Few comments about your particular choice of talents. Scent of Blood is terrible, whatever the build. Maybe if they removed the cooldown, or made it lower, it'd be ok, but currently it's just way too slow. Butchery is also very meh for threat in general since the RP generation is really slow. You'd get more out of 9%crit on bloodstrikes(which you will probably end up doing, unless you pestilence your blood runes, which is quite a loss of dps, but not parryable/dodgable), and imp runetap.
As for your first build I highly question Ravenous Dead. Assuming you have 1500str(which is more than what I have I believe), 3% more would be 45more str, which is nice for threat. However the parry rating gained from it is pretty much a non factor, you'd gain 11parry rating, which with DR taken into account, is probably close to 0.1%parry at best. I'd take Epidemic instead, and use the last point either in ravenous for threat, or death grip cooldown for fanciness, or in frost for icy reach. Actually as DW frost I guess epidemic isn't really useful since you reapply IT every rotation anyway, but still not sure, it seems like a decent threat talent, but I'd go for ease of use talents like icy reach before that.
Well, in the first build you can move 3 points from Ravenous Dead to Dark Conviction instead then, or Subversion. 3% crit on all abilities vs 9% on just blood strikes.
In the other you can pick up maxed Rune Tap I guess. The thing is you're gonna use up a lot of Runic power with Frost Strikes and Rune Strikes, you might want all the RP you can get.
Now, out of academical curiosity, with the upcoming changes to blood, the Killing machine nerf and the hefty amount of expertise in the tree, wouldn't this tree present itself as a decent contender for dual wielding?
My brother had something along the lines of 55/8/8 in mind, and unless I'm missing anything, a 1 minute Last Stand, 11 expertise and 6% extra stamina would go a long way in compensating the dual wield penalty. The thing I worry about, though, is the sharpness of the decrease in Rune Strike availability. Due to horrible connection to the PTR, we are unable to get any reliable testing in a raid setting, but personally, I find this pretty solid once you can afford to stop gemming for defense.
Last edited by Enova : 01/09/09 at 11:13 PM.
Reason: phrasing
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Deep blood would be quite a bit behind frost and unholy in terms of AOE, relying on DnD would have your group pull aggro for any extended AOE pull.
Your single target threat would also be quite bad, IT, HS and OB won't be hitting hard enough. There is plenty of expertise gear to put you over the cap so the only benefit I can see is the 6% stam increase which isn't enough to compensate for the rest of the blood tree talents.
There's just no synergy in blood for DW apart from the first 10 pts.
Deep blood would be quite a bit behind frost and unholy in terms of AOE, relying on DnD would have your group pull aggro for any extended AOE pull.
Your single target threat would also be quite bad, IT, HS and OB won't be hitting hard enough. There is plenty of expertise gear to put you over the cap so the only benefit I can see is the 6% stam increase which isn't enough to compensate for the rest of the blood tree talents.
There's just no synergy in blood for DW apart from the first 10 pts.
I can attest to this...I couldn't pull more than 2500 TPS while spec'd somewhat similarly (don't ask why I was even spec'd close to this).
On a side note I changed my spec to 5/36/30 to pick up UA (my spec is fucked up on the Armory, pretend that the one point in Blood of the North is in UA) and MT'd through most of 10 man Naxx tonight with no real threat issues (or mitigation), KM procs were few and far between but the patch will change that.
Strong points about that spec is that it has Tundra Stalker, which will make EVERY spell or ability hit for 10% harder, while granting 5 expertise. No matter how you turn that, that's very strong. When we're dualwielding, Expertise is a very strong stat to stack since we're already hitting the boss more frequently, so the hits that are not Frost Strikes or Rune Strikes we will want to make sure those don't get parried or dodged. Furthermore, it has a maxed out Guile of Gorefiend, making Icebound Fortitude together with 4t7 last a whole 21 seconds. Considering you'll be pressing IBF everytime the cooldown is up (no matter what they're trying to do, as long as it has such a short cooldown, that's what you'll end up doing). Of course, we can't neglect that GoG buffs two of our main threat generating abilities. The points in Unholy are pretty obvious. Ravenous Strength = Parry = Avoidance. Virulence = spell hit and considering a lot of our main threat abilities (Howling Blast & Icy Touch) are considered spells, we can't really afford having them miss a lot.
Bladed Armor in Blood is pretty much the equivalent to Impurity, so that's a no brainer why it's so good.
Overall, I think this is a very good spec for threat. I'm not so convinced about Ravenous Dead since it will add only some 40 (?) strength. Some modification ideas: Swap Lichborne with Death Chill and macro Death Chill together with HB. Now that really hits like a truck. I believe a frost tank has enough "oh shit"-buttons with UA and IBF. I'd also take Icy Talons in case there's no Enh Shaman in my group.
Now the thing I'm always worried about is: Where's the difference to a 2H frost tank?
1.) We benefit more from KM than a 2H tank. (10 ppm vs. 5 ppm)
2.) Stacking mitigation is easier due to tanking weapons.
I never did like putting points into virulence as it isn't 'that' hard to get hit rating from gear. Losing 1 point from rime isn't so bad and I'm still keeping at least 2/3 morbidity for versatility between raids and heroics. Dropping lichbourne to max rime would be an option but for 1pt that gives CC immunity and extra avoidance it would be too good to pass up.
This spec would also be good to dps with if the situation calls for it.
I never did like putting points into virulence as it isn't 'that' hard to get hit rating from gear. Losing 1 point from rime isn't so bad and I'm still keeping at least 2/3 morbidity for versatility between raids and heroics. Dropping lichbourne to max rime would be an option but for 1pt that gives CC immunity and extra avoidance it would be too good to pass up.
This spec would also be good to dps with if the situation calls for it.
Spell cap is 18%. We normally rock ~8% hit(this is like ~10% spell hit?). There is no way I would drop my stam/def/etc gems for pure +Hit gems to maintain the 18%.
I haven't had any problems with 8% hit, spells don't miss when I'm dps in naxx. Mind you its kinda hard to reach 8% as tanking spec but I still think the points can be better spent elsewhere. There's no need to strictly follow the spell cap seeing as dps specs have no problem with spells missing with 8-9% hit, and no I don't use +hit gems at all.
I haven't had any problems with 8% hit, spells don't miss when I'm dps in naxx. Mind you its kinda hard to reach 8% as tanking spec but I still think the points can be better spent elsewhere. There's no need to strictly follow the spell cap seeing as dps specs have no problem with spells missing with 8-9% hit, and no I don't use +hit gems at all.
You've had amazing RNG and you were DPSing. Let me say there's people reporting full on misses from under 18% spell hit - not partial resist. That will flub up our rotation, stop TPS, and very possibly cause issues if it was the beginning of the encounter.
After 18% comes partial resists but this is also the point where you want to be for HB>OB from the numbers, also.
You've had amazing RNG and you were DPSing. Let me say there's people reporting full on misses from under 18% spell hit - not partial resist. That will flub up our rotation, stop TPS, and very possibly cause issues if it was the beginning of the encounter.
After 18% comes partial resists but this is also the point where you want to be for HB>OB from the numbers, also.
You're not at 8% hit according to your armory, and since you gem for +def how do you expect to be remotely near 18% hit? Dropping your 2H for 2 1H will give you 70-80 def rating which will free up your 2 ring slots and having hit rating rings to replace them will only get you close to 8%.
To reach 18% hit at the expense of your other stats would just make you a bad tank, and seriously there is just no way to get 18% hit. All you can try to do is take what you can from gear, if gear has hit then more power to you but if not don't worry about it.
People are putting too much emphasis on having 18% or they are screwed, if you say its so important, why are you running naxx with less than 8% hit?
EDIT: Forgot to mention the hit rating you get from other classes will make up for the deficit, and yes I know virulence is to get you closer to 18% but pts are still better spent elsewhere.
You're not at 8% hit according to your armory, and since you gem for +def how do you expect to be remotely near 18% hit? Dropping your 2H for 2 1H will give you 70-80 def rating which will free up your 2 ring slots and having hit rating rings to replace them will only get you close to 8%.
To reach 18% hit at the expense of your other stats would just make you a bad tank, and seriously there is just no way to get 18% hit. All you can try to do is take what you can from gear, if gear has hit then more power to you but if not don't worry about it.
People are putting too much emphasis on having 18% or they are screwed, if you say its so important, why are you running naxx with less than 8% hit?
EDIT: Whoops I was thinking of melee hit, yes he does have 8% spell hit, so that means at around 280 hit (10-11% spell hit) would be enough for you to drop virulence.
Is there really any point to DW tanking once the 3.08 patch hits? The new Runeforge enchant is equivalent to 123 defense rating while still allowing you to keep the DPS/TPS stats on a 2H weapon. The new KM mechanic seems to strongly benefit 2H tanks even with the aura (probably a bug) applying to both DW weapons.
Right now the entire downsides to tanking with deep Frost and a 2H or DW setup:
- Guile of Gorefiend is great when you crit a ton, but with a tiny crit rate as tanks and KM barely doing anything for us, lower tier Blood/Unholy talents are better.
- Frost Strike is great with a 2H weapon, but in general the rest of the Frost tree isn't very conducive to 2H tanking. Especially not with what you'd have to give up in Unholy to reach Frost Strike.
- Killing Machine is terrible with tank gear and a 2H, and better but still not close to amazing with a DW setup.
But after the patch hits...
- Killing Machine is all of a sudden treating 2H tanks as if they had 60+% crit under the previous iteration. A slow 2H weapon will have ~30.8% chance per hit to proc KM. Each of your 1H tanking weapons will have ~13.3% chance to proc it per hit. The problem is that it's easier to cap hit on 2H swings, 1H will be missing much more often. So while a 2H might end up amounting to a 28-29% chance per swing (not per hit, this factors in misses, dodges, parries), the 1H might only come out to a 10% chance per swing once taking into account the amount of misses a DW will see. Old KM didn't make that an issue since you can't miss a crit. New one definitely penalizes missed swings.
DW tanks will still proc more KMs than 2H tanks assuming the bug is actually intended, but the gain is very minimal. Looking at maybe an effective ~7-7.5ppm once misses are factored compared to ~5ppm. The Frost Strikes and single target Obliterate will offset that, as will Blood Strike which still gets used twice per 10s.
Your other option is to move to slower 1H weapons with DPS stats, but once you do that, you've completely lost the entire point of DW tanking; the stats.
Also I think when looking at something like KM with 1H weapons and an effective 9-10% chance per swing... things could get VERY streaky. Might go on a huge dry spell and then all of a sudden you proc 2 KMs on back to back swings which overwrite each other before you can use an ability. 2H are slow enough that back to back procs still allow ability use in between.
- Guile of Gorefiend becomes MUCH better after 3.08 because our abilities are actually critting on a regular basis once KM changes and are getting the damage boost more often.
- Frost Strike is beefy with a 2H. Since deep Frost is much more attractive due to KM, you're picking up FS anyway. It majorly favors a 2H weapon. Frost Strike also has the perfect scaling method for DK tanks... entirely based on weapon damage. We might not have the AP of a DPS DK, but we have the exact same weapon. Your raw weapon DPS makes up close to half of your total weapon damage when you use big 2H weapons. I think you'll see Obliterate and Frost Strike scaling much better in Ulduar cause of this than Howling Blast for DK tanks.
- New Rune Strike being a 225% threat weapon attack versus the old 200% threat weapon attack. Rune Strike heavily favors 2H tanking.
You're not at 8% hit according to your armory, and since you gem for +def how do you expect to be remotely near 18% hit? Dropping your 2H for 2 1H will give you 70-80 def rating which will free up your 2 ring slots and having hit rating rings to replace them will only get you close to 8%.
To reach 18% hit at the expense of your other stats would just make you a bad tank, and seriously there is just no way to get 18% hit. All you can try to do is take what you can from gear, if gear has hit then more power to you but if not don't worry about it.
People are putting too much emphasis on having 18% or they are screwed, if you say its so important, why are you running naxx with less than 8% hit?
EDIT: Forgot to mention the hit rating you get from other classes will make up for the deficit, and yes I know virulence is to get you closer to 18% but pts are still better spent elsewhere.
I'm 8% hit with buffs in Naxx and I'm Unholy, so, it's not that dire for spell hit compared to HB. Now, I'm regemming today and tomorrow for more +hit to break 8% [melee] hit unbuffed, with all our buffs and Virulence that will leave me at 18% spell hit when I go DW.
We're pushing 18% Spell Hit so hard because if you Miss it flubbs your rotation. We'll still get partial resists, though.
And you're ignoring everything I've said about 18% spell hit. We are able to get 8% melee hit, (that's what we aim for), after that comes Virulence, Misery, raid buffs, Draenei, etc. That's how we reach spell hit cap in raids. Rather simple.
Those 3 points can finish off BA...and then where? Dark Conviction? I'd much rather have a move that doesn't miss.
Now - on track: KM change got me thinking, it's 5PPM at 5/5, meaning we no longer need a Fast OH. We have nothing that procs from our OH to my knowledge. Which means, it may be possible to go Slow/Slow to see what kind of TPS that generates, too.
To the guy that said "Why even spec it?" - we're going to test if it's more TPS. If you've ready any of the thread, you'd see that's what we're stressing, not for increased mitigation.
To the guy that said "Why even spec it?" - we're going to test if it's more TPS. If you've ready any of the thread, you'd see that's what we're stressing, not for increased mitigation.
But my point was that previously due to how poor deep Frost was for 2H tanking and the general threat output of Unholy, DWing was quite possibly the best threat playstyle.
Now however, 2Hing is taking advantage of huge Frost Strikes, even higher threat Rune Strikes and a very high proc chance of KM. They basically gave 2H all the advantages that Frost specs were giving DW tanks, minus some ppm on KM (until we see how they handle this anyway) except 2H has much bigger Blood Strikes, Frost Strikes, Rune Strikes and on single target fights, Obliterate can be used.
You mean 3 points from virulence? I would max out BA then 2 points in morbidity (I love morbidity if you haven't noticed lol)
I will have very little reason for weaving DnD in to my rotation unless it *is* still superior. In which, I will be trying it anyways.
Originally Posted by Harmann
Blah blah blah
The only two changes were Rune Strike - less damage but more threat, and KM - PPM over % of crits per min.
That's it. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Frost Strike was changed and anything Deep Frost was changed - it wasn't. It's been the same and always worth it. Another thing with people not speccing Frost now is the cd on HB - it's much harder to AoE Aggro, that's why people tend to steer clear of the spec right now.
Every single person in here understand that using a 2H will equal more damage on single strikes. Let us test DW after patch for TPS then we'll let you know what happens.
I will have very little reason for weaving DnD in to my rotation unless it *is* still superior. In which, I will be trying it anyways.
I pick it up so that DnD won't be on CD for the next pull, I don't use it more than once per pull (unless things get ugly) and like I said its for faster heroics/raid pulls since not opening with DnD would make your group wait for you to get that KM'd HB off before dpsing.
I pick it up so that DnD won't be on CD for the next pull, I don't use it more than once per pull (unless things get ugly) and like I said its for faster heroics/raid pulls since not opening with DnD would make your group wait for you to get that KM'd HB off before dpsing.
30s CD is a LOOONG wait.
Why are you waiting for a KM'd HB? As of right now, our DPS waits 2-5 seconds (depending on if I say "don't dps yet"), that's plenty of time for us to get IT off (while running to the group) -> Pest -> HB, Blood Tap, HB. It's going to be trickier for the first few days of speccing Frost for most people, I think. As of right now, DnD -> IT-PS-Pest-UB is like industrial super glue that takes no account of positioning.
This is likely while I'll be super caffeinated for the first few raids, so our ranged doesn't get teabagged by a mob. Unless it's our spriest. I'll let that one slide. *laughs*
I will have very little reason for weaving DnD in to my rotation unless it *is* still superior. In which, I will be trying it anyways.
The only two changes were Rune Strike - less damage but more threat, and KM - PPM over % of crits per min.
That's it. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Frost Strike was changed and anything Deep Frost was changed - it wasn't. It's been the same and always worth it. Another thing with people not speccing Frost now is the cd on HB - it's much harder to AoE Aggro, that's why people tend to steer clear of the spec right now.
Every single person in here understand that using a 2H will equal more damage on single strikes. Let us test DW after patch for TPS then we'll let you know what happens.
My point is that deep Frost wasn't terribly attractive to a 2H tank. Guile of Gorefiend when you have ~10-15% crit isn't really worth speccing all the way down Frost for and neither was Killing Machine. Unbreakable Armor was always nice, but the stuff you'd pick up along with it really wasn't worth it when considering that you could have Scourge Strike and Bone Shield with Rage of Rivendare being a clone of Tundra Stalker.
Now that Killing Machine will be giving far more HB, IT, FS crits than it would have for a tank, Guile of Gorefiend becomes far better and the entire Frost tree has more synergy and is more cohesive for a 2H tank.
In regards to GoG... people who claim it isn't attractive to tanks seem to be overlooking the fact that adds 6 seconds to IBF. That's actually pretty huge, especially when you consider UA and trinkets. With the 4 piece T7 bonus you have 21 seconds of IBF uptime, then 20 seconds from UA, then 10-20 seconds from trinkets. Depending on trinket choice you can have indefinite mitigation/avoidance buffs with 0 downtime.
IBF, at 21 seconds UA, after 20 seconds trinket A, after 20 seconds IBF, after 20 seconds UA, after 20 seconds trinket B, repeat.
The 3% miss from frost is also rather large.
And when things get real bad, lich. In 25 man gear having 100% avoidance for 20 seconds is rather easy to come by and can make the difference between killing someone with most of your raid dead or wiping.
Deep frost has always been an attractive MT spec. However for OT the lack of AE threat has been an issue until the removal of the HB CD. As nice as bone shield is - the main benefit of unholy has always been the improved AE threat. In terms of total mitigation and avoidance, frost has always been better.
Why are you waiting for a KM'd HB? As of right now, our DPS waits 2-5 seconds (depending on if I say "don't dps yet"), that's plenty of time for us to get IT off (while running to the group) -> Pest -> HB, Blood Tap, HB. It's going to be trickier for the first few days of speccing Frost for most people, I think. As of right now, DnD -> IT-PS-Pest-UB is like industrial super glue that takes no account of positioning.
This is likely while I'll be super caffeinated for the first few raids, so our ranged doesn't get teabagged by a mob. Unless it's our spriest. I'll let that one slide. *laughs*
These days DnD is a signal to spam 'insert AOE' to top dps, relying on spreading diseases is risky because sometimes they won't spread to some mobs that like to run back and cast when death grip is on CD.
It's a matter of preference I guess, morbidity just makes screw ups less likely.
I've been toying around on the ptr with a dual wield tanking build that looks like This.
I was wondering if people where still thinking of going dual wield to tank with the changes to killing machine really benefiting 2 hand tanking now.
I read on these forums that most people like obliterate for single mob threat, but I choose to use HB instead since I wanted to spend those 3 points in 1 hand spec. And I wont be hitting as hard with oblits with a 1hander.
Anyone have any suggestions or any experience with this type of build and/or 1 hand tanking?
01/09/09, 11:07 PM
Similar Threads
