DW Tanking Builds 3.3 - updated 12/01/10 - Page 42

germanator · 01/11/10, 3:01 PM

Yes, I tank with IIT because of our lack on enhancement shamans as well. I also have acclimation for mitigation, and I use DND and Death strike rotations even with fast tank weapons(im glyhped for it and the heath gained is very nice). Most of the talent, glyph, and weapon choices are based on to fully concentrate on mitigation and avoidance(i tank with quelsarrar + legacy of thunder(for expertise)).

The threat is fine in a sustained sense, but the burst threat is a bit lacking and I have to rely more on spells for that.

Illu · 01/11/10, 3:02 PM

I tried dropping Black Ice for ITT since I was in the same boat, it works but you lose some AoE threat. Not much single target though. In the end I decided to head back to 2h tanking, I just find that 2h has a better chance of yielding a KM proc early, as well as allowing for a more efficient spec, even if Dw produces more Rime procs.

Sometimes I wonder if they have taken these things into account when they shifted Frost more to DW. That KM has the same PPM for either style, means that 2h will get more. Not complaining though, since it feels like it helps 2h feel viable still. :p

But getting a bit sidetracked. I think that Dw tanking just works better in 25man raiding, where it's less crucial that you bring a buff as a tank, but it still does work fine, and if you run with a enhance shammy, you're just as set.

rubenst6 · 01/11/10, 3:11 PM

ITT builds were a big source of discussion earlier on in the thread. They were generally frowned upon. You end up giving up an awful lot. The consensus seemed to be that a tank's first priority should be working effectively as a tank, not providing buffs to the group. That having been said, if you scroll back you can at least find some other discussion and specs.
SUMMATION: ITT in a dual wield tanking build not well received.

Derivel · 01/11/10, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Illu

...In the end I decided to head back to 2h tanking, I just find that 2h has a better chance of yielding a KM proc early, as well as allowing for a more efficient spec, even if Dw produces more Rime procs.

Sometimes I wonder if they have taken these things into account when they shifted Frost more to DW. That KM has the same PPM for either style, means that 2h will get more. Not complaining though, since it feels like it helps 2h feel viable still. :p

How does DW get more Rime procs? It's based on obliterate, which is independent of whether you're DWing or 2Hing.

It's also contradictory to say that KM has the same PPM for both specs but 2H gets more procs, unless you're factoring in haste perhaps?

Lanlaorn · 01/11/10, 4:44 PM

A Duel Wield Obliterate counts as two separate Obliterates with regards to proccing Rime.

kalipou · 01/11/10, 11:22 PM

I used to tank on my DK a while back and ran as Frost 2h until i got sick of the whole disease mechanic.

Recently I've been thinking of undusting him and taking him out for a few heroics but all the new dual wield stuff makes me doubt.

I currently (used to) tank raids/heroics with this build 15/51/5 and am wondering, with all the changes to the frost tree, would I have better threat if I switched to DW tanking with slow/fast weapons? I'm wondering if the 6 "lost" points and the extra stat weighting are worth getting over just sticking to my old 2h build.

PS: I'm aware the build looks strange, I remember choosing it back then because it offered me better threat all around, Death Rune Mastery would give me more freedom as far as my runes were concerned but its probably a whole other story now anyway).

Whatevr · 01/11/10, 11:47 PM

I don't think I'd go 2h frost just mainly due to the threat that dw holds over it. Regardless the build I've been using still possesses tons of threat as well as generating enough RP.

11/55/5

I didn't see a need for epidemic since I've already become used to not having it in my frost dps spec (don't currently use it anymore). I haven't lost any real tanking ability by using this build and the threat still remains high in 25 mans as well as still providing the buff for the raid.

Pintofbrew · 01/12/10, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Illu

That KM has the same PPM for either style, means that 2h will get more.

I'm not sure I understand why you think this: Are you suggesting a PPM mechanic will assign a given % to proc per hit, dependent on weapon speed, not taking hit into account? The only reason I see 2H producing a KM proc anytime sooner would be that. Because if miss chance isn't taken into account, then all things considered DW may in fact produce KM faster (note: faster, not more necessarily more in total), as it's less prone to statistical spiking due to high frequency.

rmthrash · 01/12/10, 10:32 AM

I've been 2h Frost tanking for a bit and recently switched over to DW. I was wondering what people thought about DW tanking with a Quel'Serrar (either gleaming or burnished) and Quel'Delar Cunning of the Shadows. At 2.70 Q'D is a slowish dps weapon and at 2.00 Q'S is a fastish tank weapon. Is this a reasonable pairing or will I lose out on other more necessary stats. From what i've ready in this thread a lot of DW's are using at least one Q'S but i wonder if they are slow enough to pair both of them together, hence why i thought of pairing it with the slower Q'D.

*note I also think it would be cool to wield both together and they would look spiffy.

Illu · 01/12/10, 6:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

I'm not sure I understand why you think this: Are you suggesting a PPM mechanic will assign a given % to proc per hit, dependent on weapon speed, not taking hit into account? The only reason I see 2H producing a KM proc anytime sooner would be that. Because if miss chance isn't taken into account, then all things considered DW may in fact produce KM faster (note: faster, not more necessarily more in total), as it's less prone to statistical spiking due to high frequency.

Over time, I don't think there is a difference, but since a 2h produces less white hits over a minute's time, wouldn't it be accurate to say that there is a higher likelihood they get one in the first few hits due to ppm/hit-miss ratio? Perhaps I am completely wrong there though, it was more something I have noticed that I usually seem to recieve the KM procs sooner as 2h. If someone can blow a hole in that reasoning it won't really make me sad I was wrong.

As to the Rime thing, you do indeed get 15% chance to proc it per hand when you Obliterate, like was said.

Edited for clarity

Pintofbrew · 01/12/10, 6:50 PM

Two quel'serrars will not produce two procs. There is no point in pairing them. Frankly, I've never had issues with TPS to excuse using anything but two tanking weapons. I benched my QD MH a few raids after I got it simply because TPS wasn't an issue enough to excuse losing 150 or so defensive stats. I don't abide by the "well, blood tanks tank with a dps weapon, why shouldn't we?" theory. I think it's utter bullshit. If you have true TPS issues then that's a different matter, and one worth examining, however several times when such issues have turned up it's been demonstrated to be either lacking methodology (not nearly enough RS springs to mind) or lacking debuffs (missing Sunder or something similar)

The proc on Quel'Serrar however is quite fantastic.

gamer88 · 01/16/10, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by rmthrash

I've been 2h Frost tanking for a bit and recently switched over to DW. I was wondering what people thought about DW tanking with a Quel'Serrar (either gleaming or burnished) and Quel'Delar Cunning of the Shadows. At 2.70 Q'D is a slowish dps weapon and at 2.00 Q'S is a fastish tank weapon. Is this a reasonable pairing or will I lose out on other more necessary stats. From what i've ready in this thread a lot of DW's are using at least one Q'S but i wonder if they are slow enough to pair both of them together, hence why i thought of pairing it with the slower Q'D.

*note I also think it would be cool to wield both together and they would look spiffy.

I actually thought about that when the Q'D first came out cause I thought it would be cool lore wise, but I have had no luck in getting it.

Pintofbrew why are you saying anything about two procs? He's not talking about DW two Q'S... Also everything on this board constantly says that DW a slow dps/fast tanking provides more threat in general(last I checked...right?) so there's not really anything wrong with it. Also I would think you could still get away with DW a slow/fast and making the dpsers and tanks kinda mad instead of just making all the tanks just pissed : ).

Pintofbrew · 01/18/10, 6:22 AM

The view that Frost DW needs one DPS MH to compete in TPS is outdated and possibly incorrect. Some tanks claim it's mandatory (and some even wear two DPS weapons) but there has not been conclusive research to prove that two tanking weapons are impossible to keep threat with. There are much more fundamental issues with threat which relate to how your raid deals with MD/TotT, whether you're using the correct abilities/glyphs/priority, and whether you have all apropriate buffs/debuffs. The latter point particularly in 10-man content.

I mentioned two QS because he specifically stated: a lot of DW's are using at least one Q'S but i wonder if they are slow enough to pair both of them together. This had been discussed at length when Ony was first introduced and concluded that they would produce a higher uptime slightly, but not two separate buffs.

zuke8675309 · 01/18/10, 10:51 AM

I mentioned two QS because he specifically stated: a lot of DW's are using at least one Q'S but i wonder if they are slow enough to pair both of them together. This had been discussed at length when Ony was first introduced and concluded that they would produce a higher uptime slightly, but not two separate buffs.

QFT - I have both ony Quel'Serrars and have done a bit of testing dual-wielding them. The buffs don't stack but as best I can tell, the 245 version will overwrite the 232 version. It's hard to tell, but as best I can determine the 232 doesn't refresh the 245 buff. This hurts uptime because if the 232 version of the buff is up and then the 245 procs, the 245 will replace the 232, effectively boosting and extending the duration of the buff. However, if the 245 version of the buff is up and the 232 procs, nothing will happen because the better buff is already up and running.

If you're going to run a Quel'Serrar, I think the best approach is to offhand it with a slow DPS MH. Threat is good, you get the buff from the Q, and the expertise requirement is rather low. In fact, according to the math in this post at pwnwear.com a DW DK with a slow MH & 2.0 OH (Q speed) only needs 26 expertise.

They definitely look cool dual-wielding (kinda like dual green lightsabers) but that's not what's most important obviously.

Talut · 01/18/10, 2:25 PM

I've found two tank weapons to be viable for aoe tanking where single target threat isnt as much of a factor and I need the extra tank stats when taking a beating from 5-15 mobs. I switch to dps weapons for threat buildup on bosses, then swap to tank weapons when I have a good threat lead. I think each weapon set really depends on your situation. Really good dps that explodes out of the gate (which they usually do) will be an aggro problem on bosses when using tanking weapons. This has been my experience to date.

I like DW tanking because its rarely seen and often surprising to healers who fidget when you don't show up with 40k health unbuffed, but prove to be more durable than Mr. Blood tank who stacked sta and beer stein trinkets but can't mitigate damage as well. (That's mostly a knock to the horde of bad pug blood tanks Ive seen)