Kyruski with your build do you recommend Fast FC/ Fast FC? Since I notice that is what you are using at the moment on your armory? Or are those simply the best weapons you got available?
@Ugraz: I've only done some math on a very very small part of the DW dps model - by no means do I have a complete picture on what's top dps or not. Also I work primarily with models, rather than sims, which has its upsides and downsides. Lots of work has been done by people on this thread using sims, and they've got a far better grasp of what's top dps than I do. I was running 0/18/53 but after doing some numbers on SS v. OB, I'm looking at a 0/13/58 SS spec - at least until 3.1.2 or I get 2t8 or more ArP gear. I still have yet to figure out which glyph is the best - I'm not entirely sold that using the SS glyph is worth is over the IT/Dark Death/Ghoul trio. The point of DW over 2H is to use the higher melee damage and higher RP generation to overcome the weaker strike damage.
Looking at the best case scenario in favor of the SS glyph over DC glyph where you have 100% disease uptime from SS alone, in a 20s cycle you have:
SS Glyph: SS SS BB BB HW DC DC | SS SS IT IT DC DC DC + 10RP = 4xSS 2xBB 2xIT 5.25xDC
DC Glyph: IT PS SS BB BB DC DC | SS SS IT IT DC DC DC = 3xSS 2xBB 3xIT 1xPS 5.75xDC
So from a purely dps standpoint, if your SS is greater than IT+PS+0.5DC, OR you don't have enough haste/low latency to squeeze in 4 strikes + 3 spells into 10s then SS glyph is better, otherwise the DC glyph is better.
@Orlgin: The 'problem' I've found when comparing SS to OB was not the base damage, but the crit scaling of SS due to Vicious Strikes. Comparing crit multipliers:
While OB base may hit harder, once we account for crit, SS overtakes it quickly. Even assuming we have 0 Crit Rating, the minimum raid buffed OBCrit we have is:
Which means the crit multipliers are at least:
OB: 1.278
SS: 1.398 (9.4% more)
Given that in your full Naxx25 gear you'll have at least 12% crit from ratings, the multipliers become:
OB: 1.406
SS: 1.562 (11.1% more)
From what I can tell, it's simply unrealistic to make OB hit harder than SS, and OB glyph does not seem to be the way to go as it's a straight dps loss when compared to the DC glyph. The only way I could see using the OB glyph (and this is a distinct possibility, as I haven't done the full model workup) is that ArP becoming desirable is contigent upon having the OB glyph AND that only with the OB glyph does it scale well enough to overcome the DPS gain from DC glyph. Given that OB is a small part of our DPS (at best I would say half of DC dps) I am dubious that this would be the case. I suspect that if ArP is a desirable stat, it's regardless of whether we use the OB glyph or not.
One thing I would also keep in mind is how ArP scales with haste. More haste you have, more melee hits, better ArP becomes.
As a side note, I can't understand why everyone keeps saying morbidity is so bad. Yes it may be bad for 2h, but one of the point of DW is generating more RP to fire off more spells. At worst DC is 20% of your dps, which makes Morbidity at least as good as Desecration. Nobody balks at taking 3/3 Outbreak in an SS spec, but that's only 33% more than 3/3 Morb, and unless SS+PS ends up doing at least 90% of DC dps, 3/3 Morb would be better.
Last edited by righthorn : 05/02/09 at 7:01 PM.
Reason: Added in crit from EP
@Righthorn: 30% critical damage bonus isn't as strong as you think. Obliterate only needs to be 15% stronger than Scourge Strike for base damage for it to be better. That's assuming a healthy 50% critical chance.
Like I said, I'm trying the playstyle of 0/13/58 so that would mean Glyphs of Obliterate, Dark Death, and Ghoul. With double the number of Obliterates, it will increase the amount of physical damage that I deal. We'll ignore, for now, that a 2-Handed version of this might do more damage and go with it.
My old set has 287 Armor Penetration. This represents 23.3% Armor Penetration. Using the cap of 9092, this reduces Boss armor by 2118. Real Armor Penetration value: 19.9%. 24% additional armor is removed from the boss by raid effects. This means 56.1% of 41.1% damage reduction. Roughly 23% of physical damage will be negated by armor.
That much Armor Penetration converted to Critical Rating would give 6.25% Critical. That means that Scourge Strike gets a 9% higher critical chance as it gets 3% more critical from talents. The value of that critical, assuming a total 50% critical rate, is (100 - 41)/100 * 9 which is a 5.31% bonus. Remember that cruelty is already calculated in.
So 138.69% * 1.0531 = 146.054%
Obliterate slightly edges Scourge Strike at that level of Armor Penetration. This higher number is due to Scourge Strike getting the benefit of Desecration while Obliterate does not. Any additional armor penetration just increases the gap.
At which point, my Death Coils hits for about the same but I still get more of them. My Armor Penetration and his critical both affect our melee but 8% more melee damage has more impact than 6.25% critical. He start though with a 5% advantage through Desecration so his melee would still be better with a total 8.36% benefit. That means his Necrosis damage is better. My Blood Caked Blade damage would be better (5% vs 8%).
Pet damage would be the same. His Blood Strike gets 6% more critical and 5% from Desecration. Mine gets 8% more damage which means his is still better.
Overall, unless I'm missing something, I should do more damage.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
I mentioned this earlier, and got no response, so I will try it again. I do not see any calculations within the OB vs SS calculations accounting for the fact that OB gets 12.5% per disease bonus, versus 11% for scourge strike, for a +37.5% with 3 diseases up vs. 33% with 3 diseases up for SS. Factoring into this the +20% bonus from 4pc t8 eventually, and the gap becomes even wider, with +45% with 3 diseases for OB vs. +39.6% with 3 diseases up for SS. I think this is a huge factor in the equation, no? Also the base of about +100 dmg (physical) for OB. Not a huge amount, but still there, as well as using the Sigil of Awareness OB garnishes +336 dmg (physical mitigated) vs SS garnishing +189 shadow (ebon plague effected). Both things to consider no?
I mentioned this earlier, and got no response, so I will try it again. I do not see any calculations within the OB vs SS calculations accounting for the fact that OB gets 12.5% per disease bonus, versus 11% for scourge strike, for a +37.5% with 3 diseases up vs. 33% with 3 diseases up for SS. Factoring into this the +20% bonus from 4pc t8 eventually, and the gap becomes even wider, with +45% with 3 diseases for OB vs. +39.6% with 3 diseases up for SS. I think this is a huge factor in the equation, no? Also the base of about +100 dmg (physical) for OB. Not a huge amount, but still there, as well as using the Sigil of Awareness OB garnishes +336 dmg (physical mitigated) vs SS garnishing +189 shadow (ebon plague effected). Both things to consider no?
They are actually calculating with those values above:
My old set has 287 Armor Penetration. This represents 23.3% Armor Penetration. Using the cap of 9092, this reduces Boss armor by 2118. Real Armor Penetration value: 19.9%. 24% additional armor is removed from the boss by raid effects. This means 56.1% of 41.1% damage reduction. Roughly 23% of physical damage will be negated by armor.
This is not correct. Armor penetration from gear and talents is applied after debuffs, so your ArP is working against ~8089 armor, so after your 287 rating, damage reduction from armor is about 29.1%. In order to get the boss down to the 23% mitigation you use in your calculations, you'd need about 560 ArP rating. Clearly OB will out-scale SS per AP with sufficient ArP, but you seem to be overestimating the damage increase per point of ArP rating. If you want to think of ArP's "efficiency," it effectively reduces debuffed boss armor by 96.1% of what your character sheet tooltip claims.
@righthorn: There is no armor penetration cap; armor penetration rating is currently able to bring boss armor below zero and continues to increase damage at that point. Even if it were capped at the "cap," debuffed bosses are at ~315 armor vs. someone with 1232 ArP rating or 100% ArP, which amounts to taking 98.0% of physical damage. In order for a boss to take 91% physical damage, you'd need about 1045 ArP rating.
Also, I think you're confused about what "x% weapon damage" means--it multiplies the AP coefficient as well as the base weapon damage. So totally untalented, un-diseased, un-glyphed, and pre-mitigation, SS gains .45*2.4/14=0.077 damage per AP and OB gains .8*2.4/14=.137 damage per AP. Basically you need to multiply your OB scalar by .8 and your SS scalar by .45.
@mongoose: Mostly people are interested primarily in scaling as gear improves, so flat bonuses such as Sigil of Awareness flat bonus from the ability are not included. One could consider the Sigil of Awareness to be worth about 2450 AP on your SS/OB only, however, which only makes the AP scaling discussion more relevant. And all the calculations I've seen have included the differing bonus damage from diseases (and usually 4t8 in that as well).
Last edited by teiglin : 05/03/09 at 11:19 PM.
Reason: use lv80 armor constant for players!
@righthorn: There is no armor penetration cap; armor penetration rating is currently able to bring boss armor below zero and continues to increase damage at that point. Even if it were capped at the "cap," debuffed bosses are at ~315 armor vs. someone with 1232 ArP rating or 100% ArP, which amounts to taking 98.1% of physical damage. In order for a boss to take 91% physical damage, you'd need about 1020 ArP rating.
Also, I think you're confused about what "x% weapon damage" means--it multiplies the AP coefficient as well as the base weapon damage. So totally untalented, un-diseased, un-glyphed, and pre-mitigation, SS gains .45*2.4/14=0.077 damage per AP and OB gains .8*2.4/14=.137 damage per AP. Basically you need to multiply your OB scalar by .8 and your SS scalar by .45.
You are also absolutely right there on the second part about the AP, so my numbers are completely off, and Orlgin's is right.
Redoing these numbers with correct calculations this time... (thanks to teg)
OB with 5/5 desc, glyph. Looking at multipliers we have (where AR = 1 - armor reduction):
OB: 1.45(dis) * 1.15(BP) * 1.1(RoR) * 1.02(BS) * 1.05(Des) * 1.25(glyph) * 1.04(BF) * AR = 2.55AR
SS: 1.396(dis) * 1.15(BP) * 1.1*(RoR) * 1.02(BS) * 1.05(Des) * 1.2(out) * 1.13(EP) * 1.1(BI) * 0.95(resist) = 2.68
Looking at the Crit multipliers, with assumption that ArP in OB is converted to Crit in SS
OB: 1 + 1.06Crit
SS: 1 + 1.36(Crit + 0.03 + ArP/4591) = 1.0408 + ArP/3376 + 1.36Crit
Putting it all in with a 179dps 2.5s MH, at 7000AP (1648 per hit):
OB: (1648 * 0.8 + 467) * 2.55AR * (1 + 1.06Crit) = 4553AR + 4826ARCrit
SS: (1648 * 0.45 + 152) * 2.68 * (1.0408 + ArP/3376 + 1.36Crit) = 2493 + 0.709ArP + 3257Crit
Now the interesting question is which one scales better, OB with ArP, or SS with that ArP used as Crit. Differentiating both wrt ArP, we get:
SS': 0.709
OB': 2412 * (4553 + 4826Crit) / (ArP^2 - 7614ArP + 3807^2)
Looking at the denominator of OB', we see that it is continually decreasing between 0 and 3807. If we show that OB'(0) > 0.709, then OB will always scale better with ArP than SS does with Crit. Plugging in we get OB'(0) = 0.758 + 0.803Crit, which is greater than 0.709 for all Crit.
What happens when we don't use the OB/SS glyph? SS doesn't lose any damage, but OB does (Of course OB is compensated for the fact that DC will hit harder, and OB lets you fire more DCs, but we'll put that aside for now):
OB* = OB / 1.25
OB*' = OB' / 1.25
OB*'(0) = 0.606 + 0.643Crit. For this to be greater than 0.709, Crit >= 16%, which it always will be. Thus we can say that glyphed or not, ArP scales better for OB than Crit scales for SS.
@Teiglin: Player armor and the ghoul armor are not the same. The value you gave is indeed correct at 39%. I am staring at my ghoul in my other window that has 41.1% armor with slightly less than 10643 armor. I can't help but wonder if Blizzard has a bugged tooltip for the Ghoul. I decided to make my life easier and downloaded the excellent Armor Penetration spreadsheet in the Combat Ratings section. If anyone can explain to me why my Ghoul gets more armor reduction than a standard mob, I'm intrigued and want to know more.
287.054 Armor Penetration results in 27.16% mitigation according to the sheet so I was off. You were right, I was using the full value instead of the debuffed amount. With the information from that sheet, I have updated my own so that portion of it should be error free now.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
At 10643 armor, 41% is the mitigation when a level 80 (player) is the attacker. 39% is the mitigation when a level 83 (boss) is the attacker. Your pet screen shows the value for an equal level (level 80) attacker, thus showing 41%. For our purposes, isn't the 41% value the correct one?
You're right of course, righthorn; I was idiotic and used the lv83 armor constant for attacks even though both damage reduction from armor and the armor pen cap use the attacker's level. So Orlgin was correct that boss with no debuffs takes 41% less damage. I'm surprised that the spreadsheet in another thread would have made the same mistake I did, but in any case, I edited my post above to be correct.
First of all, i would like to introduce my results with 10/10/51 spec on deconstrutor Wow Web Stats .
6349 DPS, ghoul didn't calculate so add ~10% to my dmg.
Rotation ps>it>bs>bs>ps>>it>dc ps>it>it>ps>it>it>dc , 2x fast weapons, 2x FC, old IT sigil, glyphs: IT, Dark Death, Ghoul, unholy presc.
Isn't it better than 0/17/54? /discuss
I thought that XT-002 should never been used as a dps meter due to the massive dps increase that the heart creates.
By checking your stats on Kologarn, your choice seems to be not impressive at all. Especially when comparing with the second dps DK of your raid doing 80% more damage with a 2H spec.
Imo deconstructor>kologarn, cos you dont have problems with LOS while fighting with first. And i am not only one befiting from heart, most of raid gets dps increase there
And about kologarn: i failed there:< had big problems with los like most of mellee
Actually the Ghoul is indeed listed on that WWS. It's clearly there so I'm surprised you missed it. That was your true DPS including pets. 10/10/51 sims lower than any of the builds here. It's actually what we started with if you follow the thread. I'm surprised, given that this is such a short thread, that you missed that as well.
Edit: As for XT, that boss favors classes with effective burst. None of these builds including 10/10/51 has that kind of burst. Duel-wield builds tend to favor steady damage. Both Blood and Frost can outburst them so when they get access to the heart, they can use that burst to get a quick advantage. Only a really great guild can make it an effective test: by the whole group doing more DPS you can get access to more heart-time as a percentage of total damage which means that specs that do steady damage can catch up.
Good example: In a 30 second test, Blood smokes all the specs due to Hysteria. Frost can hold a full runic power and use massive hitting Frost Strikes to get second. Unholy would get last. But in overall boss fights, Unholy has been dominating with the exception of Hodir who's unique aspects make Frost much better due to much higher crit damage.
Last edited by Orlgin : 05/04/09 at 11:16 AM.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Imo deconstructor>kologarn, cos you dont have problems with LOS while fighting with first. And i am not only one befiting from heart, most of raid gets dps increase there
If the entire raid is getting an DPS boost from the heart, then the entire raid has inflated DPS numbers, and it's not great for a marker. To go back a raid tier for example, that's one of the reasons why Patchwerk was used as a DPS modeling tool and not a fight like Thaddius. Sartharion is a good fight for testing multi-phase movement fights vs. DPS, but something like Maly is not (again, powersparks boost dmg and the mounted combat messes things up).
The fewer outside variables introduced in the test, the more accurate your results will be.
The parse also seems to be incomplete. XT has (including heart hp) ~28M total for a kill. You've only got a 10M window on your segment, which I suspect is inflating dps.
The damage inflation really has no bearing on the viability of XT as a damage metric. It doesn't matter whether you do 2kdps or 20kdps; what matters is how you stack up against other classes and specs. Of all the fights in Ulduar, XT has one of the least amount of rng to alter your dps. It's very possible to go through an entire kill without getting any light/gravity bombs, letting you go full out dps. The reason Thaddius is bad is not because of the damage inflation, but because of the randomness of having to move when your polarity shifts (also double dipping by certain class/talents). The only Patch like fight for melee is Vezax; XT and Ignis are the next best thing.
The parse also seems to be incomplete. XT has (including heart hp) ~28M total for a kill. You've only got a 10M window on your segment, which I suspect is inflating dps.
The damage inflation really has no bearing on the viability of XT as a damage metric. It doesn't matter whether you do 2kdps or 20kdps; what matters is how you stack up against other classes and specs. Of all the fights in Ulduar, XT has one of the least amount of rng to alter your dps. It's very possible to go through an entire kill without getting any light/gravity bombs, letting you go full out dps. The reason Thaddius is bad is not because of the damage inflation, but because of the randomness of having to move when your polarity shifts (also double dipping by certain class/talents). The only Patch like fight for melee is Vezax; XT and Ignis are the next best thing.
One of the problems that I find with Vezax is you need to try and save enough RP for Mind Freeze and I constantly find myself holding back enough RP for usually an Extra DC which creates gaps in my GCD usage and Damage. But this is also somewhat of a discussion for the Top Raid DPS Thread.
I have a question if people have any numbers on the 17/54 build. I've been trying out the 13/58 and the 18/53 now for a while and i can't decide which one I liked best so I thought about trying the 17/54.
However I got to thinking. In the 17/54 build u have 2/3 annihilation which is 2% crit to strikes and the spec doesn't utilize Obliterate at all. The only strike you use in the rotation is PS which is a minor part of the dps you do.
So I thought about switching them into Imp. Icy Touch which would give me 8% melee haste instead of 2% crit for PS. Since melee is about 32% of my damage and ps is 6.5% it seemed as a better choice. Which got me thinking...
What if you take one point in wandering plauge which seems as a very minor dps talent ( apart from AOE ofc ) and put it into imp. IT aswell, and maybe 2 points from Desecration aswell? ( that last thing I was not quite sure about. Gaining another 8% melee haste vs. 2 % more overall damage )
Anyone got any thoughts or math on this? I skimmed through the thread one last time to see if there was any discussion about this and it seemed to me as it had not been brought up.
Imo deconstructor>kologarn, cos you dont have problems with LOS while fighting with first. And i am not only one befiting from heart, most of raid gets dps increase there
And about kologarn: i failed there:< had big problems with los like most of mellee
just a note on this fight. the actual hitbox for his right arm is basically inside of his body. Having the melee stand just on the right side of his center (right side as you are facing him), and facing his body will allow you to get all of your white hits, specials, and never have to move. Also the rubble (adds) don't land on your head.
hi guys, long time reader, first time poster.
I have tried quite a few specs, and found unholy to be my best suited, but im struggling to keep up around 3-4k dps on solo bosses.
I dont actually have a rotation apart from starting each fight with PS-IT of course. Any help thrown my way is much appreciated, im open to tweak of specs, gems etc.
Thanks The World of Warcraft Armory
hi guys, long time reader, first time poster.
I have tried quite a few specs, and found unholy to be my best suited, but im struggling to keep up around 3-4k dps on solo bosses.
I dont actually have a rotation apart from starting each fight with PS-IT of course. Any help thrown my way is much appreciated, im open to tweak of specs, gems etc.
Thanks The World of Warcraft Armory
First off, stop gemming for hit. You are grossly overcap.
Read a couple of the more populare threads on these forums concerning the class such as gearing, dps charts and comparison, and compare the stat allocation of the DK's producing the best numbers and compare them to your own.
Hit cap is 9% for Melee specials, and 11% for spells if you are unholy(you get 3% from talents, and a Spriest will provide the other 3%)
Currently, every hit rating past those numbers is essentially wasted and you are better off gemming for Strength exclusively once you achieve these caps, 534 is ridiculous, you will never hit cap yourself for Melee as a DW class, its just too high, so it has been established that you are better off aiming for the Melee special cap, and spell cap. Which are realistic.
Take the four points you currently have in Blood, and put them into BLack Ice in your frost Tree. The vast majority of your damage produced is Shadow based spell damage. Black Ice is your friend. You do not need the extra Runic power ticks from Butchery or the threat and strike modifiers of Subversion. Those are wasted points.
You should use fixed rotations, as a starting point, your opening rotation should look something like this, though there is some variation depending on player preference. There is a lot of information contained in the OP of this thread, and others on rotations. Study those, and stay as strict to them as you comfortably can.
An example of an opening rotation fro Unholy:
PS-IT-SS-BS-BS-Runic Power dump(Either UB if you have the spell and it isn't up or Deathcoil)
Glyphs.
Remove Death and Decay, its a waste of runes usually unless your doing AoE packs.
Remove Plague Strike, its only a fraction of your overall damage.
Glyph of the Ghoul is perfect.
After you remove DnD and Plague Strike glyphs. Add two of the following based on preference.
Glyph of Icey Tuch(This is Runic Power generator, you want this because you want as much Runic Power as possible to keep pumping out DC's and keeping Unholy Blight up)
Glyph of Scourge Strike(Another great glyph, as Scourge Strike will become one of your major Runic Power generators, along with being a huge component of your damage with a build that includes Scourge Strike)
Glyph of Dark Death(This is a glyph to complement your main RP nuke, Death Coil. Death Coil will end up being a large portion of your damage output, this glyph ends up working well when you take full points in Morbidity)
I would say that Scourge Strike really shines with the addition of the glyph, as the glyph will reset your diseases. This is critical when you want to use runes for things like Ghoul Frenzy. It also allows the build and spec to playa little more run and gun, and is more forgiving to mistakes made by user.
Hi there,
I need a little bit of advice. I am currently playing Kyu's spec (0/13/58). I am wondering between the items of choice:
1. Bandit's Insigna or Fury of Five Flights? It has been established that for 2h user, Bandit's Insigna is BiS due to the difficulty in keeping FoFF buff up at all time. However I find little or no information about the comparison between the 2 for DW-ers. I'm wondering if 190 constant AP plus the damage from the procc makes it worth way more than 320 AP with realistically about 70% - 80% up time during moving fights.
2. I read from 2h unholy thread that Glyph of Unholy Blight is preferred to Glyph of SS. With Glyph of UB we can fire more DC every now and then instead of having to refresh UB, whereas glyph of SS will have a chance to refresh diseases on the target so we can use more SS.
3. Slow MH makes SS hit harder. However should I use a slow MH (2.6 spd) with 163.3 dps instead of a fast MH (1.6 spd) with 178.8 dps? In the scenario of having only those 2 weapons which one should I use as MH and which one as OH? Will that be better if I have fast/fast with 178.8dps / 163.3 dps instead of slow/fast with 163.3/178.8?
About talents of choice, I'm a bit skeptic to choose Wandering Plague instead of Morbidity because of the DnD cooldown for AoE. I know Morbidity sims lower than Wandering Plague, however is the difference make it worth it?
05/02/09, 5:46 PM
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