What kind of results are you getting with this?

I have been having a lot of luck with a variation on the 0/13/58 - http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...2&version=9767 - scourge strike build with 4pc t7 using SS to fuel DC in a DC priority system. Some might want to move the points out of GF and IUP to fill up desecration, but i wanted to try out those talents so i went the way i did. I ran several DPS tests on the day before patch on live(32/39), and several identical tests on tuesday night after the patch(13/58), and after some tweaking and learning the spec i am pulling the same if not better numbers than I was before. I switched to a slow/fast setup and was getting similar numbers possibly better -even though my slow MH is 13+ less dps. If i can get the new slow MH sword off razorscale i should go up significantly.

I changed glyphs to ghoul, ss, and dark death and picked up the awareness sigil. Other than that gear was the same. I am in mostly 10man naxx gear with a few 25man pieces, and was hitting around 2600 dps on the EH dummy at 1hp both before and after the patch. I don't know if that is considered good dps for my gear lvl, but i generally come in top3 in dps in raids. I don't know how scientific my tests were, but i am pretty happy with the new spec even though i am missing HB pretty bad atm.

Three Questions:

Why are ppl going with BS over BB?

Why are ppl using OB instead of a SS spam?

and on single target bosses why would you use UB at all over DC?

my build is 0/10/61

The World of Warcraft Armory

build doesnt show my one point UB for some reason

and I use the rotation of

PS>IT>SS>BB>BB>then as many SS I can get in thereafter while diseases are up..refresh diseases then rinse and repeat.

BB no longer creates Death Runes.

It has been stated in the thread for why people choose OB over SS and under what conditions.

I prefer not to use UB but UB can be better depending on spec and Latency/you use it once and it stays for 20 secs...

1) BS is used because Blood Boil no longer generates Death Runes. Using Blood Strike allows higher damage attacks and more rune power to be created. Blood Boil can be used. It's fast and does decent damage but it's light on the runic power. Since Death Coil is the most powerful spell we got, it makes sense if GCDs are available to use more of them for Death Coil.

2) A simple search of this thread would give the answer but I'll repeat it. Obliterate scales better than Scourge Strike once you get enough Armor Penetration. Use of Obliterate turns Armor Penetration from a bad stat to a good stat by increasing the physical damage % of your total DPS. Obliterate not only does more damage but also generates more runic power. Overall it's a damage increase once Armor Penetration reaches an EP level higher than Critical Rating or Expertise.

3) Unholy Blight scales better if all ticks hit the target. Keep in mind, Crypt Fever still treats it as a disease so it gets the 30% from Crypt Fever. It takes critical percentages in the 60s for Death Coil to exceed Unholy Blight. The reason that it sims a slight decrease is that it uses a talent point that could generate more DPS in a different location. The reason to take Unholy Blight is AoE. If you have it though, you should use it even on single targets.

@Muggle: That's not his DPS build. A casual look would show 5/5 Toughness which should tell you everything you need to know.

@Resurge: Glad to hear your DPS hasn't suffered from the patch. Are you using all of your GCDs or do you have dead time?

Thanks for clearing that up..

so what would you recommend as a rotation with BS?

PS>IT>SS>BS>BS>then SS or DC when its up?

edit: I should be in blood presence correct?

Using a 0/17/54 build http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9757 I was handing out solid dps in our 10 man ulduar tonight. Cleared 5.6k on Deconstructor (but there is a bonus while on the heart).

Priority rotation from Kithus for DC spam: Blood Tap > UB > DC > Diseases > IT > PS > BS
Need to Know mod for tracking UB and Ghoul Frenzy, which is kept at as close to 100% uptime as possible.
Slow/Fast with FC/RI for runeforges were used.

"@Resurge: Glad to hear your DPS hasn't suffered from the patch. Are you using all of your GCDs or do you have dead time?"


I am not noticing much dead time, but i do tend to get a little button happy sometimes . With the random nature of SS glyph, i have noticed my diseases trying to drop sometimes when i don't have the runes to put em back up yet, but that's probably more me getting used to the playstyle than anything else. The build generates so much RP, that most of the dead time i am used to from a deep unholy/ss build seems to be used up by the extra death coils/UB. I have been using blood presence so far ..is that correct with this build, or would IUP be better? ..i took it for the movement speed, but haven't tried actually using the presence to DPS ..i imagine i would have some dead time using it tho.

I think IUP is a waste of points if you aren't going into UP to get the faster rune CD from the talent.

This is my test for DW unholy and 2H unholy

rotation:
IT>PS>SS>BS>BS>UB>DC
IT>PS>SS>IT>IT>DC>DC>DC (or SG if US proc or other AP procs)

Both using IT, Dark Death, Plague Strike Glyphs.

For DW, the spec is 14|57 using fast/fast (Widow's Fury), the DPS is 2.415k~2.430k dps, the SS was taken b4 the DPS hit 2.430k lol.


For 2H, the spec is 11|60 using Claymore of The Ancient. The highest DPS I reached is...

I forgot to look at the skill outputs before resetting recount...

So I guess if I put on Death's Bite for 2H, the DPS would increase a lot.

----

I also tried using Scourge Strike Glyph and do

IT>PS>SS>BS>BS>UB + DC if I get enough RP
SS>SS>SS>DC>DC>DC or SG if AP proc

It seems to work well on either one, but mainly 2H. However, even though it does like ~6k dps on crit (and it critted quite often when I tested) I have a longer GCD while waiting to do the next SS and RP wasn't generating as fast as the other rotation as well. I couldn't get the dps to pass the one I got from above for 2H.

-----

I guess imma hold back on DW til there is a good one..

I've been having success as 0/10/61 2h unholy build with jawbone and other subpar gear, pulled 5100 on XT tonight. Was wondering if switching up 3 points from Necrosis to Annihilation would be better just for the melee crit?

Can we get a rotation?

ps it ss bs bs rp dump
ss ss ss rp dump

Refresh diseases whenever Glyph of Scourge Strike fails to reapply them, and keep Unholy Blight up at all times.

I could not really find a way to consistently fit GF into my rotation without screwing it up / paying too much attention to it to try and keep it up and not screw up my rotation, so I just said to hell with it. My DPS went up substantially when I did this but I reckon that if you can fit it in there somewhere it'd help.

So I am looking at these threads and am awaiting the final verdict? New to the ej.com scene, but from what i've gathered the 13/58 build as a DW DK seems viable DPS. Read all the contingencies, but have yet to understand a working Rotation and Glyph combo the thread is across the board with variables and no real explanation detail, except for the rotation including OB; however, I see a spec 13/58 focusing glyphs on SS UB and Ghoul... AM I LOST!!!! Some clarity please, whats the rotation for a decent DW DPS build and damn Blizzard to hell for confusing the *&(* out of me with this 3.1 mace to the head. Thanks in advance.

-Mousse

Servers were finally stable enough to get a full raid in, so got a chance to see in real-raid situation how 'nerfed' unholy dw dps had become... In mostly BiS or 2nd best gear, dual LL, FC/FC. In 3.0.9, was pulling ~5.5k, so I would have been happy to pull ~5k today.

Spec & glyphs are 0/18/53 with DC, IT, & Ghoul glyphs.

WWS unfortunately doesn't correctly parse Ulduar bosses yet, but I found myself doing ~5.5k on Deconstructor. Now mechanics of the fight does inflate dps, but overall I kept neck in neck with the other melee in the raid (2x rog + 2h frost dk). I suspect that on a straight burn fight, I would be pulling just shy of 5k. Overall dps breakdown between abilities seemed to be similiar to 3.0.9 - about 1/3 from melee, 1/3 from DC+IT, and 1/3 from assorted others (diseases, BS, UB, pets, etc.) the only difference being DC doing twice as much as IT.

I have a fairly poor system & connection, so I tend to do better with a rotation over a priority system. I came up with the following 3-cycle rotation based on being in IUP. It's obviously does not squeeze out the best theoretical dps as a priority system, and it has flaws in UB/GF uptimes (overwrites 2s of UB, and has 83% GF uptime) but it makes use of all the RPs you generate. At the end of each cycle I can usually only dump DC twice, which gives me a 1s 'breather' to make up for my lag, and works out to be a more practical system for me.

Cycle 1: IT PS GF IT BS BS DC-dump
Cycle 2: IT PS UB OB IT IT DC-dump
Cycle 3: IT PS HoW OB BS BS DC-dump

Pattern goes: Cycle1, Cycle2, Cycle3, Cycle2 over a 36s period. GF is up 30/36s, and 4s of UB is overwrriten.
Chose to use OB over SS for a few reasons. CotG gives OB 5 more RP, and combined with 4t7, gives it only 5 less RP than an IT+PS, while giving me an extra GCD. Obviously will need to revisit once I get 2t8.

Edit: Just realized that I wasn't even following my own rotation... The entire night I was using Cycle1, Cycle2, Cycle3, repeat. When I had tested on dummies earlier in the evening I was getting 2.6-2.7k, which about doubled in raid. Actually following my own advice and going C1,C2,C3,C2,repeat, I am getting 3k on dummies, which should translate into hopefully 6k in raid. Will find out next time we raid, and hopefully WWS'll be able to parse Ulduar bosses by then.

One thing I was considering is dropping to 1/5 Desecration and getting 2/5 Killing Machine. While IT has lost a tremendous amount of damage, I do end up casting just as many ITs as DCs. I've also got a decent amount of haste in my current gear and raid buffed my swing timer drops from 1.6 to 1s. By some very rough napkin math, 2/5 KM with that amount of swingtime reduction should give me ~3.2 ppm. My ITs are hitting for ~1.8k, which comes to ~96dps increase. Dropping from 3/5 Desecration to 1/5 Desecration @ 5.5k dps is a loss of ~106dps, so by this very crude math it would seem a slight loss, but it's offset by the fact that a dodged PS won't drop by dps until the next cycle comes and I'd be able to keep those 96dps during movement fights, whereas I might lose Desecration benefits.

I was looking for some clarification on this build, when you say, "You also need 4pc T7." Do you mean for that rotation as of now to make it work? And the Ulduar gear is what you should upgrade to when you can, to make it better?


Also, after seeing this i tried to make a SS build going off the main points of this spec and came up with, 0/13/58 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...5&version=9757 (Sorry dont know how yo condense that yet)


My Gear: Only thing different is my weapons, should be Silent Crusader and Fang of truth.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Blood Pres
Glyphs: Dark Death, Ghoul, IT
Runes, MH/Off Hand FC/Razorice(1st/2nd test) Razorice/Cinder(3rd/4th test)

PS>IT>SS>BS>BS>UB>(if not had more RP)DC dump
SS>SS>IT>IT>DC Dump

I try to get my Recount on later, but on the Dummy with 1 HP I ended up with
2.4-2.5k DPS (1st/2nd test)
2.2-2.6k DPS (3rd/4th test) Guessing lucky cinder proc's
I was thinking Necrosis and Wandering plague will up the damage some. Also, my trinkets aren't the best nor is my Off hand, so I'm betting that someone with Greatness or something will have better luck.

I'm not very good at this type of thing, but do you all think its viable? Sorry if my post is a bit messy, its my 1st post here, tried to keep things in order.

I'm wondering if we might not be able to pull ahead a slight amount by changing this around a bit. Per the above, we're dropping 15% DC damage in favor of the IT glyph as it provides enough additional RP in combination with Reaping to outweigh the DC glyph.

Using napkin math, the above rotation yields 215 RP three times a minute with an additional 10 once a minute from Bloodtap, totaling 655 RP or 16.375 DCs assuming enough haste to fit them all into a rotation. If we're generous we can toss two HoWs in there as you'd need enough haste for a full spell cast to the keep the rotation tight, bringing total RP gen to 675 or 16.875 DCs.

If, instead of Bloodtapping, we drop the IT glyph and pick the DC glyph back up, keep Reaping, use two BS consecutively to covert two simultaneous D runes and use those for an additional OB, and fill the remaining GCD with HoW twice a minute, I think we come out ahead. Napkin math there is 190 RP three times a minute plus 20 additional RP from HoW, totaling 590 RP or 14.75 DCs times 15% additional damage comes out to 16.963 effective DCs over fewer GCDs, allowing room for latency, error, and fight-related downtime. Without HoW complicating the rotation, we still end up with 16.386 effective DCs, which is roughly equal to the IT rotation. I would imagine OB vs. 2xIT even with RI up are comparable in damage with decent amounts of ArP.

This also doesn't include being able to go back to CG from RI on the OH rune as we'll only have one IT in the rotation instead of three.

Summary proposition:

Weapons: Slow (FC) and Fast OH (CG)

Major Glyphs: Ghoul, Obliterate, Dark Death

Current rotation: You need 4pc T7 and 10 RP.
PS -> IT -> OB -> BS -> BS -> DC Dump
OB -> OB -> OB -> DC Dump

Assumptions: 2xIT + RI damage ~= OB w/ 14% ArP damage

Strength compared to IT focused approach: Simpler to execute as you don't have to worry as much about RP capping. Somewhat less gear intensive. Higher damage and more burst.

Weakness compared to IT focused approach: Less flexibility at range.

Side note: Excellent job putting together a list of gear to pursue, makes life a lot easier for many folks knowing what to roll/bid on. However, I noted there's not a single point of expertise on any of the suggested pieces, leaving us with only the 5 we get from talents. With the vast majority of our damage and RP coming from strikes and white damage, shouldn't we consider working more towards the cap?

This sounds interesting, but my concern is that a 2h with the same thing, would be doing more damage. Aside from that, from what i've seen CG is a bad proc rate, and we would be using it on DC in hops of pretty large damage, correct
?

Also, with your idea here wouldn't it be more useful to use Sigil of Awareness, rather than the Sigil that ups Death Coil/FS damage by 308 or what ever it may be?

Though with this rotation, it would greatly decrease the value of Haste since you don't need to fit in so many GCDs. It would make it equal to giving haste in UP builds for DW which I have at an EP of 94 (With AP at 100)... That could be where we focus on getting Exp. Drop some Haste and replace it with some Exp.

@ Ananais: [Remorse]

There were so many requirements already. I wanted enough haste so I could do a 7 move rotation without severely going over the 10 second mark. With 358, the rotation is 10.2 seconds. I wanted at least 14% armor penetration so Obliterate would do enough damage. I need to get over the spell hit cap and since I was short, I used Blood of the Old God which also works well with Gargoyle. It put me over but not terribly and hit isn't a terrible stat with this setup. With all that though, I ran out of items. With only 29 expertise rating, I found the only way to get more expertise at this point was to replace a good trinket:

[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]

with one of lesser quality: [Mark of Norgannon]

which isn't a good idea.

It was also possible to gem for expertise to make up the gap. This also would trade Strength (strongest stat by far) for Expertise (weakest stat). So you can go for consistency (gem expertise to the cap) or power (gem strength).

If I remember my math correctly, one OB < 2 IT if you use a one-hander. While it does more than an Icy Touch, it's not that much more. Remember scaling of a 1-handed SS was virtually identical to Icy Touch. Even with all the nerfs, Icy Touch still has a lot of multipliers. The math is earlier in the thread.

I also had to take into account the new math on Armor Penetration.

Here is Ghostcrawler's math and words:

Computing the cap is a little tricky unless you are already familiar with how World of Warcraft armor works. There is an armor constant we’ll call C. C is derived as follows (in some pseudocode):

If (level<60)
C=400+85*targetlevel
Else
C=400+85*targetlevel+4.5*85*(targetlevel-59);

For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635.

The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3.

A level 80 warrior creature has 9729 armor. C=15232.5. So, the cap is (9729+15232.5)/3=8320.5. Let’s say a player has 30% armor penetration from armor penetration rating and no other modifiers that complicate the calculation (talents, Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, etc.). The game chooses the minimum of 8320.5 and 9729, so 8320.5. That is multiplied by 30% = 2496.15, and so that much armor is ignored. The effective armor on the target is 7232.85 (9729-2496.15). From a player point of view, the armor penetration rating didn’t ignore the full 30%, but instead ignored 25.66%. (85.5% as effective as expected).

Back to me: Boss Armor is 10643. Cap is (10643 + 16635)/3 is 9092. I get 276 Armor Penetration from the gear which is 17.92%. 9092 * 0.1792 = 1629 That amount is roughly 15.3% which is just above the break point.

If you don't mind losing some Armor Penetration, an option would be to cut [Strength of the Automaton]

for : [Bladebearer's Signet]

Gemming a couple +8 Str and + 8 Hit to get the Hit socket bonuses

would allow Blood of the Old God to be replaced by : [Mark of Norgannon]

but that would be a DPS loss if I'm not mistaken.

in the rotation somewhere, instead of using IT+PS could u not use pestilance (w/ glyph) to refresh the diseases (it also turns to death rune), and use the two runes for obli or ss.. i havn't tried this spec out yet, so i dont know if it+ps > x1 ss/obli

what is the main aim of these specs? like before we jus had IT spam.. from what i've read here some ppl jus use regular rotations with rp dump, and others seem to aim for as much RP as possible for some DC spam. is it worth keeping UB up and have it glyphed, so u get potientially get an extra DC in before u need to refresh it.

i came up with this spec:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

i skipped desc for other points, and left gf out for points in boosted plague strike, cuz when it crits, it crits pretty damn hard.. but maybe the gf is a better dps boost, i dont know..

any thoughts on this?

You aren't using the Disease glyph in your supposed build so you wouldn't be able to do that. The disease glyph is a Major glyph so we'd have to remove one of our current glyphs which will most likely reduce our DPS in both removing a glyph and the theorized rotation you give. Also, I posted why the DC glyph would be better than the UB glyph 2 pages ago. Please at least try to look for that stuff before posting. Why DC Glyph is better than the UB glyph for DW Builds.