@ Elrojo: You listed the rotation for 0/18/53 and use Obliterate. However, your glyph selection is wrong as you need Icy Touch glyph to do that rotation. Cut Dark Death for Icy Touch. 0/13/58 is a Scourge Strike spamming build. I assume you meant 0/18/53 based on that rotation and listed the wrong glyph by accident as that rotation is impossible without it.
0/13/58 w/ Scourge Strike would be similiar to the 2H version. Fill in gaps with Horn of Winter if you can.
Last edited by Orlgin : 04/30/09 at 12:21 PM.
Reason: Made mistakes
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
I just started testing the 0/13/58 in game last night. I don't run simulators so all my learning is done in-game. So this may not fit the super perfect rotation but it worked well for me. I am open to any tweak suggestions.
Basic
PS, IT, OB, BS, BS, DC, DC
PS, IT, OB, IT, IT, DC, DC, DC
AoE
PS, IT, Pest, BB, OB, DC, DC
Major Glyphs - Ghoul, Dark Death, Obliterate
Minor Glyphs - Pestilence, Horn of Winter, Raise Dead
*this is listed on the spec link given on page 1
0/13/58 Uses SS instead of OB. So you'd want to switch your glyph from OB to SS and your Priority would be Diseases>SS>BS>UB>DC. If you want to, you can also just Forget about Diseases and go SS>BS>UB>DC and it should be only ~100dps loss since the SS Glyph will put diseases on the target even if there are none.
Also, with FC/FC vs FC/RI vs FC/CG etc... FC/FC seems to come out on top with my sims by usually ~75-80dps. In game, I have near 100% uptime, It's probably about 90-95% uptime if I'd have to guess (with FC/FC).
Yep. You both are right. I used the wrong spec in my rotation post. 0/18/53 is what I read and mixed up. Dyslexia strikes again.
Those rotations are for 0/18/53.
Regarding the glyphs, I kept Dark Death as I wanted to test 10RP from IT vs extra 15% from DC. I did notice that I was not able to hit the 3rd DC on the standard rotation. So 15% bonus damage on 4 DCs vs 1 more DC. I do not have the 4pc T7 yet. I would like to test it with that bonus RP and keeping Dark Death glyph.
There are 2 points in icy reach that can be moved around into improved unholy presence if that suits your style of play. It makes all cooldown timers fly by with that option.
I'm too low a level at 72 to really maximixe the spec, so I went back to a 2h weapon for the time being. this is my planned lvl 80 build.
I can take constructive critizims well enough if you think this looks less than strong. its great for pest/bb spamming ae's
The OB glyph, being additive, acts as a 1.25 multiplier, while the DC glyph is only 1.15. Looking at damage contribution from the glyphs:
DC: [9578 + 1.75AP] * 0.15 = 1437 + 0.2625AP
OB: [4645+ 0.97AP] * 0.25 = 1161+ 0.2425AP
From what I can tell, even with the case stacked for Obliterate (max armor pen, double crit rate v. DC) the DC glyph adds more dps, and scales slightly better with AP. Or have I made some glaring error somewhere?
The OB glyph, being additive, acts as a 1.25 multiplier, while the DC glyph is only 1.15. Looking at damage contribution from the glyphs:
DC: [9578 + 1.75AP] * 0.15 = 1437 + 0.2625AP
OB: [4645+ 0.97AP] * 0.25 = 1161+ 0.2425AP
From what I can tell, even with the case stacked for Obliterate (max armor pen, double crit rate v. DC) the DC glyph adds more dps, and scales slightly better with AP. Or have I made some glaring error somewhere?
If you are taking 3/3 morbidity then possibly. Personally I have switched to 2/2 epidemic and 1/3 morbidity. Morbidity point for point is fairly low on the totem pole (pointed out very often in the unholy 2H thread) and in Ulduar I am finding very limited use for D&D (Razorscale is one, XT if I have to switch over to help adds [rarely], we currently don't aoe any trash really). Putting 2/2 epidemic allows me to use the full rotation pointed out by the OP without having diseases fall off. With only 1 point in morbidity, the obliterate glyph runs ahead.
If you are taking 3/3 morbidity then possibly. Personally I have switched to 2/2 epidemic and 1/3 morbidity. Morbidity point for point is fairly low on the totem pole (pointed out very often in the unholy 2H thread) and in Ulduar I am finding very limited use for D&D (Razorscale is one, XT if I have to switch over to help adds [rarely], we currently don't aoe any trash really). Putting 2/2 epidemic allows me to use the full rotation pointed out by the OP without having diseases fall off. With only 1 point in morbidity, the obliterate glyph runs ahead.
Even with 1/3 morb, you're looking at a 1.68 multiplier for DC.
Re-doing numbers, we get for total 20s damage:
DC: [823+0.15AP] * 1.265 * 8.4 = 8745 + 1.59AP
OB: 4645 + 0.97AP
Working out the benefit from glyphs gives you:
DC: [8745 + 1.59AP] * 0.15 = 1312 + 0.2385AP
OB: 1161 + 0.2425AP
So OB ends up scaling better, but the AP necessary to overcome DC would be (1312 - 1161) / (0.2425 - 0.2385) = 151 / 0.004 = 37750, clearly unreacheable, and this is using assumptions in favor of OB (100% armor pen, exp cap)
Using Rawr and trying to maximize AP, the highest I could get was just shy of 8k, using all the gear currently known and all raid buffs. So assuming an AP of 8k, we can figure out how much more often OB needs to crit over DC for the OB glyph to be better, even with 1/3 morb.
Then we get the breakeven point for OB glyph when OBcrit = 0.245 + 1.255*DCcrit.
However, since crit rating affects spell & melee crit equally, we need the flat crit modifiers to OB and crit from agility to be at least 24.5%. Looking at raid buffs & talents, flat modifiers are:
That's only 8.3% more than DCcrit (5.3% in 3.1.2), so unless we start wearing a ton of agility gear, I can't see how OB glyph could be better than DC glyph.
You forgot to include the weapon damage from the weapon itself. You used AP coefficient and bonus damage from the ability only. So yes, your calculations were in error. This doesn't mean you are wrong though. I'll do the math later for the set I use and see what the result is.
The T8 2 piece bonus is being buffed to 8% critical. This is a straight buff to us.
Last edited by Orlgin : 05/01/09 at 2:14 AM.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
You forgot to include the weapon damage from the weapon itself. You used AP coefficient and bonus damage from the ability only. So yes, your calculations were in error. This doesn't mean you are wrong though. I'll do the math later for the set I use and see what the result is.
The T8 2 piece bonus is being buffed to 8% critical. This is a straight buff to us.
Hm, did I forget to add that? I used the below as damage for a single OB:
The "358(base)" would be from the weapon damage (179 * 2.5 * 0.8), so the 852 comes from the base + the flat amount. Should I be adding the base weapon damage again, so that it would be [1183+0.1714AP]?
@Righthorn: You are right. I made the mistake and not you. My apologies. How the hell did I miss that?
I'll update the OP. This will change how much physical damage % that the spec is dealing which will change Armor Penetration's value but it shouldn't be too bad.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
@Righthorn: You are right. I made the mistake and not you. My apologies. How the hell did I miss that?
I'll update the OP. This will change how much physical damage % that the spec is dealing which will change Armor Penetration's value but it shouldn't be too bad.
How does this affect the OPs comment about scaling and damage compared to Scourge Strike? It will soon generate slightly less RP, but so will SS, and without the glyph it seems that it would require quite a bit more ArP and higher end gear to catch up. However, a more powerful DC also gives more worth to the RP Oblit generates so...
How does this affect the OPs comment about scaling and damage compared to Scourge Strike? It will soon generate slightly less RP, but so will SS, and without the glyph it seems that it would require quite a bit more ArP and higher end gear to catch up. However, a more powerful DC also gives more worth to the RP Oblit generates so...
Well I've done quite a bit of simming with the three DW builds and OB seems to always come out on bottom.. Even with the BiS OB gear, DC spam and SS Spam come out on top. Now I don't know how this will be with the changes to T7 and T8.
I have played both variations, one including SS one focused around OB, with appropriate gearing for each.
Getting the right stats for Obliterate builds this early requires you to dump soooo much crit I think it becomes less effective than the ease of the SS builds. It may just mean that I need more crit for that gear set, but looking at the gear, I don;t know where I am supposed to find it.
Even at 16% ArP, I was not able to match the average damage of my SS's with Obliterates. If you combine this with how well the SS glyph provides you openings for more GCD to be put towards DC"s, then it just becomes a better build for new content and early gear to me. THis may change when they remove the extra 5 RP, but I do not think it will change much. It will just make new gear that much more attractive.
I have played both variations, one including SS one focused around OB, with appropriate gearing for each.
Getting the right stats for Obliterate builds this early requires you to dump soooo much crit I think it becomes less effective than the ease of the SS builds. It may just mean that I need more crit for that gear set, but looking at the gear, I don;t know where I am supposed to find it.
Even at 16% ArP, I was not able to match the average damage of my SS's with Obliterates. If you combine this with how well the SS glyph provides you openings for more GCD to be put towards DC"s, then it just becomes a better build for new content and early gear to me. THis may change when they remove the extra 5 RP, but I do not think it will change much. It will just make new gear that much more attractive.
Quick way to check the changes with the Current version of the sim is to simply remove 2/2 Dirge. I know this also removes 5 RP from PSs but you don't use PS that often, and it gives the same effect as the implied T7 Change. I find that it's only ~100dps drop for me, though 0/17/54 was only ~100dps behind 0/13/58 and with the changes to T8, that might push 0/17/54 ahead. I had 0/17/54 ~100dps ahead of 0/13/58 in BiS.
@Octopi : 14% was the amount of armor that needed to be removed. Unfortunately, that's not 14% Armor Penetration.
Boss Armor is 10643. Cap is (10643 + 16635)/3 is 9092. 16% * 9092 = 1454. Which is 13.66%.
So that actually is expected. You do have a point that I need to rewrite the Armor Penetration section.
Losing Glyph of Obliterate hurt more than I thought. The 14% figure was based on a 96% Obliterate because, at the time, I thought the glyph was multiplicative.
I just redid the armor penetration values and discovered an error that was giving Armor Penetration more value than it actually was. My percentage of Physical damage was off. Combined with the armor capping Armor penetration, losing the Obliterate glyph, and Armor Penetration went below Expertise and Critical Rating.
As I said earlier, it only works if you can get Armor Penetration EP value above those values. I haven't recalculated using the much higher levels of ArP in the new set but Kyruski says that it sims worse than his build in my gearset.
Here was the error: I used 27% for melee, 3% for Blood Caked Blade, 12% for Obliterate, 1% for Plague Strike, 2% for Blood Strike and 5% for Necrosis. That meant a total of 50% physical damage. Necrosis gets it's damage from Physical attacks even though the effect itself ignore armor. I was still using the 50% figure for calculation purposes.
Necrosis, of course, got nerfed. The whole spread is off.
That meant that every single value of a physical attack was off because it used those numbers. The whole mess is from one stupid mistake. I know better. Check and recheck. Something changed. Redo the numbers. I know I haven't had a lot of time but that's no excuse.
I'm deleting the 0/18/53 from the OP. I don't trust any of my own numbers anymore.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
@flamingsage: ArP is not pointless, but you will never get enough ArP to make OB better than SS if you don't use the OB glyph. SS scales extremely well with crit, to such a degree that it is impossible to get low enough crit and high enough ArP to make OB hit harder than SS.
That being said, SS/OB are a small fraction of your DPS, and ArP affects a great deal more, including melee damage, which is your #1/#2 source of damage along with Death Coil. The one clear advantage of DW over 2H is the higher melee damage, and ArP fits in perfectly with that. In fact, I consider the selling point of 0/18/53 to be the 2 points in CotG, not the 3 points in Annihilation. The 3 in Ann is only there because I can't fit in 6 strikes within a single cycle in Blood Presence, and OB fits nicely, giving me an FU strike and additional RP.
With the coming changes to 3.1.2 I suspect 0/18/53 will become favorable to 0/13/58, as RP becomes both more valuable (2t8 change) and more scarce (4t7 change).
My current project is to try and make 0/18/53 viable again. My previous error was not dealing enough physical damage to make Armor Penetration worth it. Perhaps a better direction would be to emulate what is successful. I know that Obliterate can deal more damage than Scourge Strike under the right conditions. Can it do what 0/13/58 does but better?
I can't reproduce the Scourge Strike glyph. This means every 20 seconds I need to open with Plague Strike and Icy Touch for diseases. I have plenty of GCDs so that isn't a problem. The two GCDs produce roughly the same amount of damage. The diseases won't be interrupted which will increase disease damage and Wandering Plague damage. It will also produce more runic power so that should be a plus. In it's place, I can put the Obliterate glyph instead. As a minus, 0/13/58 can occasionally use Horn of Winter using the time saved by using one GCD instead of two.
Okay, so there is another problem. Desecration only lasts 12 seconds. Uptime for it would be pretty bad as well with only one applicator. Therefore Desecration would need to be cut. I also need to cut Outbreak and Scourge Strike which frees up nine talent points.
3/3 Outbreak gives Scourge Strike 20% more damage. Glyph of Obliterate gives a 25% boost.
1/1 Scourge Strike grants the ability to use it. Obliterate is free.
5/5 Desecration adds 5% damage. 2/2 Chill to the Grave adds 5 runic power to Obliterate and Icy Touch. 2/3 Morbidity gives 10% bonus to Death Coils.
3/3 Annihilation adds 3% critical to melee special attacks which is a very small bonus.
2/2 Improved Unholy Presence adds running speed which increases survivability but adds nothing to simulated DPS.
3/3 Cruelty which both have grants Scourge Strike a 30% critical damage bonus that Obliterate doesn't get.
So at this point, I must define opening values. Both specs should be expertise and spell hit capped so no spells and special attacks miss.
The value for Armor Penetration must exceed that of other values for 0/13/58. Otherwise, 0/13/58 could simply take that stat instead of ArP and get a DPS benefit. Armor Penetration gains value as you get more of it. The question becomes: is there a obtainable amount of ArP where this is true?
I will be working on the answer.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Olgrin, I notice a *1.13 value during the SS calculations, that would be the Ebon Plaguebearer bonus correct? If it is not, then do not forget to include that in. As well, are you calculating in the bonus damage on these abilities as well? Obliterate garnishes ~+100 additional bonus damage, but it is physical, so that is something to consider, as well as that bonus damage on SS getting the EP bonus. Also, Obliterate gets +12.5% bonus per disease, whereas SS gets 11%, so the 3x diseases in the UH build generate +37.5% damage for OB, and +33% for SS. Lastly, looking forward to the T8 bonus, for +20% more bonus damage, you will be looking at +45% damage for 3x disease OB vs. +39.6% for SS 3x diseases. These all seem to weigh in OB favor.
I have been running a variation on the 0/13/58 SS build and using a slow/fast combo with FC/RI since 3.1 came out ...after thinking about it, i started to wonder why i was using RI at all ..i rarely use IT ..only if SS glyph fails, which isn't all that often. Other than FF, we dont really do any other frost dmg ..after switching offhand to CG, i am seeing improved numbers. Is this the general consensus? I read these forums pretty faithfully, and if specific rune-forges have been discussed in-depth, i am afraid i missed that discussion. Am i right with this setup or am i missing something obvious?
I have been running a variation on the 0/13/58 SS build and using a slow/fast combo with FC/RI since 3.1 came out ...after thinking about it, i started to wonder why i was using RI at all ..i rarely use IT ..only if SS glyph fails, which isn't all that often. Other than FF, we dont really do any other frost dmg ..after switching offhand to CG, i am seeing improved numbers. Is this the general consensus? I read these forums pretty faithfully, and if specific rune-forges have been discussed in-depth, i am afraid i missed that discussion. Am i right with this setup or am i missing something obvious?
If you had noticed my post a little further up this page, you would've seen
Originally Posted by Kyruski
Also, with FC/FC vs FC/RI vs FC/CG etc... FC/FC seems to come out on top with my sims by usually ~75-80dps. In game, I have near 100% uptime, It's probably about 90-95% uptime if I'd have to guess (with FC/FC).
04/30/09, 12:19 PM
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