Gear question I didn't see discussed earlier:
How are you valuating the top end damage for main hand vs the weapon's overall dps?
Pre 3.1 the rule was basically higher dps always in the MH because both weapons were fast. Now, I have a [Remorse] but my only slow is an [Angry Dread].
My assumption would be to MH Remorse because of the significant disparity in DPS and offhand the old reliable [Hailstorm]. That make sense or is the lost SS damage to a fast weapon too much for the dps of Remorse to make up for?
Edit for clarity-would be using SS and not Oblit in rotation if that wasn't clear.
I stand at 12 expertise which I think is extremely low so would it be a huge dps loss if I regem for expertise?
What gems do you have now? It's impossible to measure wether or not you should regem if we don't know what you're currently gemmed for. Also we have no idea what spec you are (Some specs suffer more from having low expertise than others) which also makes helping alot harder.
I'd say you try to gear for expertise rather than gem for it since I seem to recollect strenght being (by far?) the best gem to put in your gear(after achieving metagem req. ofcourse). Feel free to prove me wrong though!
What gems do you have now? It's impossible to measure wether or not you should regem if we don't know what you're currently gemmed for. Also we have no idea what spec you are (Some specs suffer more from having low expertise than others) which also makes helping alot harder.
I'd say you try to gear for expertise rather than gem for it since I seem to recollect strenght being (by far?) the best gem to put in your gear(after achieving metagem req. ofcourse). Feel free to prove me wrong though!
Well you can see my armory link under my name. Last time I put my armory link in the post I got notified that it's useless.
I play SS dw spec and I have gemmed for strenght and some hit rating. I have been trying to get some expertise gear but it has been pretty difficult. I believe that I will get t8 chest soon though. The reason I asked that questing was that I had a problem with gearing for it and I wanted to ask if gemming/(enchanting) for it could be a solution.
Expertise vs Strength is essentially a consistency vs power question. On average, strength will win out. It's a much more powerful stat being almost twice as powerful. However, consecutive misses can really screw up a rotation. Expertise grants consistency: your DPS will yo-yo less but your top end won't be as high as with strength.
Some players prefer consistency over top DPS potential. They will do less DPS most of the time but there will be times where they beat the less consistent ones and they will point to those as saying they are competitive. That's not what this website is about. If you want to be the best, you take the best stats. In this case, it's Strength.
One thing I would change in a heartbeat is that awful spell penetration gem. I'm hoping that is a placeholder just for socket bonus. You get no benefit from spell penetration in almost all cases. They won't stop partial resists at all. See my FAQ in the OP for some wisdom from Zurm. The spell hit cap is 288.53. You can safely change it to +8 Str gem instead for the socket bonus. Being 0.53 rating from the spell hit cap won't be noticeable. If you are willing to trade 12 stamina for 2 Strength, you can actually skip the socket bonus and get +16 strength instead.
Your expertise will come from T8 chest. Just be patient and get it as soon as you can.
One thing I would do is put Razorice on the MH and Fallen Crusader on the OH. You'll get more mileage out of RI that way. It sims better that way.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Expertise vs Strength is essentially a consistency vs power question. On average, strength will win out. It's a much more powerful stat being almost twice as powerful. However, consecutive misses can really screw up a rotation. Expertise grants consistency: your DPS will yo-yo less but your top end won't be as high as with strength.
Some players prefer consistency over top DPS potential. They will do less DPS most of the time but there will be times where they beat the less consistent ones and they will point to those as saying they are competitive. That's not what this website is about. If you want to be the best, you take the best stats. In this case, it's Strength.
One thing I would change in a heartbeat is that awful spell penetration gem. I'm hoping that is a placeholder just for socket bonus. You get no benefit from spell penetration in almost all cases. They won't stop partial resists at all. See my FAQ in the OP for some wisdom from Zurm. The spell hit cap is 288.53. You can safely change it to +8 Str gem instead for the socket bonus. Being 0.53 rating from the spell hit cap won't be noticeable. If you are willing to trade 12 stamina for 2 Strength, you can actually skip the socket bonus and get +16 strength instead.
Your expertise will come from T8 chest. Just be patient and get it as soon as you can.
One thing I would do is put Razorice on the MH and Fallen Crusader on the OH. You'll get more mileage out of RI that way. It sims better that way.
I couldn't find a hit rating + stamina gem back then and raid was about to start and I just thought that I wont lose anything if I put a spell pen instead of stamina. That gem is for my meta + some hit rating.
I like to keep that hit rating gem there because there might be times when we cant get a boomkin or sp and my hit gear (titansteel helm) is just under the cap. Thanks for that info about my weapon enchants, i will change them when I'm logging on today.
edit: @Flamingsage: I got a noticable dps gain when I tried on dummy FC/FC vs FC/RI
I'm really stuck on weather or not to go from my 0/18/53 build to the 0/13/58 build. My DPS in raids is fine and i usually come top of single target boss fights like patchwork and XT. But would my DPS be better if I was to get rid of the little amount of ArP gear I've got and go for the SS build rather the Obliterate build.
Here is 1 result of the FC/Berserking combo: Click here
Sadly, while the uptime of Fallen Crusader varies from 55% (mostly moving fights) to 75% (mostly stationary fights), it seems to base a lot on luck. Sometimes I get more uptime than the others even on the same fight (yes, my guild died over and over again on the same boss >.< ). In addition to that the WWS report was not even complete (like XT-002 death was reported at 3M dmg... wtf), so only like 2 fights it gives the numbers which are Razorscale (moving - uptime 55%) and Kologarn (stationary - 75% uptime). Basically there's no telling from the parses I've pasted, but if it really goes up to 75% then we gain a bonus of berserking proc, while if it stays at 55% then we actually have a loss of dps.
It would seem that dual wielding FC/FC and 2 hander using FC give out more reliable uptime (72 - 75% ish according to all the WWS I've ever seen). You can check Fargom's above for the dual wield parses, and many more 2 handed parses which aren't hard to find.
Maybe FC/FC still has its obvious advantage because most of the fights now are mobile, even if it could've done a little bit less dps in ideal stationary fight.
Also I noticed my DPS' not very up to standard. I must've been doing something wrong in 0/13/58. I am looking forward to switch for 0/17/54 but it would seem impossible for me to because the sigil never drops from XT for me (although I'd be the only 1 wanting it), and with my raid progression right now it would seem impossible for me to get 2x any tier 8 let alone getting optimal pieces.
Bumping this from a few pages back with a (hopefully) not stupid question this time.
Originally Posted by Kyruski
Here are the Stat Weights for 0/17/54 with the Spell Hit Cap already reached.
******************EP CALCULATOR************************
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 306
EP :Agility = 54
EP :HitRating = 115
EP :CritRating = 121
EP :HasteRating = 124
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 84
EP :ExpertiseRating = 118
EP :WeaponDPS = 636
Now just looking at the stat weights, you may think that 0/17/54 scales better, but you have to remember, these are AP Equivalency values, So One build might gain more out of AP than the other, which is why they somewhat even out. But as you can see, Hit is still a pretty good Stat.
In light of the increase on the AP on Malice, does it replace Vulmir as second best in slot for 17/54, or is it at least competitive for the spot? Working those numbers I came up with...
Vulmir: 131601.8 EP vs
Malice: 132325 EP.
I don't know how to weigh the difference in .1 speed, though.
I'm really stuck on weather or not to go from my 0/18/53 build to the 0/13/58 build. My DPS in raids is fine and i usually come top of single target boss fights like patchwork and XT. But would my DPS be better if I was to get rid of the little amount of ArP gear I've got and go for the SS build rather the Obliterate build.
After the change to t7 4 pc, I think I am going to actually try Oblit out for next reset and see if it ends up performing better than my current SS based build. RP has been really hard to build since I moved to T8 4 pc.
What kind of numbers are you producing with your current set up? Any WWS I can compare with my own numbers?
After the change to t7 4 pc, I think I am going to actually try Oblit out for next reset and see if it ends up performing better than my current SS based build. RP has been really hard to build since I moved to T8 4 pc.
What kind of numbers are you producing with your current set up? Any WWS I can compare with my own numbers?
My guild is going Uld10 tonight I think. I will do a WWS report on that.
Bumping this from a few pages back with a (hopefully) not stupid question this time.
In light of the increase on the AP on Malice, does it replace Vulmir as second best in slot for 17/54, or is it at least competitive for the spot? Working those numbers I came up with...
Vulmir: 131601.8 EP vs
Malice: 132325 EP.
I don't know how to weigh the difference in .1 speed, though.
In 0/17/54, It isn't too reliant on Weapon Speed, so it shouldn't be too much difference. Off the top of my head, I would be tempted to say just take whichever one you can get. They should be pretty close for 0/17/54. Now with 0/13/58 or 1/18/52, I would expect Vulmir to come out ahead.
Also about Caress of Insanity. It has been changed to a 178.9 DPS weapon with Weapon speed of 2.7, along iwth some stat changes. It is the slowest 1h weapon in Ulduar to my knowlegde. Before the change in DPS and speed, it was contending for the top MH. With the changes, I can assure you that it is infact BiS.
I edited my huge post earlier POST to delete the "guessing" part and made the conclusion a little bit more clear, including the to do list & testings.
I am wondering: Which sigil do you use for each spec? For 0/17/54 sure Vengeful Heart is the best of the best. That does not hold true for 0/13/58 does it? I got a dps decrease when switching for that sigil from Awareness in my sim. Same question for 1/18/52 as well.
I only noticed that DC don't get fired as often in 0/13/58, they dont crit much and they don't have crit multiplier like SS does. SS hits more often, have extra damages from diseases (which modifies the bonus dmg as well), have crit multiplier (extra 30% crit dmg) so does that make Awareness better than Vengeful heart for that particular build?
@ Syrellia: Awareness for 0/13/58. Vengeful Heart for 01/18/52 because of the extra runic power it generates.
@ Flamingsage: My numbers show that even with your current gear, you are better off with 0/13/58. You should regear for less armor penetration and go 0/13/58 if that is what you are asking. That said, I'm looking forward to that WWS as well. The more information I have for real life results, the better I can make my information.
Don't forget that Malice is 179.0 DPS and not 178.8 when calculating which spec it's better for. There is a big difference in DPS weights between the two if I remember correctly.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
This and this are WWS's of, basically, all the early bosses of Ulduar 25-man, up to Mimiron. Server lag was very bad the first night, in particular, and I had just respec'd to 13/58 without experimenting with the rotation - I believe my dps could be improved slightly.
If you armory me, my current gear is the gear I was wearing, except for the neck, which I purchased last night. For the parse, I was wearing a Bold Scarlet-socketed Maly 25 quest neck reward.
I did not "pad" any meters working on trash damage during any bosses (I'm not getting into the argument of whether that is even relevant).
Unfortunately, my guild's dps is mediocre with some above average moments, so there is room for improvement. Our healers have a major problem with situational awareness currently, thus several attempts on some bosses. However, hopefully the numbers will show what 13/58 is capable of currently.
From Ignis fight I can see that the dps is quite decent. I have a few suggestions though:
Sigil of Awareness seems to work better with your current build so swapping that in might increase your dps.
Have you tried 0/18/53? It will work nicely with your current gears, with Sigil of Vengeful Heart and 2 pieces tier 8, for more death coil damages.
Glyph of Icy Touch can be swapped for Glyph of Unholy Blight - depending on what rotation you use ofcourse.
Should pull points somewhere (Morbidity, Desecration or else where depending on your taste) to put on 2 Epidemic. For 0/13/58 it perfects you rotation nicely (21s diseases, you can reapply diseases every 20th seconds to do the most SS you can).
Rotations are quite simple (given that you get Epidemic ofcourse): PS > IT > SS > BS > BS > RP dump > SS > SS >SS > RP > repeat. Note that after you use 3 SS then you will have some slack time, slap in some cooldowns if you wish.
After done with these, please get more WWS report. The more WWS reports provided the better. Thanks!
From Ignis fight I can see that the dps is quite decent. I have a few suggestions though:
Sigil of Awareness seems to work better with your current build so swapping that in might increase your dps.
Have you tried 0/18/53? It will work nicely with your current gears, with Sigil of Vengeful Heart and 2 pieces tier 8, for more death coil damages.
Glyph of Icy Touch can be swapped for Glyph of Unholy Blight - depending on what rotation you use ofcourse.
Should pull points somewhere (Morbidity, Desecration or else where depending on your taste) to put on 2 Epidemic. For 0/13/58 it perfects you rotation nicely (21s diseases, you can reapply diseases every 20th seconds to do the most SS you can).
Rotations are quite simple (given that you get Epidemic ofcourse): PS > IT > SS > BS > BS > RP dump > SS > SS >SS > RP > repeat. Note that after you use 3 SS then you will have some slack time, slap in some cooldowns if you wish.
After done with these, please get more WWS report. The more WWS reports provided the better. Thanks!
I'm aware the Awareness sigil might put out more, but from my own experience simming it's a very minimal dps increase - I just chalk it to user-preference.
I considered going 18/53, or 1/18/52, but honestly, to achieve at least 10% armor pen meant cutting my haste down to 10% or below, which I didn't want to do.
I'll try Epidemic next time I'm testing this spec.
The rotation is actually very simple, however it is different from the priority-heavy 2h frost rotation that I came from.
Sorry I actually was thinking of 0/17/54 which is a heavy RP-generating spec. Combined with Vengeful Heart and 2 pieces tier 8 which you currently have, it might be the best early-on. Other specs might catch up when we achieve closer to BiS gears.
The rotation is still based on priority but I agree there's no Rime proc or Killing Machines. However should there be anytime during mobile fights that your diseases drop off, renew them or reset the "rotation" I stated above. Unholy Blight is still a prior over DC but should be renewed only when it's dropping off (hence why Glyph of Unholy Blight gives u a good bonus).
I find that glyph of IT give less than decent amount of extra RP if following the rotation I stated above, or priority properly (per 20 seconds we use only 1 IT, so it's 10 RP per 20 secs or 0.5 RP per sec). It takes 80 seconds to build up enough for 1 extra DC. Compared to glyph of UB, increase the time of UB from 20s -> 30s, every 60s we save 1 death coil. So it's pretty much superior in that sense. And UB is always a dps increase over DC if you use sigil of awareness and pull points from Morbidity to put in Epidemic (I haven't done calculations in details yet - sorry). It's up to personal taste though.
question has anyone tried a 0/21/50 build based around icy touch and death coil spams? the rotation being IT IT PS PS BS BS DC dump IT IT PS PS IT IT
i've been testing it out in basically greens and been able to get to 2k dps at lvl 80 basic idea is since i have icy touch glyph and points in chill of grave my runic power build up is immense
question has anyone tried a 0/21/50 build based around icy touch and death coil spams? the rotation being IT IT PS PS BS BS DC dump IT IT PS PS IT IT
i've been testing it out in basically greens and been able to get to 2k dps at lvl 80 basic idea is since i have icy touch glyph and points in chill of grave my runic power build up is immense
Can you link the details? If you are going as far as 50 points in Unholy tree, why not go for Gargoyle? It's 1 point any it's vastly superior than any skills can be taken in frost tree tier 5 (that's the 21th point you wanna reach right?)
There's already an established build 0/17/54 posted in original post, and it's based around spamming IT and death coil. Please check back and compare with your specs to see what you gain/lose.
EDIT: BTW testing on dummy shows nothing. Everything has to be taken into raid settings. You can ofcourse use simulations to predict what's gonna happen but real raid parses are of the best value.
is the build im talking about and the reason i dont use gargoyle is because it seems situational at best and most of the time dies to the plethora of aoe dmg on boss encounters I like killing machine due to the fact that since i use icy touch so often the fact that its my only frost attack means any time killing machine procs that i will have a crit with icy touch I also use the icy touch glyph from the grizzly hill daily area
I mean the icy touch sigil
Last edited by Sulchwihantoki : 05/21/09 at 12:07 PM.
is the build im talking about and the reason i dont use gargoyle is because it seems situational at best and most of the time dies to the plethora of aoe dmg on boss encounters I like killing machine due to the fact that since i use icy touch so often the fact that its my only frost attack means any time killing machine procs that i will have a crit with icy touch I also use the icy touch glyph from the grizzly hill daily area
If you use it correctly then Gargoyle can increase your dps nicely. It can be used once every 3 minutes so you can use it 1 - 2 - 3 times during a boss fight depending on who you are fighting. It is not situational, it is mandatory, and it will not be killed by AoE if you use it correctly during a boss fight. There are only certain AoE that kills it (very limitted), and I found it hard to believe that I ever got my gargoyle killed because of AoE.
Killing Machines, at best increase your Icy Touch crit chance by 20%. You don't even have Glacier Rot which is deeper into frost tree so your Icy Touch will do very very little damage. Also putting all 4 points KM mean that you lose out on other dps increase talents, like Bone Shield, Ghoul Frenzy, Wandering Plague as well. They all scale nicely as you gear up, and Bone Shield will give ALL your damages a nice boost too.
Pre-nerf, the IT damages were reliably high. Now it's very very low.
so would it be more prudent to go with the death coil sigil from grizzly hill then? also for this build i was thinking 2 fast weapons with cinder and razor ice over a slow/fast or is the proc rate of cinder to unreliable. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
would that be a better build then? and would my rotation still be the same? Also what is your opinion on improved unholy presence i found that without it i had alot down time even with rune power dumps into death coil
Due to real-life concerns, I need to drastically limit my time here. Thanks to all that contributed here. I ask that the moderators close and lock this thread so someone who has time to maintain a current OP can start a new one. Thanks also to the moderators here who have been patient with me and let me keep this thread as long as I have.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
05/19/09, 4:53 PM
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