I've been lurking these forums for quite some time and this is the first time I've ever had an idea that I haven't seen explored by the posters here. While this is a DW frost post, this seemed the best thread to post in.

At 3.1 I went from 32/39 to 0/20/51 and my dps on the boss lvl target dummy hovered at around 1850 during my tests while self-buffed, however, I may have been reading recount wrong and not including my ghoul's damage, but I find that unlikely.

I then tried my homebrew god-i-miss-howling-blast build 2-51-18 and pulled down close to 2kdps (totally unbuffed, not even horn of winter) while UNGLYPHED. Not the damage people were getting last patch, for sure, but i felt that it was worth further exploration.

my napkin math tells me to get glyphs of obliterate and dark death for sure, and then go with either disease or howling blast for the third.

My reasoning is that with howling blast, my rotation can just be:
HB->OB->BS->BS->dump
HB->OB->OB->dump

With an extra HB whenever Freezing Fog procs. And just completely ignore PS in favor of more oblits.

With Disease it would be

IT->PS->BS->HB->BS->dump
HB->OB->OB->dump
Pest->HB->OB->BS->dump

I think the timing is right to keep the first blood/death rune cooling down fast enough to keep diseases up.

I wonder if anyone else has tried this build out, or just has any input. While we all know DW is in a sorry state compared to what it was, and the HB nerf hurts like hell, I think this has some potential.

I have a Deathknight in my guild using a Duel Wield Howling Blast build and he gets no where near the DPS I get with 0/18/53. All target dummies have other dummies nearby so you're probably hit 2-3 targets instead of one. I might be wrong tho.

No, i'm definitely only hitting the one. I'm hitting the boss lvl dummy in the DK floating city...can't remember the damn name.

The biggest difference I'm noticing between the old HB build and this new one is now my white hits are the TOP of my recount, like...by a lot, and HB and Oblit are 2 and 3 on the list. Also, necrosis is only pulling about 0.4 of my dps, when I'd expect it to be closer to 2%. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I believe necrosis is bugged on the test dummies

If the boss dummy is at 0% health, Necrosis (and Wandering Plague) will only hit for 1 damage.

Guys I have been a long time reader of the DW threads pretty much since Wrath came out and the discussion began. During 3.08 I was using a 0/19/52 build with slow/fast weaps, self buffed at the dummy I was pulling 3k dps in UP keeping every rune on cool down and keeping all runic power spent. My best numbers on PW with this spec were 6k dps, on a 2:45 sec kill, flasked, speed pots during army and garg, and a 40 str food buff.

Since 3.1 I have revisited this spec while changing a couple things and I am still putting out 3k dps on the boss dummy. Improved Death Coil damage is making up for the nerfed IT. I just did a parse and was at 3.1k dps on the boss dummy in Ebon Hold self buffed with bone armor and horn, the dummy was at 1% so of course necrosis damage and wandering plague damage aren't included in this number.

There isn't really a rotation with this spec but here is how I start it out:
IT, PS, BS, Blood Tap, IT IT IT, DC Dump
After this point I am basically just keeping every rune on cool down as soon it comes up.

I like the play style because with the 7-8 sec cool downs on runes in IUP you are always spamming something. I also stack a lot of haste and see melee damage at around 25-30% of total damage, IT at 24-27%, 21-25% Death Coil damage.

If you guys are looking for a spec you guys should give it a look.

HI guyz,
long time reader, 1st post...
I came up with a dw skill which i got from some1 i knew from some forums. It is like 15/2/54.
Believe it or not, my bad is, that i am still using 2 fast weapons, no dropluck so far, but still, with this spec
i am pulling the best numbers dwing. Rotation starts as usual, it, ps and from then on as cd´s or rp are available. Using dc and ss as often as possible, sigil of awareness, dark death rune helps, evntly it rune as well. But as you all can see, no way to come near the numbers we were used to from former days with hb etc.
greetings

That is some SERIOUSLY useful information. Like...should be edited into first post useful. Which will make me feel kinda dumb if I just missed it.

I intend to put in further testing with the 2/51/18 build. I realized just now that with the dummy at 0% the whole time, i had nonstop merciless combat, which would further skew the numbers in frost's favor. I'm trying and failing to put together the napkin math from my glyphless rotations (still broke from buying dual-spec) with which to figure out the better of the two... HB or Pest.

On the one hand, HB allows for non-stop obliterates with death runes, and provides one additional blood strike per rotation. On the other hand, Pestilence allows for both FF and BF to be up, while allowing for the same number of oblits minus the initial PS/IT. Seeing as how BS doesn't hit all that hard with a 1hander, and the pest version will demand a tighter rotation, I'm inclined to believe that it is better than the HB glyph one.

You're probably gonna look at me funny for this, but I'm using slow/slow with dual angry dreads. For some reason it's giving me better numbers and more consistent razorice and CG procs than with maexxna's femur. I know, i know, crappy weapons. My assumption is that the enchants are based on PPM, and with a slower Offhand, the fact that it misses less times per minute makes it more likely to proc...or something. Terrible logic, i know, but when I switched from femur to angry dread #2, my Razorice almost completely stopped falling off.

Also, I'd start a new thread on this, but my forum privelages haven't unlocked yet. If anyone besides me feels this warrants enough discussion for its own thread, I'd happily relocate.

PS > IT > OB > BS > BS > Dump
OB > OB > PS > IT > Dump
OB > OB > BS > BS > Dump


It's a really tight rotation due not having epidemic but I'm able to work round it most of the time because BS turns the blood runes in Death runes.

Guessing you armoryed me for my build but I'll paste it anyways.

THIS

I think the rotation will work better once I get 4 piece set bonus of tier 7.

A new thread is not necessary. The existing rather large duel wielding thread is where you should post as it primarily deals with Frost duel-wielding. This thread was created because DW Unholy plays very differently than either 2H Unholy or DW frost. I suggest you post your information there.

However, my data suggests you would deal more damage with the build in the OP. Your damage for your Obliterates will be slightly better than mine. However, I have full Wandering Plague, a raid buffed Ghoul, and a Gargoyle while you get 5% melee haste. My Blood Caked Blade deals more damage. My Death Coils deal more damage.

My Obliterate: 80% * 1.2 * 1.375 * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.15 (5 more runic power)
Your Obliterate: 80% * 1.2 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15 (15% more critical and 245% criticals)

My Death Coil scaling: 0.15 * 1.15 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.13 * 1.15 = 0.3018
Your Death Coil scaling: 0.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.13 * 1.15 = 0.257

A look at your rotation and mine also shows I am doing more moves as well:

Yours after 20 sec (assuming you proc Rime once per rotation which is best case scenario):

Pest -> OB -> OB -> BS -> DC -> DC
OB -> OB -> OB -> DC -> DC -> HB

Mine:

PS -> IT -> OB -> IT -> BS -> DC -> DC
DC -> OB -> OB -> BS -> IT -> DC -> DC

Both assuming 4pc T7.

You run five Obliterates, 1 Howling Blast, 1 Blood Strike, and 4 Death Coils
I run three Obliterates, 2 Blood Strike, 1 Plague Strike, 3 Icy Touch, and 5 Death Coils

By my math, you come up short. Unfortunately for you, the only time you deal more damage is when the boss is at 35% or less when Merciless Combat kicks in.

Given how much damage a talented glyphed raid buffed Ghoul can do, you are well short.

Edit: Killing Machine would raise the critical rate of Howling Blast. Unfortunately it has no effect on Obliterate. If you use Frost Strike, you should post in the two-hand thread instead and strap on one of those. Good luck making it work. I suggest you try a simulator or a spreadsheet to help your analysis.

I'm afraid that you might be right after all on this one, but I'm not giving up quite yet. Your math looked accurate, but you left out KM procs. I was also going to mention how much damage comes from the talents that improve Icy Touch, but I realized that I don't use it in my rotation, which seems wrong to me.

However, the buff provided by improved Icy talons is really strong...which also says to me "give up on the glyph of disease rotation."

thanks for the input, I'm gonna take this to the thread.

The presence you should use is determined by gear. 0/18/53 in Blood Presence is a gear check. If you have the gear, it scales much better than other builds. If you don't have the gear, the scaling won't help since it starts lower.

As your test shows, Improved Unholy Presence starts higher. Unfortunately, it scales worse with gear so as you gear up, 0/18/53 in Blood Presence will pass it. I suggest you try the simulator or test it in a group environment with buffs. As Blood Presence version scales better, having raid buffs gives it more of a damage boost. Obviously use the one that gives you more DPS.

Remember that you need 14% Armor Penetration before Obliterate reaches the level where it deals an average damage equal to Scourge Strike with all the talents. Any Armor Penetration obtained after this will make Obliterate scale better and make the stat scale better. You can use it before you reach that level as you also gain more runic power but if you are low on Armor Penetration, you are better off using 0/17/54 in Unholy Presence.

Once you get 4 pc T7, you will notice much better results. The runic power boost really helps.

Note: If I did my math correctly, 4 pc T8 is not a DPS loss but breaking the 4 pc T7 for 2 pc T8 is. If you want T8, make sure you get 4 pieces before you upgrade. Obliterate gets a 7.5% damage boost from the set bonus.

As for comparisons between 2H Unholy and DW Unholy, I need to see parses of DW Unholy. Theoretical numbers are one thing but actual raid numbers are the ultimate judge. 2H Unholy is at the top of the currently listed parses for both bosses where data is being collected with no DW build listed. Until that changes, I will work under the assumption that it is lower than the 2H builds. Simulator results mean nothing without actual proof.

As my goal is to make the build the top DPS option, I will continue to work on improving it.

Going back to XT tonight so I should have a parse for you for DW unholy with SS, but it is coming out to about the same as my 2H attempts, both at around 6200-6300 dps depending. I am using slow/fast ilvl 213/219 and my 2H is also ilvl 219 and unfortunately I do not have 4 pc t7. Do you have a parse for 18/53 we can look at? Otherwise the same logic should be applied.

edit: Ignore that last bit I think I misinterpreted. You were saying for any of these builds, right?

Orlgin: I decided to take a look at what type of numbers your OP Build would put out with the rotation and gear you have in the OP. Took every item you posted there. The stats used with that gear turned out to be this (note: the armor was a pure guess but armor doesn't really effect anything since we don't have Bladed Armor):
I included 2pT7 and 4pT7. I did a 100hour 200ms Simulation of 0/18/53 in BP, DPS: 5557. Then I decided to just change the spec and rotation just to see how 0/17/54 BP would do. Same stats, gear, everything. This gave DPS: 5499. I did this for all popular DW specs that I feel can compete.

Spec		Presence	Hours	Latency	Sigil	DPS	DPS Rank
0/18/53		Blood	100	200ms	Vengeful Heart	5557dps	7th
0/18/53		Unholy	100	200ms	Vengeful Heart	5598dps	4th
0/18/53		Blood	100	200ms	Awareness	5561dps	6th
0/18/53		Unholy	100	200ms	Awareness	5596dps	5th
0/17/54		Blood	100	200ms	Vengeful Heart	5499dps	8th
0/17/54		Unholy	100	200ms	Vengeful Heart	5638dps	3rd
0/13/58		Blood	100	200ms	Vengeful Heart	5664dps	2nd
0/13/58		Unholy	100	200ms	Vengeful Heart	5468dps	10th
0/13/58		Blood	100	200ms	Awareness	5685dps	1st
0/13/58		Unholy	100	200ms	Awareness	5477dps	9th

So 0/13/58 BP and 0/17/54 IUP both outdps 0/18/53 BP. Though it isn't by much. The one problem I have with this is both 0/13/58 and 0/18/53 Can't really break 4pT7 too easily because of the bonus. This limits their the stats they can pick up while 0/17/54 Can pick up whatever without too much worrying. 0/17/54 was also tested here without the 2pT8 bonus which could potentially boost it above the others. It's been known that 0/13/58 doesn't scale that well, and 0/18/53 is somewhat stuck to T7.

Just Some brainfood for you Olgrin and everyone else.

Interesting. We know that 0/17/54 Unholy scales the worst of the builds. It's more flexible and does better DPS in the beginning but gets worse as gear gets better. This makes it an ideal beginning build but one that will be replaced once you get good enough gear. It's as good as any build here for now.

0/13/58 has a stronger Plague Strike and has Desecration which improves it's scaling. The assumption of 100% uptime on Desecration is why it has stronger numbers on the sim. Desecration will be in the 70-80 range realistically. That means that it's like virtually identical to 0/17/54 but will have better endgame scaling. While Obliterate scales better than Scourge strike with the right stats, it does free up stronger talent points in Unholy not to use it.

0/18/53 was designed with talents that don't sim well but work well in the real world. Morbidity on the sim is a weak DPS talent, for example, but that 15 sec cooldown Death N Decay works wonders for AoE. Improved Unholy Presence is a waste of points on the sim. If you take the weaker points, change them in the sim to DPS stronger talents, you get better results. It likely scales the best of the lot but not much better than 0/13/58.

The end result of all this is that for all practical purposes, you have your choice of specs to test with. When I have more time, I'll list all three on the front with rotations and recommended presence. I'll list Blood for 0/18/53 and recommend it for highest gear levels. I'll list 0/17/54 Unholy as the best for Naxx level gearing going into Ulduar. 0/13/58 Blood will be recommended for the gear set on the OP.

i did patchwerk last night (25man) and reached 5,4k dps in a 2min 46s kill.
0/17/54 spec and spamming IT/PS for RP while keeping GF up in IUP.
with that rotation i dont benefit from T7 set-bonuses and only got 3pc valorous anyways.

no flask, just some fish feast food buff and regular raidbuffs.

Im spamming all the time, almost never got any spare time. I use GF prepull, to have it up from start.
other than that i prioritize IT highest (most RP), then BS (BS+IT = 35RP) while 2x PS is only 30RP, but have to do PS once every 10s for desecration. but other than that BS > PS. and GF every 30s.
And dump RP with DC whenever i got time or are close to full RP bar.

basically my rotation end up being something like this, during a fight. or atleast try to
IT, IT, BS, BS, PS, GF, dump,
IT, IT, IT, IT, PS, PS, dump,
IT, IT, BS, BS, PS, PS, dump,
IT, IT, IT, IT, PS, GF, dump,
IT, IT, BS, BS, PS, PS, dump,
IT, IT, IT, IT, PS, PS, dump

just did 2.8k dps on boss dummy, horns and bone shield was up, used gargolye once, duration was 4mins.
was whispering with some stupid noob saying someone in my guild ninjaed in naxx 10 during the time aswell.

Sten: Did you use AotD? Also it's best to use one DC in the beginning of a Rune set instead of waiting until dumps or else it's easier to run over. Also with latency, you should actually only get around 8 GCDs instead of 9, so you'll find that you can exclude a PS in most of the rotations you do. Why I tend to exclude a PS instead of a BS is from what I said before, 2 PS gives 30RP, a BS plus the IT from the death rune gives 35 RP.

Ye, used AotD on patchwerk (midfight).
i usually got like 50-60ms during raids and decent fps, and if i have to exclude something it is PS in favor of DC.

IT, IT, IT, IT, PS, PS which is the longest and most RP generating streak is 130RP which is exactly maximum and ofc, i do throw in a DC in middle whenever there is room or i tend to go close to RP cap. its not a rotation set in stone, i shift around when needed.


tried to do sarth 3d 10man bruteforce today, but without aoe tank and not the best healer we failed on tank or healer dying. did almost 6k dps with gargoyle, aotd (prepull) and bloodlust several times in a ~60s fight. other buffs was fish feast, kings, bom, 10% ap, WF, soe, retri aura

Figured I'd post this here as we are lacking real parses,


Wow Web Stats

0/17/54 unholy presence, not using SS or OB at the moment.


Working on some math and theory to be posted later, but I wanted to share this parse in case anyone is looking for data to go though.

WWS log: Wow Web Stats
sarth 3d 10man brute force attempt.

Found something interesting. Glyph of Obliterate is additive and not multiplicative. I really should pay more attention to my tooltip.

Glyphed Obliterate is 100% weapon damage and 584 bonus damage. If it was multiplicative, it would be 96% and 560 bonus damage.

Since it's 100%, it doesn't matter if diseases are additive or multiplicative since they add up to the same total.

1.1 * 1.375 * 1.15 * 1.02 = 1.77416 or 177.416% Weapon Damage in Blood Presence

(1.77416 * 2.4)/14 = 0.304 AP coefficient

If you use Desecration, it's 0.319.