75% damage reduction against a lvl 83 boss would require 49,905 armor. Your gear seems excellent but I can't believe one can hit the armor cap that early.
Let's check: Frost Presence is a 80% modifier, Inspiration a 25% modfier and Toughness a 15% modifier.
16,716 base armor taken from the armory * 1.8 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 43,252 armor
Edit: That's without Unbreakable Armor which gives additional 25%. Including that modifier one easily reaches armor values above the armor cap. Holy moly, you are right!
27.659 armor with frost presence. 64.49% reduction
34.574 armor with unbreakable armor. 69.42% reducion
38.723 armor with glyphed UA. If i remember well, this gave me ~72% reduction.
+3% reduction at the expense of 1 glyph is not enough for me. I opted for a threat improve ... really repends on what you need.
27.659 armor with frost presence. 64.49% reduction
34.574 armor with unbreakable armor. 69.42% reducion
38.723 armor with glyphed UA. If i remember well, this gave me ~72% reduction.
The tooltip only indicates the damage reduction against lvl 80 mobs. To reach 72% damage reduction you'd want more than 40k armor. Still, you're right about the armor cap: The priest buff (Inspiration -> 25%) would push you over the cap.
27.659 armor with frost presence. 64.49% reduction
34.574 armor with unbreakable armor. 69.42% reducion
38.723 armor with glyphed UA. If i remember well, this gave me ~72% reduction.
+3% reduction at the expense of 1 glyph is not enough for me. I opted for a threat improve ... really repends on what you need.
30.5% - 28.0% = 2.5%
2.5% / 30.5% = 0.081 = 8.1% reduction in damage taken.
Generally I would say it's not worth taking the UA glyph if you have a priest or shaman healer regularly due to inspiration/ancestral fort. Without those healers though, the glyph is very useful for mitigation.
Ilmatar's report is useful in two ways:
1. To see where RP is best spent in order to generate threat; and
2. To see the contribution towards threat that BoSanc provides.
Total runic power used:
89 Rune Strikes = 1780 RP
45 Frost Strikes = 1800 RP (1440 with glyph)
Total generated:
BoSanc = 3100
Glyph of IT = 410
Replenish = 48
Blood Tap = 30
PS = 90
BS = 100
IT = 410 + 205
HB = 465 + 155
Total generated normally: 1913
Total generated: 5120
This means with without BoSanc you need to remove 1663 RP worth of RS or FS:
- Remove FS: 1663 / 40 = 41 FS
- Remove RS: 1663 / 20 = 83 RS
- Remove FS (glyph) + RS: 1663-1440 = 223 ; 223 / 20 = 11 ; 45 FS + 11 RS.
Average FS threat generated is 3049, average RS threat gen is 4362. Removing RS will still cause a normal strike at approximately 42% of the threat of a RS (removing 225% threat bonus plus a bit for potential parrys/dodges) = ~1832.
1.
Skill
Cost
Average threat/RP
FS
3049 / 40
76.225
FS (Glyph)
3049 / 32
95.3
RS
(4362 - 1832) / 20
126.5
Rune Strike ignores the effect of parry/dodge on normal attacks too, which would increase its value.
2.
Skill
Lost threat:
Remove FS
125009
Remove RS
209990
Remove FS (Glyph) + RS
165035
Clearly in an RP starved situation RP should always be used on RS rather than other runic power dumps; it is also clear how important using RS is to total threat generation. Over this fight approximately 165k threat would've been lost had Ilmatar not had BoSanc (assuming frost strike with glyph, as stated). This is almost 15% of total threat, bringing total TPS down to approximately 3.5k. This is with a fast weapon MH however; with a slow weapon in MH the number of RS's required would've dropped by ~2/5ths, significantly reducing the value of BoSanc.
30.5% - 28.0% = 2.5%
2.5% / 30.5% = 0.081 = 8.1% reduction in damage taken.
Generally I would say it's not worth taking the UA glyph if you have a priest or shaman healer regularly due to inspiration/ancestral fort. Without those healers though, the glyph is very useful for mitigation.
i run with a shaman / priest/ pally healers .. so in heavy dmg fights, when they are also healing me, the armor buff is almost always up. And as i mentioned before, despite how much %dmg reduction the glyph will provide in a raid situation, i really don't need the extra mitigation now. The only fight where theres a "real" chance that i die, is malygos. But even this fight, after getting frost aura + acclimation, his arcane dmg usually is reduced by 30-40% ...
About Ilmatar's report:
I never have BoSanc available in 10 mans, and i noticed in the few runs i had, where you can spam every possible runedump and you'll never ever be RP starved. I tend to leave my RP to RS, only using in frost strikes if my RP is > 50.
With fast mh, Bosanc is a dream ... I had a fight with 72 dodge/parries and 71 RS uses. I even considered asking our paladin healer to go 40/21 to get it.
As i notice hungering cold does AoE "stun" and infects all mobs with Frost fever. Then we have Deathchill that makes IT, Frost strike and Howling blast crits if used inside 30 sec and then use Hoowling blast.
So Start of rotation would be Horn of WInter> IT>Hungering Cold>PS>BS>BS>Deathcill>Howling Blast and that would give me exelent starting threat on trash packs. Or im misscalculating something.
Few more questions, i read most of threads here but some or outdated with patch or not answering or even get me even more confused really.
I know that DKs most threat or TPS comes from DPS thats why most people stack STR gems in gear.
But what is considered some optimum point at wich you can start tanking in Naxx 10 man.
540 is some sort of DEF SOft cap at wich point you get uncritable.
But is it worth it to stack more Def (from items not gems or enchants) when you pass 540 or go for items with crit-str.
What would be good parry dodge rating or percentage to aim for tanking 20-25%?
Expertise cap is 6.5% and hit cap is 9% for Specials and spells but considering its DW tanking should i aim for more then 9% to hit?
As i notice hungering cold does AoE "stun" and infects all mobs with Frost fever. Then we have Deathchill that makes IT, Frost strike and Howling blast crits if used inside 30 sec and then use Hoowling blast.
So Start of rotation would be Horn of WInter> IT>Hungering Cold>PS>BS>BS>Deathcill>Howling Blast and that would give me exelent starting threat on trash packs. Or im misscalculating something.
Because Pestilence puts both Frost fever and Blood Plague on all targets already. IT>PS>Pest> and now you have what you wanted with Hungering Cold, but with additional threat from your other disease. It's not like you're losing much from missing a blood strike initially.
Edit -- Sorry about the mispost earlier, here is a TPS report from 25 Naxx tonight. I tanked Loatheb for our Guild run. Jxy produced 4227 tps vs Loatheb
I would say this is normal TPS for me on a boss fight. Typically, I use this rotation: DnD > IT > PS > Pestilence > BS > SS > SS > SS, and I fill in the blanks with RS when I can give up the RP (and I'll dump RP when SS isn't up on DC if I have more than 60 RP).
I am using the IT, Bone Shield, and DnD Glyphs right now.
My research is for one thing in particular: "How much +Hit should a DW Tank have?" I have noticed HUGE gains in TPS as I moved closer to 8%. From just auto-attacks alone, I can sit at an easy 1.5-2K TPS (tested on Trash over and over)...
If anyone has anything to report on Hit rating and it's gains, that would be great. I will contribute what I can as well.
I would also appreciate any questions or critiques about spec, gear, or Glyph choices as I am trying improve my tanking for future Uldaar progression ASAP.
Thought I'd share some results. I've been using and tweeking a deep-frost DW tank build (Armory). Glyphs: IT, UA, FS
Here is a threat report from Patchwerk-10 on Friday: TPS Report 4.2k tps
I did this with Red Sword of Courage w/ Swordbreaking. Since there was no parry-haste and I'd rather have more avoidance on Patchy.
I don't use a strict rotation, my priorities are:
HB > IT > FS > BS (as long as blood runes are down) > PS
For a Killing Machine proc with a slow MH: HB > FS > IT
Thanks again for sharing your results. I have a very similar talent build but my gear is not as good as yours.
As you can see in my report (Patchwerk-10) my TPS output was something like 2.7k TPS. Obviously, I must have done something wrong. I don't think gear alone can be responsible for such a gap. The first difference I noticed is that Rune Strike does not appear in my tps report. I macrod it with IT. Is that not possible any more? I'll try activating it manually next time to see the difference.
Thanks again for sharing your results. I have a very similar talent build but my gear is not as good as yours.
As you can see in my report (Patchwerk-10) my TPS output was something like 2.7k TPS. Obviously, I must have done something wrong. I don't think gear alone can be responsible for such a gap. The first difference I noticed is that Rune Strike does not appear in my tps report. I macrod it with IT. Is that not possible any more? I'll try activating it manually next time to see the difference.
i believe its more about your rotation.
Considering you have a similar build as the one i use, swap Epidemic with Virulence, and grab 1pt from something else, and have 3/3 in Virulence.
You don't need 17% of course, since there are several +% hit from other sources in raids, but try to raise your hit rating to somewhere between 250-300. Your misses will drop a lot, and you'll see a nice dps/threat improve.
The %s of your dps are kinda messed. Usually, HB should be 1st, followed by IT and melee. You are also using too much frost strikes.
My sugestions are:
- raise your hit a bit.
- try a rotation like this:
IT > HB > PS > BS > BS. 1st rotation
IT > HB > IT > FS > HB. In the 2nd, HB is the priority, just keep frost fever up, use HB and fill the 5 seg gap with another IT and Frost strikes if you have RP available , then use HB again. The key is to max HB uses. Blood plague dropping or BS hitting with only 1 disease is not a big problem, as long as Frost fever is always up and HB is used whenever its available. Even if that means waiting 1-2 seconds doing nothing.
- and macro rune strike on every ability. Not only IT.
/cast Howling Blast
/cast Rune Strike
/cast Plague Strike
/cast Rune Strike and so on .. even my Frost strike/deathcoil macro have a Rune strike attached.
Thanks for your suggestions. My low hit chance is indeed a problem.
As for my rotation: I use the rotation you mentioned - but I tend to spam more FS. This might have something to do that my RS macros didn't work and so I had to use FS as the only RP dump. I'll check that.
I have RS macro'd to every ability, even Frost Strike, and always run with a Prot Pally, so I am usually never starved or out of RP. I do not use Plague Strike in my rotations unless I have nothing better to do with the GCD, and I am sure another Unholy will become available when I have a Frost to HB. I frequently just leave an Unholy rune up so I can hit HB as soon as a Blood/Frost rune comes up.
For RS macros, I forget where I saw this but:
#showtooltip
/cast Icy Touch
/cast !Rune Strike
The '!' modifier on the Rune Strike makes sure that it won't toggle off RS. So like, if you went IT-IT, the first IT may enable RS, and the second may disable RS.
I have had no problems with frost so far, going to star to monitor my TPS tho, but was JW if anyone else has actually tested the other trees for DWing ((I want to test one tonight for 25mans))
I have had no problems with frost so far, going to star to monitor my TPS tho, but was JW if anyone else has actually tested the other trees for DWing ((I want to test one tonight for 25mans))
The main problem with blood or unholy dw is that you'll have to use Heart or Scourge strike. And they suck with dw. Frost you are more like a spellcaster in plate.
Originally Posted by Jeisa
I find it interesting that your threat went from the 3000s to the 5000s. What did you do differently?
patchwerk is more like a benchmark test. 5k TPS is my "threat cap" with my current gear, in 10mans. I didn't even look at him during the fight, i only looked at my runes and my howling blast icon to see the cooldown. I had crit strings that pushed my tps to over 6.5k. But it's a fight where i dont have to pay attention to anything else .... just hit him.
here are some other reports i recorded yesterday. Almost all those fights i have to pay attention to the enviroment, be ready to react is something happens, move around and so... In those fights i kinda turn my "autopilot" on, and only check my runes, cooldowns and omen to make sure my tps is ok. So i often miss a HB (use the runes with something else) or use it after 2-3 seconds of being up. I dont try to push my limit every single fight. I just make sure my dpsers have enough room to dps without worring with threat, and then i focus on the encounter.
As you said, my tps usually is between 3-4k depending on fight mechanics.
might work quite well .. but you'll give up some benefits of deep frost (imp IBF, a few expertise).Impurity might give it a good threat boost, but i'd trade BCB for Virulence.
The main problem with blood or unholy dw is that you'll have to use Heart or Scourge strike. And they suck with dw. Frost you are more like a spellcaster in plate.
I disagree with you about SS. It's unmitigated Shadow damage, and can critically hit for over 4,000 damage now (Sigil of Awareness and 2/2 in Vicious Strikes).
In raids where I have a feral Druid or a fury Warrior, my critical strike rating is over 20%. +9% more from 2/2 in Vicious Strikes (i.e. - SS crits a LOT).
Originally Posted by eflow
patchwerk is more like a benchmark test. 5k TPS is my "threat cap" with my current gear, in 10mans. I didn't even look at him during the fight, i only looked at my runes and my howling blast icon to see the cooldown. I had crit strings that pushed my tps to over 6.5k. But it's a fight where i dont have to pay attention to anything else .... just hit him.
Good response. I'll get my TPS report on him up ASAP.
Well, I tankd 25man naxx 2night as blood (47/14/10) and my Guild Leader, a Holy Paladin...told me to stay blood because I was able to tank alot better than I did as frost.
Only prob i need (no matter what spec) is getting enough +hit and expertise to help with threat (I did not have a problem with threat)
I didnt do any TPS saving, like I should of... but ya.
Also have a question, if anyone knows, would I be better off spamming Heart Strike, or encluding obliterate in my rotation? ((saves myself 3 pnts into frost for annihilation))
If you tank as DW Blood, wouldn't Bloodworms actually contribute a non-trivial amount of healing given the substantially increased procchance?
Gonna try out relative healing over a large body of time later.
2 things i would like to note on this.
Firstly that any aoe effects will quickly kill off the bloodworms and secondly the amount of healing. While the amount of healing done over an entire fight might be meaningfull it will help little with tank deaths. The amount of healing done in between 2 hits pales in comparison to the hits themselves.
I have RS macro'd to every ability, even Frost Strike, and always run with a Prot Pally, so I am usually never starved or out of RP. I do not use Plague Strike in my rotations unless I have nothing better to do with the GCD, and I am sure another Unholy will become available when I have a Frost to HB. I frequently just leave an Unholy rune up so I can hit HB as soon as a Blood/Frost rune comes up.
For RS macros, I forget where I saw this but:
#showtooltip
/cast Icy Touch
/cast !Rune Strike
The '!' modifier on the Rune Strike makes sure that it won't toggle off RS. So like, if you went IT-IT, the first IT may enable RS, and the second may disable RS.
That definitely helped a lot.
In Naxx-10 - with the same group - my TPS went up by 1000 just by using these RS macros and 2/3 Virulence.
01/27/09, 2:54 AM
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