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Old 01/03/09, 2:09 PM   #31
Zerath
Piston Honda
 
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Worgen Death Knight
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Asari View Post
Instead of trying to theorycraft about DW tanking, has anyone actually had success tanking all of Naxx 25 or Malygos as a DW tank? Is it even realistic to discuss it at this point and time?

Heroics are one thing. Raids where some people are critting for 20k and you're not are another.
It's rather pointless until patch since DW Frost tanking will be superior. That's why I was keeping questions/thoughts in the Tanking thread until patch.

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Old 01/03/09, 4:24 PM   #32
Asari
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Dawnbringer
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
It's rather pointless until patch since DW Frost tanking will be superior. That's why I was keeping questions/thoughts in the Tanking thread until patch.
Superior to what?

2h frost tanking is getting a buff as well. In addition the 25 defense skill to two handers probably outweighs any defense benefit you might get from DWing. Of course the counter to this argument is that with two weapons you can put 2% parry on each and still have the defense bonus.

So really it comes down to:

Total tanking stats (stam, dodge, parry, defense, hit, expertise) of DW vs. 2H
Threat generation of DW vs 2H
Damage difference due to parry between DW and 2H

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Old 01/03/09, 5:20 PM   #33
Teme
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Barthilas
Getting extra DEF is not the only reason we DW, its also for KM procs to generate threat. Having a slow 2H trying to proc KM with an already bad 7-8% crit just doesn't work.

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Old 01/03/09, 5:50 PM   #34
Torn
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Death Knight
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
Originally Posted by Asari View Post
Superior to what?
I can only guess but I think he means "superior to DW tanking before 3.0.8".

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Old 01/04/09, 3:03 PM   #35
Zerath
Piston Honda
 
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Worgen Death Knight
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Asari View Post
Superior to what?
I meant DW Frost Tanking 3.0.8 will be superior than DW Frost Tanking on current Live.

Originally Posted by Torn View Post
I can only guess but I think he means "superior to DW tanking before 3.0.8".
Correct, sir.

Originally Posted by Teme View Post
Getting extra DEF is not the only reason we DW, its also for KM procs to generate threat. Having a slow 2H trying to proc KM with an already bad 7-8% crit just doesn't work.
Adding on to this - it's also been shown and proven how any class able to DW it turns out superior than 2H in the long run. Granted, a few of us are "jumping the gun" but it's worth the test to see what happens.

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Old 01/04/09, 4:10 PM   #36
Baconslicer
The moral of the story is:
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
Adding on to this - it's also been shown and proven how any class able to DW it turns out superior than 2H in the long run.
Yes... for DPS. Warriors can dual-wield, but they don't dual-wield tank, not even for threat-sensitive fights.

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Old 01/04/09, 4:47 PM   #37
Kaylee
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Ravenholdt (EU)
Warriors get a large amount of their mitigation from a shield, as well as having abilities like Shield Slam and Shield Wall that require having a shield equipped. If abilities like Rune Strike and Icebound Fortitude required a 2H weapon equipped then nobody would be seriously thinking about DW tanking with a death knight either.

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Old 01/04/09, 5:14 PM   #38
Baconslicer
The moral of the story is:
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Kilrogg
Right, but the quote I was responding to was saying that DW has always turned out for the best in the long run. It's true that it's always turned out best for DPS, but we only have one historical data point for DW scaling for tanks: warriors.

Basically I don't think that it's valid to claim that DW is inherently better or worse for tanking based on how well it has worked for DPS in the past. If you just want to talk threat, then sure; I suspect DW threat will scale better than 2h threat. But threat isn't all there is to tanking, of course.

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Old 01/04/09, 7:27 PM   #39
Asari
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Dawnbringer
Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
Warriors get a large amount of their mitigation from a shield, as well as having abilities like Shield Slam and Shield Wall that require having a shield equipped. If abilities like Rune Strike and Icebound Fortitude required a 2H weapon equipped then nobody would be seriously thinking about DW tanking with a death knight either.
Rune Strike pretty much does require a 2 hander if you want to seriously consider it as a means of threat generation. Currently my RS crits are 6-10k depending on the fight and armor. A one hander will NEVER do that much. And the frequency of use depends on you getting hit, not a mob avoiding you. So DWing offers no benefit at all as far as rune strike goes.

The only real threat comparison I can see between DW and 2H is the use of Howling blast. But that's going to be the same between them... and OB might do more damage single target than HB (it does for me anyway). FS and RS and all your other strikes will generate higher threat as 2H.

You'll never get hit capped as a DW tank. You can get 9% hit and expertise capped, but that's about it. In order to pick up the skills that DW normally uses to do damage, you have to give up a lot of tanking ability - there just aren't enough talents. Either you drop talents that generate threat through skills in order to increase threat from auto attacks, or vica versa.



I'm curious to see someone try to tank 25 mans as DW post-patch. So far I've yet to see anyone even do heroics successfully without a hunter to misdirect them or just incredibly abysmal DPS in the group. Maybe the no-CD HB will help, but I seriously doubt it.

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Old 01/04/09, 9:42 PM   #40
Omnomnom
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
Adding on to this - it's also been shown and proven how any class able to DW it turns out superior than 2H in the long run. Granted, a few of us are "jumping the gun" but it's worth the test to see what happens.
Sadly people seem to either forget this, concentrate on current math, or just plainly wish it wasnt true. Its not going to change anytime soon.

Blizzards *basic design* of weapon swing-timers favors dual-wielding in PVE, 2h in pvp. In every class that can do it (where the option is 2h or DW, for the purposes of warrior/paladin tanking, the shield is a weapon) Its built in from the very bottom.

Lower damage on swing but higher swing speed favors extended fighting where there are no surprises. (And there are no 'surprises' in raiding) The consistency of non-2h builds revolves around their predictable output. And raiding is all about reducing anything resembling randomness. Higher damage on swing, but slower swing speed is always going to be more favorable the shorter the combat takes. Which is why 2h builds are much more effective in small groups than raids.

The problem is, without fiddling around with all the extra attacks, there is no possible way *currently* to make 2h damage/threat to the level of a dual-wielder over extended periods of time. Because everything that makes it match it, also increases its effectiveness in the shorter time periods, which then makes it vastly preferable to DW. And thats when the PVP whine starts up. Bumping up the threat but not the damage is a bad idea for obvious reasons.

When they DO fiddle around with the extras trying to balance 2h with DWers, you end up with Ret paladins who bounce up and down the DPS charts everytime they are patched. But the playerbase goes along with it because at least Blizzard *appear* to be doing something, despite knowing perfectly well without a major overhaul of the basic weapon mechanics its not going to solve anything.

And this is what is going to happen to the DK-2h's for the indefinite future. DW'ers will get to a static point sometime soon where they are considered balanced PVE-wise. Especially for the purposes of tanking. They are practically there now. However once the PVP nerfs (and they are coming) start hitting the 2h-builds, the same ping-ponging of effectiveness will carry on.

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Old 01/05/09, 1:06 AM   #41
Zerath
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Worgen Death Knight
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Baconslicer View Post
Yes... for DPS. Warriors can dual-wield, but they don't dual-wield tank, not even for threat-sensitive fights.
It's already been stated but warriors don't DW due to a shield is one of their main threat builders and mitigation. Makes sense for them not to DW tank.

Originally Posted by Baconslicer View Post
Right, but the quote I was responding to was saying that DW has always turned out for the best in the long run. It's true that it's always turned out best for DPS, but we only have one historical data point for DW scaling for tanks: warriors.

Basically I don't think that it's valid to claim that DW is inherently better or worse for tanking based on how well it has worked for DPS in the past. If you just want to talk threat, then sure; I suspect DW threat will scale better than 2h threat. But threat isn't all there is to tanking, of course.
Have you been following these threads at all? We're specifically talking about what puts out the most threat for specs.

Now, you're also commenting on how you don't think it's "valid" to make a claim yet I have said "There's no proof to any of this until patch releases with final numbers and I will physically be trying this."

What is there to tanking besides mitigation and threat? People are already showing the theory behind Parry-Hasting isn't as bad as once thought. Add in to our damage reduction is actually higher in the patch coupled with the buff to UA (glyphed even more so), just in case a parry haste would happen.

As of right now with 2H - the only complaint from healers is I don't take enough damage outside of 3dSarth.

Yes, we lose the ability for Stone Garg but it's still possible to carry around a 2H for those moments you would need one if DW does show better TPS.

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Old 01/05/09, 2:15 AM   #42
Torn
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Death Knight
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
Originally Posted by Asari View Post
Rune Strike pretty much does require a 2 hander if you want to seriously consider it as a means of threat generation. Currently my RS crits are 6-10k depending on the fight and armor. A one hander will NEVER do that much. And the frequency of use depends on you getting hit, not a mob avoiding you. So DWing offers no benefit at all as far as rune strike goes.
Pop in [Glyph of Rune Strike] and watch your Killing Machine procs. Rune Strike does make sense as a DW tank.

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Old 01/05/09, 2:32 AM   #43
Asari
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Dawnbringer
Originally Posted by Torn View Post
Pop in [Glyph of Rune Strike] and watch your Killing Machine procs. Rune Strike does make sense as a DW tank.
And I should give up what for that, exactly? Does Rune Strike even trigger KM? I'm not so sure it counts as an auto attack.

Icy Touch? No.. that 10 RP is pretty sick, especially when DWing...
Unbreakable Armor? God no, not after the patch...
Bone shield? Not if I got deep enough in unholy to get it...
IBF? Well, since I wouldn't use SS or OB as DW tank, this is probably the best replacement...
AMS? It's only like 2 seconds now... that's probably replaceable... too bad I only get 3 major glyphs.

Too bad there's no HB glyph.



RS makes sense no matter what spec tank you are. But as 2 hander you'll get much better usage out of it. As a DW the best thing that can happen is you get an avoidance string and knock off a bunch in a row - except then you're out of runic power and can't drop an IBF when you need to, or do anything else that requires RP. That's assuming its macroed of course. Some people don't macro it, and maybe when DWing it's more feasible not to. But if you don't play to use it every time it's up...


And of course you can always use that glyph when you're 2 handing - except there's more options since SS and OB are useful. Although one can argue you can do an odd 2 hand build using HB over oblit...

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Old 01/05/09, 2:33 AM   #44
Oathof Chaos
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Maelstrom
Originally Posted by Asari View Post
Rune Strike pretty much does require a 2 hander if you want to seriously consider it as a means of threat generation. Currently my RS crits are 6-10k depending on the fight and armor. A one hander will NEVER do that much. And the frequency of use depends on you getting hit, not a mob avoiding you. So DWing offers no benefit at all as far as rune strike goes.
If I'm not mistaken, Rune Strike works whenever either 1) Your attacks are parried or dodged, or 2) If you parry // dodge an attack or 2) Both

It states "Whenever an attack is parried or dodged."

If this point is true, then the higher your avoidance, the more often you'll be able to use Rune Strike.

If this point is false, then Rune Strike will begin to taper off in effectiveness depending on how close you are to the Hit and Expertise Caps.

And this will dramatically change how we perceive Rune Strike as a valid TPS builder, or DPS enhancer, or neither.

This might bring up another point though... if it is indeed a decent TPS builder, having high enough Avoidance would proc Runic Strike more often (and since it's "Next melee strike" it'll happen more often as a DW), which would make up the difference in Threat lost due to the less amount of damage output from a single Rune Strike from a 2h build.

Then you add in the procs from Rune Strike given from the actual parries and dodges from the fact that as DW Tank, we'll not be hitting the Hit or Expertise cap anytime soon, we'll have to test if the Rune Strike Threat generated from the near constant string of Rune Strikes would overtake any other threat generated from any other RP dumps.

Just my 2cp

Last edited by Oathof Chaos : 01/05/09 at 2:40 AM. Reason: Clairity

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Old 01/05/09, 2:36 AM   #45
Asari
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Dawnbringer
Originally Posted by Oathof Chaos View Post
If I'm not mistaken, Rune Strike works whenever either 1) Your attacks are parried or dodged, or 2) If you parry // dodge an attack... it states "Whenever an attack is parried or dodged."

If this point is true, then the higher your avoidance, the more often you'll be able to use Rune Strike.

If this point is false, then Rune Strike will begin to taper off in effectiveness depending on how close you are to the Hit and Expertise Caps.

And this will dramatically change how we perceive Rune Strike as a valid TPS builder, or DPS enhancer, or neither.
You're mistaken.

Rune strike only pops when YOU dodge or parry an enemies attack. The higher avoidance you have, the more it goes off.

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