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Old 01/05/10, 12:51 PM   #601
ihashotsforu
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Muradin
Originally Posted by Na8 View Post
Thanks Agent for the information one more question for bosses I am using a basic rotation IT-PS-OB-BS-BS-DUMP -- OB-OB-OB-DUMP with rune stirke macros on everything in your post you metioned Frost Strikes. So I was curious should I be using Frost Strike in my rotation or would you give me an example of what you use....
I use a very similar rotation as you do, and for my Runic dump I use Frost Strike. I'm fairly certain that is what Agent was referring to.

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Old 01/05/10, 1:07 PM   #602
Agent
Glass Joe
 
Agent's Avatar
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Karazhan (EU)
As we all know our Rotation last about 20 seconds into the fight, then things start to be less predictable.
My top priority is make sure my sigil procs for 20 sec increased dodge, so I always leave some RP when it's about to drop off. After that if my RP reaches 100 or all my runes are on cooldown I use FS to use the KM proc if I'm tanking a single target or I wait to use HB with for AoE packs. I usually don't bother to use FS if I don't have KM, I'm not sure if it's the best way to go but I got use to it.

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Old 01/06/10, 6:39 AM   #603
Amiro
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
The Venture Co (EU)
DUMP may also mean blowing HoW - even just for more RP.

In this rotation, especially at start of fight you may find yourself with not enough RP for Rune Strike. I use Frost Strike only if I'm over 80 RP, because for me it has way better aggro/RP ratio even if FS is used only with KM proc.

From my recent logs RS non-crit hits for about 3720 (MH+OH). With cost of 20 RP it's 186 damage/RP.
FS crits for 6556 (MH+OH). Cost depends if you are glyphed for it (I'm not for better AoE aggro of GoHB), but even considering glyphed cost of 32 RP, it's 204 damage/RP. Without GoFS its 164 damage/RP.

If glyphed it's only slightly better, but considering threat modifier of RS, it is just pure threat waste if you FS, but can't afford next RS.

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Old 01/06/10, 7:39 AM   #604
Agent
Glass Joe
 
Agent's Avatar
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Karazhan (EU)
Thank you for that Amiro, I am shamed to admit that I never did the math.
Considering the fact that rune strike had a 1.5 threat mod and got a 17% threat buff in patch 3.3 - your 3720 dmg would cause 2.0735*3720*1.5*1.17 = 13537 threat while FS crit would generate 2.0735*6556 = 13593 - almost the same but at the cost of more RP ... not to forget RS can crit too which will cause way more.

I will be changing my priority to ALWAYS keep enough RP for RS even at the cost of losing a KM proc.

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Old 01/06/10, 11:48 AM   #605
Konata
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Amiro View Post
DUMP may also mean blowing HoW - even just for more RP.

In this rotation, especially at start of fight you may find yourself with not enough RP for Rune Strike. I use Frost Strike only if I'm over 80 RP, because for me it has way better aggro/RP ratio even if FS is used only with KM proc.

From my recent logs RS non-crit hits for about 3720 (MH+OH). With cost of 20 RP it's 186 damage/RP.
FS crits for 6556 (MH+OH). Cost depends if you are glyphed for it (I'm not for better AoE aggro of GoHB), but even considering glyphed cost of 32 RP, it's 204 damage/RP. Without GoFS its 164 damage/RP.

If glyphed it's only slightly better, but considering threat modifier of RS, it is just pure threat waste if you FS, but can't afford next RS.
You do not get that much dmg per RP with runestrike. Remember that runestrike takes place of a normal melee hit. If you hit with both weapons at the same time, since RS uses both hands, RS will only provide you with 124 dmg/RP.

@agent: It won't provide as much threat as listed either. Since it takes place of a normal melee hit.

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Old 01/07/10, 4:45 AM   #606
Amiro
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
The Venture Co (EU)
No. RS can be used only on MH swings, and because of ToT 3/3:

"When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Rune Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon."

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Old 01/07/10, 5:03 AM   #607
Konata
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Amiro View Post
No. RS can be used only on MH swings, and because of ToT 3/3:

"When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Rune Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon."
I know that. I never said anything about that.

What I said before still holds true. You are replacing a MH melee hit with a RS. Therefore you are only gaining the the 0.5*MH + 1.5 *OH damage. Which will provide less damage/RP than you listed. FS, is an instant attack where you gain an extra attack if you have a free GCD, so it is all added extra threat. And you will have alot of free GCDs due to the RS spamming.

I only mention hitting with both hands at the same time so it would be easier to compare to get the 124 dmg/RP and since you did not list your damage using MH and OH normal hits. You would be getting a little more than 124 dmg/RP.

Edit: Forgot about the +damage on RS as well.

It actually only on average 115 damage/RP for me.

With average MH hit of 1.3k and average RS for 3.6k. All in all, FS > RS in terms of damage/RP.

Last edited by Konata : 01/07/10 at 5:22 AM.

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Old 01/07/10, 6:13 AM   #608
Amiro
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
The Venture Co (EU)
I use 2x [Nighttime] for tanking (never considered DW tanking while in ToC, so never need on 1H ), so both weapons are the same. RS replaces only MH attack.

RS MH avg: 2379.2
RS OH avg: 1340.8

FS MH crit: 4210.5
FS OH crit: 2346.3

melee avg: 729.4 (no split in WoL for MH,OH)

RS non-crit costs me 20 RP and deals 3720 damage.
FS crit costs 32 RP (I'm not glyphed for it, but we can consider "better case" here) and deals 6556.8 damage.

The missing melee hit you mentioned takes place only when you crit-FS, with available RS, but can't use RS because of shortage of RP. But damage per RP is damage per RP.

If you want to factor white hits, for potential loss. You should IMHO also factor RS crit rate for example.

In my post I stated, that instead of FS on each KM proc, I want to ensure first, I have enough RP for RS. I can first HoW or use the KM with Rime because RS does more threat per RP. Just alone RS vs alone FS without considering everything else what can possibly happen.

Please clarify what you mean by "not that much dmg per RP with RS". And please remember we are talking about RS's threat per RP vs FS's threat per RP, not FS's + white MH melee, as the white melee is not always guaranteed, just as Rune Strike crit isn't.

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Old 01/07/10, 11:16 AM   #609
rooppa
Banned
 
Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Going to try and make this as clear as I can so that others reading this in the future will understand this and if this is questioned in a general moronic way again, people should receive an infraction for it.

Dodge/Parry/Miss/block (not DK's for the last one) = AVOIDENCE
Health/Armor/Damage reduction talents = EFFECTIVE HEALTH

PARRY does not impact on EFFECTIVE HEALTH
ARMOR does not impact on AVOIDENCE

a priests power word sheild increase's your EFFECTIVE HEALTH not your AVOIDENCE
a signel that increases your dodge rating for X amount for y time increases your AVOIDENCE not your EFFECTIVE HEALTH

There is no such mechanic where increasing a avoidence stat will increase your effective health or vice versa at this point in time.

Therefore when comparing say the 1 hander sword enchants, its 2% parry which is 2 % avoidence VS 13 defence which is X% of avoidence (unsure on exact figures as depends on your personal stats in relation to the deminishing returns curve. You dont understand what that means? go read more about the deminishing returns curve before you come back here and comment.) and 1% effective health, they are compleatly different in there use/merits, and always should be veiwed as that.

Pretty please, apples and oranges need to stop being compared. They are still fruit, but the new green grocers are becoming confused, and the older ones more irrate.

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Old 01/07/10, 12:06 PM   #610
Lanlaorn
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Khadgar
Therefore when comparing say the 1 hander sword enchants, its 2% parry which is 2 % avoidence VS 13 defence which is X% of avoidence (unsure on exact figures as depends on your personal stats in relation to the deminishing returns curve. You dont understand what that means? go read more about the deminishing returns curve before you come back here and comment.) and 1% effective health, they are compleatly different in there use/merits, and always should be veiwed as that.
While I agree with the spirit of the rest of your post, as accuracy in terms is very helpful in any serious discussion (block is definitely mitigation and not avoidance btw), you are very mistaken on the defense from Nerubian Carapace (and Stoneskin Gargoyle). Namely, the avoidance gained from their defense completely ignores DR. This is easily confirmed in-game by donning/doffing your SSG 2hander and seeing Dodge/Parry/Miss increase/decrease by exactly 1%.

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Old 01/07/10, 3:04 PM   #611
rubenst6
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Arygos
All apologies

Roopa:
1) Try the decaf there, Road-warrior. You are correct, I didn't use "effective" health correctly. I was trying to express the idea that avoidance reduces the damage that one takes and consequently their health "effectively" goes farther. "Effective Health" means something completely different. Careful use of jargon is important in these nuanced discussions. Please accept my sincere and humble apologies. I would like to move on.
2) I'm less interested in carefully documenting terms of art here and more curious about what people are doing with their rune forging. Now that my error has been identified (and conceded), can we get to the subject of the question, please? What do people think about the trade off between the health and minor avoidance from Nerubian Carapace versus the significant avoidance offered by Swordbreaking? I'm curious if anyone has had revelations since this issue was last addressed prior to actually playing with both.

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Old 01/10/10, 9:00 AM   #612
Agent
Glass Joe
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Karazhan (EU)
This may not be the right place to post this, but I think choosing between 4% parry, 3.5% avoid 1% stam and 3% avoid 2% stam is quite easy - for most fights I will go with stam, for avoidance fights (gunship, deathbringer 25) I would go for 4% parry.
The real issue here is that DKs desperately need a new rune ... one that gives no avoidance (or little) and much more effective health - either by armor or stamina. I hate the fact that my healers prefer healing any other tank and not DKs (not just me in general).

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Old 01/11/10, 3:58 AM   #613
Amiro
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
The Venture Co (EU)
Agent, if you (your healers?) want more health and less avoidance, just respec to blood 2h.
Frost has better avoidance and mitigation at cost of pure max hp. DW frost sacrifices even more health for better threat.
If your healers can't live with it you have three options:
1. you respec blood for more hp
2. your healers read combat logs and see there is not much healing needed for you compared to other tanks
3. you respec unholy dps and top dps meters

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Old 01/11/10, 12:39 PM   #614
Grigori
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Lanlaorn View Post
Namely, the avoidance gained from their defense completely ignores DR. This is easily confirmed in-game by donning/doffing your SSG 2hander and seeing Dodge/Parry/Miss increase/decrease by exactly 1%.
A note of caution: Remember that the 2H weapon must have neither Str nor Agi for your Dodge/Parry to increase by exactly 1%.

A second note of caution: The total Dodge/Parry chances on your default UI are post-DR values, whereas the subtext values (where it says X rating gives you Y Dodge/Parry) are pre-DR values. The default UI only displays the pre-DR value for miss chance and, as far as I know, there has been no known reliable test performed to see if the miss chance from SG is actually exempt from DR. I image most presume that it is, because the default UI post-DR values for Dodge/Parry show no DR for SG (which may even be a display bug itself particular to all flat non-rating defense increase).

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Old 01/11/10, 2:04 PM   #615
Whatevr
Banned
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Gorefiend
Just wondering, has anybody else has been tryin out DW tank builds with IIT? I have to spec it since our guild has no enhance shammy for both 10 and 25 man so I was curious to see if anybody else had attempted to put a build together for it. My armory now is what I've come up with that works out very well with threat still.

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