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Old 01/10/09, 9:21 PM   #121
Zerath
Piston Honda
 
Zerath's Avatar
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Teme View Post
I pick it up so that DnD won't be on CD for the next pull, I don't use it more than once per pull (unless things get ugly) and like I said its for faster heroics/raid pulls since not opening with DnD would make your group wait for you to get that KM'd HB off before dpsing.

30s CD is a LOOONG wait.
Why are you waiting for a KM'd HB? As of right now, our DPS waits 2-5 seconds (depending on if I say "don't dps yet"), that's plenty of time for us to get IT off (while running to the group) -> Pest -> HB, Blood Tap, HB. It's going to be trickier for the first few days of speccing Frost for most people, I think. As of right now, DnD -> IT-PS-Pest-UB is like industrial super glue that takes no account of positioning.

This is likely while I'll be super caffeinated for the first few raids, so our ranged doesn't get teabagged by a mob. Unless it's our spriest. I'll let that one slide. *laughs*

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Old 01/11/09, 12:19 AM   #122
Harmann
Piston Honda
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Azjol-Nerub
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
I will have very little reason for weaving DnD in to my rotation unless it *is* still superior. In which, I will be trying it anyways.



The only two changes were Rune Strike - less damage but more threat, and KM - PPM over % of crits per min.

That's it. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Frost Strike was changed and anything Deep Frost was changed - it wasn't. It's been the same and always worth it. Another thing with people not speccing Frost now is the cd on HB - it's much harder to AoE Aggro, that's why people tend to steer clear of the spec right now.

Every single person in here understand that using a 2H will equal more damage on single strikes. Let us test DW after patch for TPS then we'll let you know what happens.
My point is that deep Frost wasn't terribly attractive to a 2H tank. Guile of Gorefiend when you have ~10-15% crit isn't really worth speccing all the way down Frost for and neither was Killing Machine. Unbreakable Armor was always nice, but the stuff you'd pick up along with it really wasn't worth it when considering that you could have Scourge Strike and Bone Shield with Rage of Rivendare being a clone of Tundra Stalker.

Now that Killing Machine will be giving far more HB, IT, FS crits than it would have for a tank, Guile of Gorefiend becomes far better and the entire Frost tree has more synergy and is more cohesive for a 2H tank.

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Old 01/11/09, 1:31 AM   #123
Asari
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Dawnbringer
In regards to GoG... people who claim it isn't attractive to tanks seem to be overlooking the fact that adds 6 seconds to IBF. That's actually pretty huge, especially when you consider UA and trinkets. With the 4 piece T7 bonus you have 21 seconds of IBF uptime, then 20 seconds from UA, then 10-20 seconds from trinkets. Depending on trinket choice you can have indefinite mitigation/avoidance buffs with 0 downtime.

IBF, at 21 seconds UA, after 20 seconds trinket A, after 20 seconds IBF, after 20 seconds UA, after 20 seconds trinket B, repeat.

The 3% miss from frost is also rather large.

And when things get real bad, lich. In 25 man gear having 100% avoidance for 20 seconds is rather easy to come by and can make the difference between killing someone with most of your raid dead or wiping.


Deep frost has always been an attractive MT spec. However for OT the lack of AE threat has been an issue until the removal of the HB CD. As nice as bone shield is - the main benefit of unholy has always been the improved AE threat. In terms of total mitigation and avoidance, frost has always been better.

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Old 01/11/09, 1:33 AM   #124
Teme
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
Why are you waiting for a KM'd HB? As of right now, our DPS waits 2-5 seconds (depending on if I say "don't dps yet"), that's plenty of time for us to get IT off (while running to the group) -> Pest -> HB, Blood Tap, HB. It's going to be trickier for the first few days of speccing Frost for most people, I think. As of right now, DnD -> IT-PS-Pest-UB is like industrial super glue that takes no account of positioning.

This is likely while I'll be super caffeinated for the first few raids, so our ranged doesn't get teabagged by a mob. Unless it's our spriest. I'll let that one slide. *laughs*
These days DnD is a signal to spam 'insert AOE' to top dps, relying on spreading diseases is risky because sometimes they won't spread to some mobs that like to run back and cast when death grip is on CD.

It's a matter of preference I guess, morbidity just makes screw ups less likely.

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Old 01/11/09, 5:29 AM   #125
Durzil
Von Kaiser
 
Durzil's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Azgalor
I've been toying around on the ptr with a dual wield tanking build that looks like This.

I was wondering if people where still thinking of going dual wield to tank with the changes to killing machine really benefiting 2 hand tanking now.

I read on these forums that most people like obliterate for single mob threat, but I choose to use HB instead since I wanted to spend those 3 points in 1 hand spec. And I wont be hitting as hard with oblits with a 1hander.

Anyone have any suggestions or any experience with this type of build and/or 1 hand tanking?

Last edited by Durzil : 01/12/09 at 3:32 PM.

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Old 01/11/09, 5:44 AM   #126
Boombada
Glass Joe
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Torn View Post
I'd end up with something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (10/54/7)

Now the thing I'm always worried about is: Where's the difference to a 2H frost tank?
1.) We benefit more from KM than a 2H tank. (10 ppm vs. 5 ppm)
2.) Stacking mitigation is easier due to tanking weapons.

Anything else?
I have an almost identical build to this. I find deathchill is great for getting quick threat on AoE pulls. However; I main tank a lot so I took the point out of deathchill and the points out of rime(which will be 3/3 after patch) and put the remaining four into Dark conviction. I did it to help with KM procs pre 3.0.8.

I guess what I am trying to ask: I will have one point left over after patch. Is Deathchill's dmg, with 2 minute cooldown, equal to or greater than 1 point in Dark conviction(1% crit) on a 25 man boss?

Again, my spec will be exactly the same as the one above with a question mark over the point in Deathchill.

Last edited by Boombada : 01/11/09 at 6:00 AM.

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Old 01/11/09, 10:14 AM   #127
Teme
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Barthilas
Dark conviction will become useless for a KM build since its based on chance on hit and not crit, so yes, deathchill will be worth picking up.

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Old 01/11/09, 3:28 PM   #128
Boombada
Glass Joe
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Teme View Post
Dark conviction will become useless for a KM build since its based on chance on hit and not crit, so yes, deathchill will be worth picking up.
Putting the point in DC would have nothing to do with KM. I am wondering which one does greater tps/dps. Is a 2minute crit better than one percent crit overall? I will test it next week but I was wonderring if anyone had already done the math.

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Old 01/11/09, 3:47 PM   #129
Zerath
Piston Honda
 
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Worgen Death Knight
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Boombada View Post
Putting the point in DC would have nothing to do with KM. I am wondering which one does greater tps/dps. Is a 2minute crit better than one percent crit overall? I will test it next week but I was wonderring if anyone had already done the math.
The point from Deathchill should go in to Lichborne, honestly. Otherwise than that, that's almost identical to my first build I'll be trying sans BA will be 4/5 and Virulence will be 3/3 (but, I plan on dropping any gems with Expertise and go +hit/+stam) in those sockets - so, we'll see what that turns out to be.

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Old 01/11/09, 4:50 PM   #130
Ilmatar
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Feathermoon
Originally Posted by Boombada View Post
I am wondering which one does greater tps/dps. Is a 2minute crit better than one percent crit overall?.
In your estimations, keep in mind the effect on white damage. Dual wield, even as a tank, will put white damage as your #2 source of damage, most likely. (Mine is usually: HB, White, RS/IT, FS)

Last edited by Ilmatar : 01/11/09 at 4:53 PM. Reason: Added quote

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Old 01/11/09, 5:30 PM   #131
Soulsbane
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Trollbane
The point of Deathchill isn't "one crit" as it can be used for Howling Blast, which in a multi-target situation amounts to a great many crits. Every two minutes, Howling Blast can crit on every target within range.

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Old 01/11/09, 5:48 PM   #132
Boombada
Glass Joe
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Soulsbane View Post
The point of Deathchill isn't "one crit" as it can be used for Howling Blast, which in a multi-target situation amounts to a great many crits. Every two minutes, Howling Blast can crit on every target within range.
My first post is in regards to main tanking situations so the multi-target aspect of deathchill is irrelevent.

As for putting the point in lichborne; no need for another "oh shit" button, as DW we need more threat and more dps. I think that the one percent crit is probably better in the long run than a 2 min cooldown crit. If 1% crit means you are going to crit 1/100 hits(not just melee) and you are going to have more than 100 hits every 2 minutes, then 1% in DC would be greater than deathchill. I tend to shy away from "situational" talents and deathchill kind of looks like it is not as viable as DC.

edit*100+ hits every 2 minutes sounds right but I don't know if it is accurate. I apologize if it isn't.

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Old 01/11/09, 6:22 PM   #133
Crax
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Death Knight
 
Alleria
Originally Posted by Boombada View Post
My first post is in regards to main tanking situations so the multi-target aspect of deathchill is irrelevent.

As for putting the point in lichborne; no need for another "oh shit" button, as DW we need more threat and more dps. I think that the one percent crit is probably better in the long run than a 2 min cooldown crit. If 1% crit means you are going to crit 1/100 hits(not just melee) and you are going to have more than 100 hits every 2 minutes, then 1% in DC would be greater than deathchill. I tend to shy away from "situational" talents and deathchill kind of looks like it is not as viable as DC.

edit*100+ hits every 2 minutes sounds right but I don't know if it is accurate. I apologize if it isn't.
For DW (the subject of this thread), it's probably not far off. Let's take a "best case" type scenario: 2.0 speed MH and 1.0 speed OH (hasted, obviously). In that 2 minutes, you'll have 60 MH attacks, 120 OH attacks. We'll approximate to 6 "non-white" attacks per rotation (assume two FS/DCs). Assuming 10 seconds per rotation (allowing for a bit of lag/human error - and making the napkin math easy), gives us another 72 attacks per two minutes.

Now, I'd be inclined to discount the OH attacks, since they'll be pretty measly crits, but even doing that leaves us around 132 attacks per 2 minutes. If you truly don't care about the Deathchill/HB AoE effect, then the 1% crit from Dark Conviction probably *is* better.

Now, for 2H, this comparison would be completely different... but that's for a different thread. ;-)

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Old 01/11/09, 6:35 PM   #134
Teme
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Boombada View Post
Putting the point in DC would have nothing to do with KM. I am wondering which one does greater tps/dps. Is a 2minute crit better than one percent crit overall? I will test it next week but I was wonderring if anyone had already done the math.
Well for tanking a guaranteed crit WHENEVER you want it is much more valuable than 1% crit chance, because in the end its just RNG at work here, having 5% more crit may not give you that crit when u need it.

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Old 01/11/09, 9:12 PM   #135
Lohegrin
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Deathchill is nice for snap aggro on demand in pulls and such too.

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