Manveru

Okay thanks, I'll definetly try it. Another question though. Since Death Coil is so important in the rotation, do you guys save RP when Garg is up to make it last longer, or not? What gives more dps?

 

Orlgin

Gargoyle is very cheap now and definitely worth keeping up for the duration. A well executed Gargoyle is the best use of runic power available to a Death Knight. The catch is that it is somewhat fragile so poorly timed Gargoyles tend to go splat rather quickly.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Fargom

I'm going to post this simply because this questions seems to pop up ever few pages, this is a parse of Ignis running the 0/17/54 build.

Wow Web Stats

If the builds we are discussing here can produce 6000+ dps for a single target fight, I think we are justified in considering them viable endgame raiding builds.

We can simulate until the cows come home, but here is the proof that it does in-fact work in game.

 

Lollersk8er

Nice WWS log, almost no aoe and a mediocre fight length. Did you just spam IT, PS and DC?

 

Syrellia

Hi again, I have a few questions unanswered, mainly for 0/13/58 builds:
1. How are dual wields data compared to 2 handers? Is it worth it to try and sim the dual wield with best-in-slots and compare it to 2 handers sims? How reliable do you think is the sim program anyway?
2. I tried sim-ming a few 0/13/58 builds with my current itemization. I noticed one thing that when I switched Sigil of Awareness for Sigil of Vengeful Heart, it caused a dps loss. It is not significant (only by about 50 dps), but it is still suggesting that Sigil of Vengeful Heart is not much of an "upgrade" at all.
3. With the upcoming patch 3.1.2, is it still worth it to sacrifice 4 pieces bonus of t7 in favour of t8 bonuses with build 0/13/58? I am a little bit convinced that it will cause a huge dps loss still, because the sim-ming would suggest so but I have not tried to put in proper stats. (I used the newest sim so according to the sim notes they already changed the bonuses of t7 and t8 to the nerfed-buffed values).

*Edit: The questions below were answered. I'm still looking for the answers to questions posted above though*
4. I am a little bit worrying about the FC uptime. On most WWS parses including mine and some I found on EJs forum, the 2 hander FC uptime is about 75% - 80%. The dual wield counterpart is also 75% - 80% even with 2x FC on both hands during stationary fights. Does this mean that by dual wielding, we won't receive any extra FC uptime, and if we put FC on 1 hand we certainly have some uptime loss instead?

[5. This is kind of a newbie question because I am stepping onto the theory-crafting field, but how do you determine a stat-weight of any build at all? Was that what the simulation program tells you by testing out different EP values? Still come back to the question 1, how reliable is the sim program?]
*Edit: This question was immediately answered when I read the other thread about AP value derivations. Sorry please ignore this*

6. Do you think the Runes of Cinderglacier was simmed correctly in the program? Certainly it would benefit the most if used correctly on high damages skills like Scourge Strike and Death Coil, however if the rotation is priority-driven there are chances that the rune is used up by low-damage skills like Icy Touch doesn't it?

 

Fauh

I think that is the specific reason why its not recommended. I never really used it but the tooltip says that its the following 2 attacks that cause frost or shadowdamage. Can Necrosis proc this? ( That would make Cinderglacier pretty much useless in my opinion.)

Nonetheless 15% str for 15 secs is probably better than 20% more damage for 2 attacks even if necrosis or other low-damage attacks proc CR. So going for increased uptime is probably the way to go.

Feel free to prove me wrong though

 

dazzel123

im currently using blood spec for a PS-IT-SS-BS-BS (rp dump) rotation, is it worth moving a few points around to get imp unholy for a bigger rp dump? here is my spec and gear
The World of Warcraft Armory
thanks

 

Syrellia

No Necrosis does not use up Cinderglacier charge, it's been tested. However Rune of Razorice extra damages do use up Cinderglacier charge, that's why you never saw Cinderglacier/Razorice combo.
FC/Cinder used to be the second most popular combo pre-nerf because of the high damage on Howling Blast. It really boosts up dps if the charges are used correctly (I.e. use up the charge on as many HB as possible). That is why I am wondering about whether if the rune pulls ahead if the charges are used correctly on SS. The current simulator offers no option to test that, and if the sim keeps firing Icy Touch (now with even lower damages) and DC when Cinderglacier proccs, it will yield much lower result. The difference between simming the 2 (FC/FC and FC/Cinder) is not much (about 50 - 100 dps) therefore I am a wondering about if it works the same IRL too.

@dazzel: I find that blood presense works the best for the build which uses SS. I never have any extra runic power that I cannot use due to GCD. With about 350 - 400 haste the rotation should fit in perfectly even with extra runic power generation from t7.5 bonus which I will miss when switching for tier 8. Therefore Improved Unholy Presence does not really give you much except for the extra running speed, which during raid environment you could simply have your boots enchanted instead. (I'd rather sacrifice 32 atk power than sacrificing 2 talent points - the build is just too packed with good talents).
Also, I find that speccing for Epidemic and simply substitute glyph of SS with glyph of UB clean up my rotation nicely, and yield better results too. The rotation goes like
IT > PS > SS > BS > BS > UB > (possible) DC > SS > SS > SS > RP dump > IT > PS > SS > BS > BS > RP dump and repeat.
Renew the UB whenever it's off and IT + PS should renew themselves every 2 rotations (exactly 20s rune cooldowns, hence the 21 seconds debuffs fits them in perfectly). Note that the first possible DC was because I pre-used HoW and I'm Belf DK so I used Arcane Torrent as well for 25 RP initially. You can achieve that by using HoW and 4 pieces t7 however you will miss that first DC if you're missing out 4 pieces t7. Don't worry just let the rotation go on I suggest you pull 2 points out of either Desecration or Morbidity for Epidemic.
Another thing is I wouldn't put 1 point in GF over Black Ice. It's too much of a dps decrease, and I never find a rune to use for GF unless I use blood tap. It's your choice though.

I hope that helps

 

Afabar

If you have setup correctly your priority, IT is fired only when frost fever is about to fade or have fade. I'm not sure that it's a good idea to wait for SS to be available if there are missing one diseases on the target.

 

dazzel123

@Syrelli:- Aye i thought as much, but never really had much of a rotation before, just used what i thought would dish out the most damage really hehe, but i did test between BP and UP before UP gave a constant RP stream, BP came out the more for damage.
I will change a few talents and glyphs, i only really took the GF to heal my pet up when needed, but with the CH, CoH spams etc its not really used.
Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. Any other advice you feel to throw at me, go for it :P

 

Syrellia

That is true. I never really thought of that. Also it is possible that Unholy Blight will use up Cinderglacier charge as well. The conclusion is Rune of FC/FC is the best combo, but anyone has any idea why dual wielding FC/FC give only as much uptime as using 2 hander FC? If it operates on PPM then 1 hander and 2 handers should output the same uptime and dual wield has extra uptime since they have 2 weapons, and it shows clearly that if you enchant only 1 hand then the it's an uptime loss. If by using only 1 hand the uptime loss is not significant (because when dual wielding a lot of the time the procc overwrites the existing one) then wouldn't using rune of FC and berserkers enchant combo yield a lot better results? Any information on this would be very much appreciated.

*Edit: I am currently trying FC / Berserking now. In the last Hodir fight I had 70% uptime of Unholy Strength at 5 - 6 PPM and 35%+ uptime of Berserking at 2.5 PPM. Unfortunately I died in the middle of the fight so I cannot provide a fair parse yet. When I can obtain a fair WWS parse I will post them here.

For dual wield FC, even stationary fight like Kologarn I was able to get only about 74% uptime (yes there was an enhancement shaman so I was getting Windfury but I have no idea why it's not showing on WWS.)
Click here for the WWS

 

Flamingsage

Do Ghouls (pet and AotD) get affected by Armor Penetration?

I asked this question in the pet thread but it isn't getting any attention :/

 

Orlgin

Ghouls currently receive Hit Rating, Haste Rating, and Strength from their master. There was a blue poster stating that they plan in the future to add other stats such as Armor Penetration and Expertise but that it would take some time.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Syrellia

Sorry I didn't realize I didn't take into account the haste buff in Hodir fight. It must've inflated the number of proc. I'm waiting til next reset when I can get more data on FC / Berserking on Kologarn fight to compare.

Just a note that in some of my old WWS notes on a few failed Hodir attempts, I noticed that the other DK was using 2 hander weapon with 3.2 speed (it was offspec for him) with FC on and has about the same uptime as I did when I was dual wielding with 2 FC enchants. I think there might be a threshold somewhere that FC uptime just does not increase that significantly when having both of them on both hands.

According to every single 2 hander data I've ever seen on WWS, their FC uptime is around 70-80% and there is no way dual wielding can get significantly more than that (getting to 100% is just impossible unless you are uber lucky) due to overwritting FC proc (yes, the PPM is significantly better, but the uptime is not). This is why increasing in PPM and reducing the bonus by half will effectively nerf dual wielding by a lot.

*Edit* [Because of inaccuracies in Maths done in this post, I deleted this and posted another looooooooong mathematical post below. Please refer to the post below instead.]

 

ahri

I think you could be right, and you shouldn't neglect how you can blow cooldowns when both are active for extra little something. For sure worth a try, I personally can't wait to get slow weapon and a Sigil to give DW a shot, and I'll post everything I'll conclude here.

Btw, I found on Wowhead (not sure how reliable it is) that Berserking is 1.2 PPM.

 

Syrellia

I'm posting so many today. I do realize that the previous posts of mine have so many inaccuracies. I've had some time to do some more napkin maths to analyze this further and to support my theory. Here goes:

Assumptions made:

• Fallen Crusader base PPM: 2 (it seemed that way, I did several non-haste gear 1h tests over 20 - 30 minutes afk period on dummy and the results were pretty close), hence the proc rate by % is wpspd * 2 / 60 where wpspd = weapon base speed.
• Berserking base PPM: 1 hence proc rate by % is wpspd * 1 / 60
• Dual Wielding uses 2.6 / 1.6 weapon speed. 2 Hander uses 3.6 weapon speed.
• Dual Wielding benefit from 15% haste from haste rating (378 haste rating) while 2 Hander benefits from 10% haste (252 haste rating - I know the number seems quite high for 2 handers but for the sake of simplicity I'll choose this numbers anyway. For Dual Wielding I think it's more than easy to achieve that number).
• In raid environment, both of them benefits from 20% haste buff of Imp Icy Talon or Windfury Totem.
• Both are using Blood Presence, therefore no benefit from 15% speed from Unholy Presence.
• In the math I've done below, I choose to round down all the beneficial numbers (hit per minute), and round up all the non-beneficial number (weapon speed delay in seconds).
• Both Dual Wielding and 2 Hander counterpart has expertise capped, and soft hit cap. Dual Wielding has about 9% melee hits (close to 300 hit rating). Therefore the Miss chance of Dual Wielding white damages is: 24% + 8% - 9% - 3% = 20%. The white hit chance is therefore 80%.
• Last but not least, the formulae are taken off WoWwiki.com

Build & Rotation used:
0/13/58 SS build listed on OP. Rotation for each 20 seconds period:

• PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - RP
• SS - SS - SS - RP

So over 20 seconds there are 7 special strikes made, assuming that they all have a chance to proc the rune (that's how it works according to WoWWiki). Over 1 minutes there are 21 special strikes made.

In the first scenario we will ignore Blood-Caked Strike because I have not yet confirmed whether it procs enchants or not. However it is indeed very possible, because it is a special hit (scale with weapon damages) and it will add decent numbers into the proc rates. I will add these at the end of the post for more numbers to crunch on.

Here is the number:

Dual Wielding:

• Main hand weapon speed after buff: 2.6 / [(1.15)(1.20)] = 1.89 (rounded up)
  
• Main hand hits per minute = 60 / 1.89 = 31 hits (rounded down)
  
• Offhand weapon speed after buff: 1.6 / [(1.15)(1.20)] = 1.16 (rounded up)
  
• Offhand hits per minute = 60 / 1.16 = 51 (rounded down)

Main hand with rune of Fallen Crusader:

• Base proc chance = 2.6 * 2 / 60 = 13 / 150
• White damages hit (after misses) = 31 * 0.8 = 24.8
• Real PPM = (24.8 + 21) * 13 / 150 = 3.96 PPM (rounded down)

Off hand with rune of Fallen Crusader:

• Base Proc chance = 1.6 * 2 / 60 = 4 / 75
• White damages hit (after misses) = 51 * 0.8 = 40.8
• Real PPM = 40.8 * 4 / 75 = 2.17 PPM (rounded down)

Therefore we can see with both hands, the PPM are added up to be: 3.96 + 2.17 = 6.13 PPM

Let's compare this to:

2 Hander.

• Weapon speed after buff = 3.6 / [(1.10)*(1.20)] = 2.73 (rounded up)
  
• Base proc chance = 3.6 * 2 / 60 = 9 / 75
  
• White damages per minutes (all hit so there is no misses): = 60 / 2.73 = 21 (rounded down)
  
• Real PPM = (21 + 21) * 9 / 75 = 5.04 PPM

Now let's take this a bit further: since there is no iCD for this proc, it is impossible to predict when the buffs get overwritten or not. All we can do is prey that it won't get overwritten. Under the best scenario, let us analyze the uptime assuming that the buffs overwritten to the minimal:

• At 6.13 procs, 15 seconds per proc, it lasts: 6.13 * 15 = 91.95 (seconds). This is 153.25% uptime.
  
• At 5.04 procs, 15 seconds per proc, it lasts: 5.04 * 15 = 75.6 (seconds). This is 126% uptime.

Those 2 numbers are over 100%. Needless to say, their potentials are "overcapped". They could go up to 100% uptime if you're lucky.

Now, to analyze MH / OH FC / Berserking:

Main hand FC real PPM calculated earlier: 3.96 ppm

Offhand with Berserking enchant:

• Base Proc Chance = 1.6 * 1 / 60 = 2 / 75
• White hit after misses (calculated earlier) = 40.8 per min
• Real PPM = 40.8 * 2 / 75 = 1.08 ppm (rounded down)

• Ideal uptime for main hand (FC): 3.96 * 15 / 60 = 0.99 = 99%
• Ideal uptime for off hand (Berserking): 1.08 * 15 / 60 = 0.27 = 27%

The FC potential coming from main hand is still 99% which is fairly close to 100% "potential cap". In addition we get a nice 27% berserking effect which aren't overwritten and can stack on top of the other proc as well.

------------------------------------------------------

Taking into account of Blood-Caked Strikes, assuming that they proc the buff, since it hits with both main hand and offhand with the damages coming from either hand separately, I'll assume that each one will proc its own buff. Only the hit from MH/OH will have a chance to proc Blood-Caked Strikes so:

Blood-Caked Strikes from MH:

• Strikes per minutes = 24.8 * 30 / 100 = 7 (rounded down)
• Therefore the real PPM of rune of FC = (24.8 + 7 + 21) * 13 / 150 = 4.57 PPM (rounded down)
• Ideal uptime = 4.57 * 15 / 60 = 114.25% (pushed it to over 100%)

Blood-Caked Strikes from OH:

• Strikes per minutes = 40.8 * 30 / 100 = 12 (rounded down)
• Real PPM of FC = (40.8 + 12) * 4 / 75 = 2.81 PPM (rounded down)
• Ideal uptime = 2.81 * 15 / 60 = 70.25%
• Real PPM of Berserking = (40.8 + 12) * 2 / 75 = 1.40 PPM (rounded down)
• Ideal uptime = 1.40 * 15 / 60 = 35%

Blood-Caked Strikes from 2H:

• Strikes per minutes = 21 * 30 / 100 = 6 (rounded down)
• Real PPM of FC = (21 + 21 + 6) * 9 / 75 = 5.76 PPM
• Ideal uptime = 5.76 * 15 / 60 = 144%

• Dual Wielding FC/FC ideal uptime: 114.25 + 70.25 = 184.5%
• Hence the ratio that DW pulls ahead = 184.5 / 144 = 128% (rounded down)

The potential uptime of Dual-Wielding FC/FC, 2-handed FC and Main-hand only FC are all above 100%. Getting full potential or not really bases on RNG now.

Comparison between FC proc and Berserker proc.

Assumption:

• Raid buffed with 1800 strengths.
• Buffs stack additively, so 13% (BoK + Ravenous Dead) is added on top of FC proc.

They both give the same duration (15s). FC procs will give:

1. (1800 * 15 / 100) * 1.13 * 2 = 610 AP (rounded down)

Berserking gives 400 AP flat.

• The ratio FC vs Berserking: 610 / 400 = 152.5%

Therefore the minimum uptime increases of FC by dual wielding FC/FC compared to FC/Berserking in order to offset for effectiveness should be:

• (w/o BCB) 27% * 100 / 152.5 = 17.7% (rounded down)
• (w/ BCB) 35% * 100 / 152.5 = 22.9% (rounded down)

After you have that, FC proves to be superior because of scaling. However, it would appear that there is a kind of "cap" in real life of FC procs because of overwritten procs. So we need more parses to see the difference between the 2, in order to determine which one is best.
The relations between the 2 is described below:

• FCmin. = BerUpTime * 100 / 152.5

Where FCmin. is the minimum FC proc difference between the 2 combos, BerUpTime = Berserker uptime of FC/Ber combo and ofcourse this is to assume that you have 1800 strengths raid-buffed which is end-game Ulduar geared only (currently I'm with Naxx 25 gears and I have only 1650+ strengths raid buffed).

Conclusion: Like I compared above, the potential uptime of all dualwield FC/FC, 2hander and FC on mainhand-only are close to or above 100%. The change in PPM and effect of Rune of FC is an effective nerf to both dual-wielding FC/FC and using 2 hander FC because the buff is bound to be overwritten therefore they can never unleash their full potential. However with dual wielding FC/FC the nerf hits much harder. From what I've seen in real life parses (FC/FC and 2 hander FC), the uptime during boss fights of those are close together (70 - 75% ish).

To do:

More simulations on overwritting effects of procs are to be done and real life parses are to be provided (I'm currently testing FC/Berserking in real life) in order to confirm whether if FC/Berserking could be superior to FC/FC.

To be tested & calculated: If haste and hit increase the reliability of uptime of Fallen Crusader on main-hand only, then, will stacking up tons of them (which most dual wield specs will do) make the FC/Berserking combo reliably superior than FC/FC?

*EDIT: I edited this post because it was pointed out to base on so many guesstimations, and also the conclusion was not very clear (it didn't show what I tried to prove, what's still to be done etc.)*

 

222Fusion

I was wondering what kind of a rotation i should use im using the 13/58 spec plz feel free to armory me, im doing about 2400 dps in a 10 man raid, using this rotation:

PS-IT-OB-BS-BS-DC-DC
PS-IT-OB-IT-IT-IT-dc-dc-dc
With intermittent UB to keep it up all the time. as well as gargoyle after Crusader procs i hit my laothebs shadow and call garg(preferably while in lust)

Ive got 323 hit, which should be hit cap for specials even while DW right?

over 10% haste and im still working on expertise. im at 5.25%

Does it sound like im where im at for dps(where i should be rather?) if not what can i do to improve rotations, i know there has to be a way to throw some SS i there(i notices the specs had changed since i first read this post, so i just barley fixed so i have SS now)

Thanks for you help guys, im a first time poster and long time reader, im not to good at the math yall do i really appreciate it.

Edit: By the way my armory isnt updated yet, i currently have Cast iron shackles for bracers. +42 Str +28 agi +64stam and 29 hit.
and i forgot to mention i have Razore ice for main hand and FC for off.

 

Syrellia

Hi 222Fusion,
I do believe that putting Fallen Crusader on main hand and Razorice on offhand will increase your dps nicely because of uptime described at my previous post. I would rather choose FC/FC on both hands though, since berserking costs kinda much and its effectiveness is yet to be confirmed (I just did the maths earlier).
Also, you're using the spec 0/18/53, which is stated by the author, an essential gear check (refer to the OP post for what stats' required to make it scale as good as - if not faster than other builds). You might want to switch for other specs mentioned in the first post and check out the dps for each and every of them until you get your hands on better gears with the right stats.
323 hit rating is hit capped for melee, and if you have either a shadow priest or a moonkin druid in your raid with Improved Faerie Fire, it should be spell hit capped as well.
If you want to switch for 0/13/58 build, you should look at the first post for the exact build and glyph of choice. The rotation is extremely easy:
PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - UB - HoW + Arcane Torrent (you're a belf, and you can use both of them at the same time) - DC
SS - SS - SS - RP dump
Rinse and repeat
For AoE: (This is what I use)
PS - IT - Pest - DnD - UB - HoW + Arcane Torrent - DC if you got enough RP
SS - SS - BB - BB - RP dump
Rince and repeat. If you don't have DnD refreshed you might want to use BB and SS instead (3 runes exactly). Wait for the DnD to be off cooldown then repeat the rotation.
After getting used to the build, remember to check back with the discussions and play around with your gear/spec/glyph to find what suits you best. The work done here is not the absolute best, and what talents/glyphs you choose is of your choice. I believe what is going on in this thread is development and guidelines to other fellow DKs who enjoy DW-ing.

Also, most of your questions were answered before, so please try to take your time and read through what people have done in this thread before making a post. Thank you.

 

ahri

Mistake I found: "At 6.01 procs..." And you got 6.1 just above.

Overriding procs is quite easy to simulate btw, about 10 lines in any programming language will do. I personally find half of your post not very useful simply because you calculate one part and then heavily guesstimate the rest.

 

grimLox

Back when 0/18/53 was being discussed I actually found that RI on the MH and FC on the OH simmed out better, I think this was due to RI scaling with OB's physical damage(if I remember correctly RI gives a 2% increase to damage). The tests I ran were on the dummy in Ebon Hold after resets to avoid problems with Merciless/Necrosis, etc., each was any wheres from 6-10 minutes in length. I regret not having any SS to support these tests, sorry.

 

222Fusion

thats why i had originally gone with that combo, in my head it made sense, turned out that with MH RI, it procs just enough to keep 5 stacks on for entire raid boss fights, as well as the bonus 2% for special attacks, and FC procs well with a fast OH 1.60 speed before haste. so i found it to be a nice combo, this was all just rationalizations in my head though, nothing to back it up.

@Syrellia, thanks for the reply, i will def try out those rotations, cuz i know i maybe a little under geared for this spec, i meet the min requirements by the OP for it to be decent. I think my Rotations where just wrong. ill let you know.

 

Orlgin

1/18/52 is at the bottom of the OP instead of with the others until I can finish my work. It's a slightly higher DPS version of 0/18/53 that trades Improved Unholy Presence for a point in Subversion and a point in Unholy Blight. Unlike 0/13/58 and 0/17/54, which are proven contenders, 1/18/52 is still theoretical and thus listed as an alternative build. Given the errors of the past, I want to ensure that both my sheet and the simulator both agree that it's a success before I list it as a best build.

Part of that was building a better set. My latest list is on the bottom of the opening poster. It's a little shy of the haste mark I wanted. When I used the spreadsheet for gearing using expected EP values, it actually wanted me to use Clockwork Legs and Darkruned Gloves as BiS instead. This is what I was looking at starting with 10 runic power:

0.0 Plague Strike (25)
1.6 Icy Touch (40)
3.0 Obliterate (65)
4.6 Blood Strike (75)
6.2 Blood Strike (85)
7.8 Unholy Blight (45)

9.4 Death Coil (5)
11.6 Obliterate (30)
13.2 Obliterate (55)
14.8 Death Coil (15)
16.2 Obliterate (40)
17.8 Death Coil (0)

20.0 Plague Strike (15)
21.6 Icy Touch (30)
23.0 Obliterate (55)
24.6 Blood Strike (65)
26.2 Blood Strike (75)
27.8 Unholy Blight (35)

29.2 Horn Of Winter (45)
31.6 Obliterate (70)
33.2 Obliterate (95)
34.8 Death Coil (55)
36.4 Obliterate (80)
38.0 Death Coil (40)

40.0 Plague Strike (55)
41.6 Icy Touch (70)
43.0 Obliterate (95)
44.6 Blood Strike (105)
46.2 Blood Strike (115)
47.8 Unholy Blight (75)

49.2 Death Coil (35)
51.6 Obliterate (60)
53.2 Obliterate (85)
54.8 Death Coil (45)
56.2 Obliterate (70)
57.8 Death Coil (30)

That's a minute. Where best to place a Blood Tap confounds me as does the large amount of dead time. I could drop Haste as the spreadsheet for gearing recommends for more ArP which would reduce downtime. Inserting a Horn of Winter as a seventh move just pushed back rotations too much so if runic power < 40 for a Death Coil, use Horn of Winter worked better.

Someone see a place where I could place Blood Tap without pushing the rotation back? I could always just not use it but that defeats the purpose of having Ghoul Frenzy at all.

It's a work in progress. I know a combination of haste and ArP is ideal for maximizing the effect of duel-wielding so I'm trying to use both as much as possible. I know that generating runic power is the best way to compete with two handed builds so I've been doing that. I feel like I'm missing something but I'm at a loss at the moment.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

drothar

I've been playing around with DW specs, and I came up with this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It probably can't compete with RoR and Gargoyle, but might be a nice alternative to the deep unholy UIP spec if you don't have an enhance shaman. Rotation would be:
GF(PS if GF is up) > IT > PS > BS > BS > IT > DC > DC
PS > IT > PS > IT > IT > IT > DC > DC > DC

The flexibility of IUP specs is very useful when you're fighting the not-patchwerks of Ulduar.

 

Phazon

This build could be good if:
1) There are no frost DK with imp icy talons.
2) there are no shamans whatsoever.

Compare to the 0/17/54 build

You gain:
9% haste over the unimproved WF totem (16% compare to 25%)
10% IT damage (You get 20% but lose 10%)
Alot higher crit rate on IT (KM procc)

You lose:
10% extra damage on every ability
Gargoyle
3% crit
2% melee crit
Higher disease damage

You would lose way to much if there is even an unimproved WF totem in your raid

 

Syrellia

I must have overlooked the discussion about 0/18/53 earlier about RI/FC. I will look more into it now.
@ahri: My calculations show that whether you put the Rune of FC on MH only, MH/OH, or using 2 hander, the ideal uptime (w/o overwrites) for the proc is always going to be over 100%. Therefore the overwrites hurt the proc more in real life than we think it would. This can conclude why doubling the PPM and reducing the effects by half of rune of FC was a big nerfbat to DW-ers who use FC/FC prior to patch.
The calculations above used 1 ppm and 2 ppm for Berserking and FC respectively. Some suggestions said that they were 1.2 ppm and 2.4 ppm instead. If the FC ppm was 2.4, the uptime loss by overwriting effects is even more, and that having a main hand only FC reaching close to 100% level of uptime is even more possible. Also, the uptime for Berserking is even more so it may start pulling ahead even further. It's only assumption.
The only problem is the "uptime loss due to overwrites" does not scale linearly, and is unpredictable. Hence it cannot be calculated, but by looking at the real life data, estimations could be made. That is what I am trying to do at the moment: To estimate the uptime of main-hand only rune of FC.
@drothar: There has been so many discussions over that build already. I came up with the same mistake at first too. Click here for the post of Orlgin which explains in detail what you gain/lose by using that build. Ofcourse it would still be a viable build if you raid runs without an enhancement shammy and still with a lot of melee inc. a blood dk and/or MM hunter.