough" = "however much your TPS can offload" - "however much you gain via Tricks/MD" + "however much margin you need to feel comfortable".

My statement is very far from being "pretty imprecise". It is extremely precise: Nobody has demonstrated the tanking weapon choice as unviable, so it is inaccurate to call it unviable, or ask for a global, definitive, single reply to the question of "what does a Frost DW tank with?".

Even in the most controlled environment it'll depend much more on your MD/TotT than your slow/fast fast/fast choice.

There is absolutely no point trying to accurately determine something inately non-static, that fluxes massively depending on raid execution. As far as I'm concerned, getting an MM hunter to Sting, MD, Rapid Fire, CS, AS, Readyness, CS, AS on you on the pull means you can tank the rest of the encounter with Fried Chicken Drumsticks. Got over-enthusiastic DPS and no MD/TotT? Weary of getting an unlucky string of no RS? Yes, clearly at least one slow weapon should be on your shopping list.

Definitely, the usefulness of my data is that IF you have threat problems, AND you can only improve it through your weapon choice, THEN you can look at the tables to determine if you can go slow/fast or need to go slow/slow.

Ok, but if we can go slow/slow and then switch to fast/fast when we have a substantial threat lead what's the best way of doing it? I've found that outfitter wont switch weapons during combat when you create a second outfit with the fast/fast weapons and I'm unsure of how to do this with a macro.

I use the game's built in equipment manager with an addon called EquipBind (on WoWinterface) to do in combat weapon swaps outside of macro functions.