DW Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 7

Sinic · 04/05/09, 10:54 PM

This is my first post ever and I would like to say thank you everyone for your hard work and dedication to this site. I have been visiting this thread for quite a while and finally got the guts to ask a question. We all know unholy puts out the best aoe out of the three talent trees, but my question is with dual specs coming out is anyone thinking of making an aoe build(unholy) and a single target boss build. My thought is this. When I fight single target bosses my dps lowers slightly and I make up for it in aoe trash pulls and aoe type boss fights. I'm looking to maximize the dual specs option to make a build for aoe and single target and I was wondering if any of you had a build for the best single target boss fights (maybe blood) and the best possible aoe build. I like what I'm reading about 0/10/61 and 12/0/59 as a great unholy build. Are any of you thinking of using duel specs the way I am and if so what are your thoughts and builds?

Kyruski · 04/05/09, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Qael

The main problem that i am seeing with the 10/10/51 DnD build is that a big chuck of your damage is relying on the boss standing still for you most of the fight. On a fight such as Grobullus or Grand Widow there would be many times that your DnD would only be allowed to do about half its damage. I have a feeling movement fights are going to become more and more regular in Ulduar and in the higher tier raids. Which is going to really hurt the 10/10/51 spec if you are using DnD in the rotation.

They said in his edit that this isn't a DnD build. They said that their priority was UB>DC>Diseases>IT>PS>BS.

On another note, How much are we looking DnD builds? Have we somewhat moved on from DnD? I'm just curious.

Kithus · 04/06/09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kyruski

They said in his edit that this isn't a DnD build. They said that their priority was UB>DC>Diseases>IT>PS>BS.

On another note, How much are we looking DnD builds? Have we somewhat moved on from DnD? I'm just curious.

I can't take a D&D build seriously for many reason.

1. As Qael said in movement fights it's not going to be efficient at all.

2. It's got a threat modifier which means, if we are pulling competative DPS, then our threat may become an issue on stationary fights.

3. This is just my personal opinion from the numbers I've gathered but if you are trying to base a DW build around blood presence instead of imp unholy you're doing it wrong. D&D to use blood presence and not waste resources, to me, is a square peg/round hole scenario. Some people are trying their damnedest to make it fit, probably because they're still too stuck on the mindset that unholy presence is bad.

DW builds are about, or should be, more smaller hits than the 2H guys. Most of the builds I'm looking at double or triple the RP gen of two handed builds once they move away from 4pcT7.5 and, as a result, see a substantial increase in DC damage while keep UB up full time. Think of it this way, where do we already win over 2H builds? White damage. Why? They hit harder but he hit way more often. Model your yellow attacks after that and the numbers start to add up.

Our IT + PS is not better than their SS anymore but their SS is only producing 15-20 RP. Our IT + PS is producing 30-40 depending on build. Our IT + PS + .5 DC is certainly equal to or better than their SS. My current gear + DC sigil (If I have to use frozen conscience for my numbers then we'd have to assume 2H unholy is using arthritic binding imo):

Average Damage:
IT - 2100
PS - 1200
DC - 4500 * .5 = 2250

2100 + 1200 + 2250 = 5550. This isn't even current BiS gear. I'm sure some of you could sim numbers higher than that with the 10/10/51 spec and my rotation. That's a worst case comparison for us as well. When they're using their 2 death runes for a SS we're popping out 2 ITs so add another 900 to the total for that one. The best part is we're doing all this with a 9 sec rune cooldown and a 1 sec GCD. If we're matching them or even close to matching them total damage rune for rune without wasting any resources we're coming out ahead overall.

Edit: Just wanted to add that's average damage from each move hit or crit over a 24 hour sim.

Kyruski · 04/06/09, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kithus

Jibba Jabba

Have you tried phasing UB out of your rotation? From my sims, I've been seeing that UB is a DPS loss when doing a DC Spam build.

Also I asked before but I don't think I got an answer but did you try MH Fast vs Slow on the newest version of Kahorie's Sim because I know in versions prior to 0.7.5, there was a problem with MH weapon damage being normalized so that's where you could've gotten the boost/dps increase that you saw because I've been doing sims with the newest version and Slow vs Fast seems to still be non-trivial. Both produce damage within about 20-40 dps IIRC from my Sims. With older versions, I was seeing Slow doing 5.2-5.3k DPS with MH being ~16% and with Fast was doing 5.5-5.6k with MH being ~20%. All I was changing was the speed from 1.6 to 2.4. So not only was it doing 4% more damage, it was doing 4% more damage of a higher number.

Orlgin · 04/06/09, 3:18 PM

You are comparing two GCDs to one, Kithus. That's comparing a apple to two apples. We use DPS to measure our success. His attack does more DPS than yours. If he can fill his GCDs, he is doing more DPS than you. You are also assuming he will break 4pc T7. Right now, theorycrafters are saying T8 isn't an upgrade or very little due to the power difference in the set bonuses.

DnD does a ton of DPS in one attack. If you can fill GCDs, it's a dramatic DPS increase. We already know that it's more for a stationary fight.

Kithus · 04/06/09, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

You are comparing two GCDs to one, Kithus. That's comparing a apple to two apples. We use DPS to measure our success. His attack does more DPS than yours. If he can fill his GCDs, he is doing more DPS than you. You are also assuming he will break 4pc T7. Right now, theorycrafters are saying T8 isn't an upgrade or very little due to the power difference in the set bonuses.

DnD does a ton of DPS in one attack. If you can fill GCDs, it's a dramatic DPS increase. We already know that it's more for a stationary fight.

You're comparing 1.5 sec GCDs to 1 sec GCDs. Even when 2H builds can fill all their GCDs they have less. GCDs are a non-issue in the equation because neither build is letting any runes or RP rot. To look at it another way the 2H build can get SS + DC (If the RP is there) in 3 seconds and the DW build will get IT + PS + DC in that time. You can't compare on the basis of GCD without completely ignoring unholy presence.

I am assuming either 2H breaks the set bonus or DW gets a huge bonus from not only getting a set bonus that works for the spec but also improved stats. Either way the set bonus advantage 2H has is reduced significantly. I know if I stay DW that 2pcT8.5 will be the first thing I'm looking for since DC will be my main nuke.

As for DnD I've yet to see a rotation that uses all GCDs with it. Beyond that it's still going to lose massive DPS against a boss that has to be moved. It also has the threat modifier which can be problematic on any fight where you have adds joining mid fight or even a fight where the tank might lose threat time for any reason.

Kyr:

I'll try taking UB out and simming it again. That would free me up that point for ghoul frenzy at least. Thank you for pointing out the sim update for the MH weapon speed. I had thought the difference seemed odd. Slow/Fast now sims slightly above fast/fast but it's not a wide margin by any means.

Edit: Removing unholy blight simmed 10 DPS higher in my current gear. I honestly can't see why though. I'll post my math on DC versus UB later when I have a minute and see if someone can find any errors with it.

Ananais · 04/06/09, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by Kithus

3. This is just my personal opinion from the numbers I've gathered but if you are trying to base a DW build around blood presence instead of imp unholy you're doing it wrong. D&D to use blood presence and not waste resources, to me, is a square peg/round hole scenario. Some people are trying their damnedest to make it fit, probably because they're still too stuck on the mindset that unholy presence is bad.

No offense, Kithus, but I think that pigeonholing BP OR UP to weapon-style is a bit closed-minded. The name of the game for DKs is how to maintain the highest and best use of each GCD in a given build. In just about every build I've seen, Melee + Pet damage makes up less than 50% of our overall output, usually less than 40%. Everything else is tied to RP and Rune usage, making those the elephant in the room, so to speak. So if the use of our GCDs is going to dictate the majority of our damage-effectiveness, then our efforts should be focused on that portion of our damage. And in regards to RP/Rune damage, the rule of thumb is that BP will always be greater than UP in cases where UP cannot use enough additional quality GCDs to overcome BP's 15% damage. Rune/RP rot, as you say, doesn't factor in, but GCDs certainly do. Up until now BP has been superior in every major rotation with the exception of 21/50 DRM 2H Frost builds because of the sheer amount of heavy hitting GCDs they had at their disposal. The nerf to IT and buff to OB pushes them back to Blood because they have fewer GCDs to use and that fits nicely within the 13s BP rotation, affording them an extra 15% damage. The talent buff to UP certainly changes the game, but it changes it only for 2H and DW Unholy builds, and it changes based on abilities used.

For example, something to consider is that, in IUP, the faster GCD and faster rune cooldown affords your 2H unholy build two additional SSs (40 RP) in RP over 20s compared to the additional IT+PS DC (35 RP) that your DW would get. So the DW IT+PS build needs to generate enough RP every 20s to generate that additional 5 RP plus enough additional RP and GCDs to overcome 2H's extra SS damage. And 2H unholy will very likely be using IUP. Using the above rule of thumb, if it can generate more than 15% of equal hitting base attacks in the same time period, then UP > BP. 7 SS vs. 5 SS is definitely more than 15%, and 6 vs. 4 still holds IUP the victor should the build use an IT+PS to ensure disease uptime.

Where the DND build becomes a difficult beast in this regard is that it has a 15s cooldown that ideally must be used every time it's up. It's a build that comes up short on available cooldowns because of how abilities must be cycled around that cooldown. Using IUP in that case, even with the additional runes and faster GCD, it doesn't allow for flexibility or additional abilities in the rotation without delaying a clockwork DND. So essentially you're trading 15% damage done from all sources for 15% more haste for your pets, and that's it. Now if IUP reduced ability cooldowns by 10%, that would be a different story. So there's an example where IUP can't generate enough additional hard hitting GCDs to outperform BP for a DW build for deep unholy, but can in a 2H SS build.

As for as whether or not the DND approach is viable, I would argue that if it can be shown in live 3.1 tests against stationary targets that it can outperform other DW rotations, then it's worth using in a stationary target situation. What's going to allow us to contribute the most to our performance in raids is our ability to bring the right tools to the job. If one rotation and presence does better against stationary targets, and another rotation and presence does better in mobile fights, then we learn both and use both where appropriate.

Lollersk8er · 04/06/09, 8:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ananais

DnD

I've made a DnD build in my sheet, just for fun. It sucks a lot, as expected. Only use Dnd if you actually want to aoe.
Please don't talk about DnD anymore.

Kyruski · 04/06/09, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ananais

Jibba Jabba

I don't know if I'm misinterpreting this or not but are you saying IUP for the DC Spam builds is not desirable? Because it seems to be doing well in regards to producing RP for DCs. You could try to do such a rotation in BP but you'll either lose out on A. RP or B. Shorter rotations. The would be somewhere around 11.5-12secs and I was always under the impression that smaller rotations as long as there is very minimal to no downtime is best. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

Orlgin · 04/06/09, 11:37 PM

The simulator currently cannot correctly do a DnD build. It will only fire DnD when all three runes are up simultaneously. If you even have to wait 0.4 sec to do a DnD, it won't fire it but something else instead. It's not smart enough to determine waiting that 0.4 sec and using DnD would be a higher DPS total. It does what it can and moves on. In other words, you can't sim it. You have to do the work itself.

After looking at the various possibilities, I realized that trying to do DnD every 15 seconds just doesn't work. Having an empty GCD is just bad. The whole purpose of DnD is to make limited GCDs do more damage.

If you want to try 10/10/51 w/ DnD, that's up to you. I currently suggest trying this:

SS -> BB -> PS -> IT -> BB -> DC -> DC
DnD -> PS -> IT -> BB -> DC -> DC

It generates 158 runic power and uses 160. If you Blood Tap for Icy Touch once per minute, you will never run out. Just start with 40 runic power and you'll be fine. Obviously change it while Gargoyle is out but otherwise, it's decent. It's obviously better for stationary targets.

But I'm thinking that 0/1X/5X is a better starting point. Ideas to improve these specs can be tested on the simulator which makes it much easier. They also don't care as much if the fight is a moving fight versus a stationary one.

I'm going to put the 0/18/53 on the front page. It sims with proper gear as well as any other build posted here and scales better. When something better comes up, I can change it.

Edit: That's with 4 pc T7. Obviously when you break 4 pc T7, you can alter the rotation by adding Reaping and using a BS/IT for Blood Runes to make up the difference.

Edit: All the hate on Death N Decay intrigues me. Here's scaling for DnD:

0.0475 is the base scaling per tick. It gets 20% from Impurity, 5% from Desecration, 2% from Bone Shield, 30% from Crypt Fever (like Unholy Blight, it counts as a disease), 13% from Ebon Plaguebringer, 10% from Black Ice, and 15% from Blood Presence. Total: 0.113 per tick. Ten ticks means AP scaling is 1.13.

So you have an attack that has a base of 620 damage and AP scaling of 1.13. How exactly is this bad? Especially since ticks actually have the ability to crit. That's insane. Even if they fixed the "counting as a disease for Crypt Fever" on the PTR (or hotfixed it), it still has scaling of 0.872.

I agree that DnD isn't very good for heavy movement fights. But it's the best scaling spell that Deathknights have by leaps and bounds. If you think it's awful, you need to check your spreadsheet for errors.

Ananais · 04/07/09, 3:37 AM

Apparently the point I was trying to make was lost because I mentioned DND in my post. I was not arguing for or against the viability of any builds. I was responding to a post that stated that trying to make DW work in BP was wrong. My intent was to warn about making generalizations about what builds function better in what presences by showing examples of various builds that have broken those assumptions. What's important is that there may very well be a build that shows its face down the road in 3.1 that is far better for DW in BP than in IUP. If I knew what it was, I'd post it. But if we don't allow for the possibility that that's the case, then we'll never find it and be doing ourselves a disservice. Simple as that.

Sekke · 04/07/09, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kithus

Our IT + PS is not better than their SS anymore but their SS is only producing 15-20 RP. Our IT + PS is producing 30-40 depending on build. Our IT + PS + .5 DC is certainly equal to or better than their SS. My current gear + DC sigil (If I have to use frozen conscience for my numbers then we'd have to assume 2H unholy is using arthritic binding imo):

With the current way T8 is itemized, simulations have shown that T7 will be barely better, so if you're talking about RP be sure to keep in mind that min/maxing 2H Unholy will (at this point, things could change) mean having 4P T7.

Kithus · 04/07/09, 10:03 AM

As far asn UP vs BP goes I apologize if I gave the impression that BP should not be tested. I've run quite a few sims with builds that use BP. The only one that theoretically performs better in BP is a DnD build and the caution was that we're trying to use what is essentially a stationary tanking tool to DPS. That said it is my personal opinion that, unless there is a major talent change somewhere, there won't be a really viable DW build that makes use of BP. That is my opinion and I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. I know I'll still keep testing my builds in blood just to be sure.

With the current way T8 is itemized, simulations have shown that T7 will be barely better, so if you're talking about RP be sure to keep in mind that min/maxing 2H Unholy will (at this point, things could change) mean having 4P T7.

I think I've addressed this before but again. If 2h unholy isn't upgrading out of their T7.5 to keep set bonuses then DW will take an advantage in having a set bonus that works for them in 2pc8.5 and improved stats on 4 gear slots by using higher iLevel pieces.

I'm going to put the 0/18/53 on the front page. It sims with proper gear as well as any other build posted here and scales better. When something better comes up, I can change it

10/10/51 DC spam is still simming higher than 0/18/53 and does so with the best currently known ulduar gear. 0/18/53 should outscale it at some point but there's no gear known yet that will do it.

Kyruski · 04/07/09, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Kithus

10/10/51 DC spam is still simming higher than 0/18/53 and does so with the best currently known ulduar gear. 0/18/53 should outscale it at some point but there's no gear known yet that will do it.

I've been Simming the build 0/17/54 in UP. Glyphs are on the side but for those of you who are lazy, I use Glyphs of Dark Death, Ghoul, and Icy Touch for Major Glyphs and Glyphs of Blood Tap, Raise Dead, and Horn of Winter for Minor Glyps. Against 10/10/51, it seems to be doing more DPS. I did 5 Sims of 10/10/51 with 200ms, 5 Sims of 10/10/51 with 0ms, 5 Sims of 0/17/54 with 200ms, and 5 Sims of 0/17/54 with 0ms. Same Gear, Same Rotation, Same Presence, Everything was the same except for talent distribution. Each Sim was 24hours. Here are the results:

Latency	Build	10/10/51	0/17/54
0ms		5366.2 avg DPS	5450.8 avg DPS
200ms		5227.6 avg DPS	5311.0 avg DPS

As you can see, the 0/17/54 build does ~100 avg DPS more than the 10/10/51 build. I believe this is because the 0/17/54 build is able to generate 22.8 more RP than the 10/10/51 build in 18 seconds because of Chill of the Grave. Each IT is generating an additional 5 RP. It follows a priority system of:

Death Coil>Blood Plague>Frost Fever>Icy Touch>Blood Strike>Plague Strike

Though it is a priority system, on Live in 3.1, it would probably turn out to be easiest doing a rotation as such:

PS>IT>BS>DC>PS>IT>BS>DC
PS>IT>IT>DC>PS>IT>IT>DC>DC

That's 6 ITs in an 18 second rotation, each generating an additional 5 RP. That's 30 RP extra thanks to CotG. Then we have to look at Butchery's RP generation with 10/10/51 since 0/17/54 doesn't receive it. It generates 2 RP every 5 seconds. To make it simple, CotG generates an additional 150 RP every 90 seconds. In 90 seconds, Butchery generates 36 RP. 150-36=114. So 0/17/54 is generating 114 more RP every 90 seconds than 10/10/51 or 22.8 more RP every 18 seconds. That's an extra ~.57 DCs per 18 seconds or an extra DC once every ~31.6 seconds.

0/17/54 also gains Nerves of Steel which gives not only a boost to OH weapon damage, but also 3% more melee Hit than 10/10/51.

You can choose to max out either Wandering Plague or Desecration with the 3 spare talent points in Unholy, but I found that 4/5 Desecration 3/3 WP provided better DPS. It's a matter of ~25-35 DPS between 5/5 Desecration 2/3 Wandering Plague and 4/5 Desecration 3/3 Wandering Plague in favor of 4/5 Desecration 3/3 Wandering Plague. I don't take Outbreak since it doesn't give as much DPS per point as putting those points in Desecration or Wandering Plague. I might want to switch 4/5 Desecration to 3/5 Desecration 1/1 GF if it seems that GF is a DPS increase. I'd probably use GF once every 27 secs or once every 36 secs instead of a PS since it will most likely outweigh the 5 RP and PS Damage. I'm leaning towards 27 secs so that it's always up.

The one downside that I see to this build over 10/10/51 is that 0/17/54 is generating ~950 more TPS due to no Subversion. I took the TPS from the 20 Sims I did early and these were the results:

Latency	Build	10/10/51	0/17/54
0ms		2646.8 avg TPS	3604.6 avg TPS
200ms		2561.8 avg TPS	3488.2 avg TPS

This shouldn't be a big problem though unless you don't have a very good tank, and I wouldn't recommend this build to any that doesn't A. Have any prior experience with DW DK DPS builds and B. Already have some pretty good DW DPS gear. Most likely if you have B covered, you'll have a good tank that will be able to hold threat.

Sekke · 04/07/09, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kithus

I think I've addressed this before but again. If 2h unholy isn't upgrading out of their T7.5 to keep set bonuses then DW will take an advantage in having a set bonus that works for them in 2pc8.5 and improved stats on 4 gear slots by using higher iLevel pieces.

That's fine but the reason I quoted you was because you were talking about generating more RP than 2H Unholy, which wouldn't be the case if Unholy keeps T7.

Kyruski · 04/07/09, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by Sekke

That's fine but the reason I quoted you was because you were talking about generating more RP than 2H Unholy, which wouldn't be the case if Unholy keeps T7.

Actually it would be the case. They would generate 30 RP with 4pT7.5 for FU Runes. For our FU runes, we generate 35 RP (40 with CotG). If they spend both of their Death Runes to do a SS, They generate 30 RP with 4pT7.5. We spend our Death Runes on IT, so each Death Rune alone generates 20 RP (25 with CotG) or 40 (50 CotG) together. I don't see how 2H Unholy would generate more RP...

Kithus · 04/08/09, 10:04 AM

Orlgin I apologize, Kyr is absolutely right. I forgot to resim 0/18/53 after Kahorie fixed the MH normalization problem in the sim. 0/18/53 is indeed simming about 100+ DPS higher than 10/10/51 right now.

That said Kyr I don't like your 0/17/54 build. It's almost identical to mine with a couple minor point changes. Only 1/3 WP, 5/5 Desecration (Just taking 1 point from WP for desecration nets me a very minor DPS increase). The second point you took out of WP needs to go into GF. It's a 20 DPS loss from my tests but the sim isn't using GF properly and the 20 DPS loss is more than made up for by the heal for the ghoul. If we're even talking about 5% more ghoul uptime due to GF then it's actually a gain.

0/17/54

Try to run that with your gear setup Kyr? I'm curious to see what you come up with for numbers.

Kyruski · 04/08/09, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Kithus

Orlgin I apologize, Kyr is absolutely right. I forgot to resim 0/18/53 after Kahorie fixed the MH normalization problem in the sim. 0/18/53 is indeed simming about 100+ DPS higher than 10/10/51 right now.

That said Kyr I don't like your 0/17/54 build. It's almost identical to mine with a couple minor point changes. Only 1/3 WP, 5/5 Desecration (Just taking 1 point from WP for desecration nets me a very minor DPS increase). The second point you took out of WP needs to go into GF. It's a 20 DPS loss from my tests but the sim isn't using GF properly and the 20 DPS loss is more than made up for by the heal for the ghoul. If we're even talking about 5% more ghoul uptime due to GF then it's actually a gain.

0/17/54

Try to run that with your gear setup Kyr? I'm curious to see what you come up with for numbers.

I did mention GF in my post, and I have been seeing a better DPS per point with WP in my tests. I don't know why that is but that is why I decide to max out WP instead of Desecration. I also said that if GF proves to be a DPS gain which I thought it would be, then point could be taken from Desecration or WP for it. I did try to sell Desecration and WP as "up to you" points. But right now, I must get ready for school, I should be back in about 5-6hours.

EDIT: I'm also guessing your Priority is something to the extent of DC>BloodPlague>FF>IT>GF>BS>PS? Because I'm going to test that once I get back from school.

Actually, I just quickly did your build to mine, and put GF on both. I tested it at 0ms which proved yours to be ahead but then at 250ms, mine pulled ahead. Have you been testing yours at 0ms? Because that will change a bit. WP will hit the same frequency but you'll hit less often theoretically with all your abilities.

Kithus · 04/08/09, 12:02 PM

My current priority is:

<BloodTap></BloodTap>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<IcyTouch></IcyTouch>
<PlagueStrike></PlagueStrike>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>

Ghoul Frenzy is not included in the priority sheet because, from what I've seen, that priority listing still isn't working properly in Kahorie's sim.

Edit: Just grabbed the latest version of the sim. With the new latency addition I've moved DC up just under the blood tap. 200ms latency is showing as an approximately 500 dps drop with the above priority sheet and only ~200 DPS drop with death coil moved.

Edit2: 5 Desecration/1 Wandering Plague and 3 Des/3 WP break even at approximately 100 ms in my current gear setup. It inches very slowly in the direction of 5 Des/1 WP as gear progresses. Overall I'll have to go with Kyr, wandering plague is better point-for-point. My Ulduar gear character sheet puts 5/1 very slightly ahead of 3/3 for 100 ms but all this does not take into account fights where we lose melee for a short period of time in which WP will still be working until diseases drop off.

Lollersk8er · 04/08/09, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Kithus

Edit: Just grabbed the latest version of the sim. With the new latency addition I've moved DC up just under the blood tap. 200ms latency is showing as an approximately 500 dps drop with the above priority sheet and only ~200 DPS drop with death coil moved.

That's no surprise. DW Unholy uses too many gcd's and the bottom skills rarely get used.

Kithus · 04/08/09, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lollersk8er

That's no surprise. DW Unholy uses too many gcd's and the bottom skills rarely get used.

Actually the build is surprisingly good at using all it's runes/RP. The problem is that with the 0/17/54 build there are time when you generate more runic power than you can hold if you are waiting until all runes are gone to dump it. With DC prioritized you never get much over 50 RP. Amusingly enough you could technically drop 2 points from RPM into toughness if you manage your RP properly without losing any DPS.

Kyruski · 04/08/09, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Kithus

Jibba Jabba

I only see a drop of ~200 DPS when I change from 0ms to 250ms. For both, I used the following Priority:

<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<IcyTouch></IcyTouch>
<GhoulFrenzy></GhoulFrenzy>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<PlagueStrike></PlagueStrike>

My reasoning for this rotation is first, We want to use DC as much as possible. Second, You want your diseases up. You can switch the Priority of DC and Diseases, this is up to you. Now why I put IT next is because it's higher damage than the other skills but mainly for the RP it generates. Also if there are Death Runes up, it will use the Death Runes for IT instead of Blood Strike or anything else. Then I put GF next just as a personal preference. I'd like it to be up as much as possible, and I put it as a higher priority than PS so it won't use PS instead of GF when GF needs to be refreshed. Then I put BS next since it generates a Death Rune. I have BS a higher priority than PS because PS+PS generates 30 RP but BS+IT generates 35 RP. You can switch the spots of BS and GF if you wish, it's just a personal preference. And finally, PS is the lowest priority because it has okay damage and okay RP, but I feel the others are more important. If you have any further questions about priority/rotation, don't hesitate to ask.

Now about the RP Generation and RP cap you're talking about. Personally on live, I'd probably do 3 Runes and then RP dump then another 3 Runes then RP Dump. You should still get all of the Runes used and you shouldn't ever run over. Here's a reason why. Let's say you have 39 RP, 1 RP short of a DC, after you finish your dump. You move on to your next 3 Runes before another Dump. Let's say these 3 Runes are a combo of Frost and Death Runes. So you IT 3 times, gaining 75 RP total. This puts you at 114 RP. If you didn't have RPM 1/2 or 2/2, You would have just lost 14 RP. Now with 1/2 RPM, you'll have 114/115 RP, 2/2 RPM is 114/130 RP. This is why I would prefer a 3 Rune Rotation, It just isn't possible to go over the RP Cap if you have a least 1/2 RPM.

You also forget that having 2/2 RPM makes it easier having a Gargoyle out. Now while I was typing that, I just thought of something. Our main nuke uses RP. We have to watch our RP consumption for Gargoyle. My first concern which isn't too big is A. How hard will it be to watch our RP so we don't kill our Gargoyle and my second concern which is a little more important is B. Could we potentially do better without the Gargoyle by just spamming DC. So I just quickly ran a Sim with Gargoyle and one without Gargoyle. The results? ~4.9k with the Gargoyle's talent point put into Desecration, and ~5.25k with Gargoyle. So Gargoyle is a DPS boost. Just make sure you're careful when using DC while it's up.

Kithus · 04/08/09, 5:02 PM

We already have to dance around gargoyle RP consumption on live with DCs to maximize our DPS. It's just going to be a bit more important with DC being our main nuke. The comment about dropping 2 points into toughness was mostly in jest, hence the "technically could." If you perfectly manage your RP then it's not a DPS loss but the buffer RPM provides for less than perfect RP management is golden. Personally my plan is to just drop DC every time I hit 40 RP unless gargoyle is up.

You probably want to take Ghoul Frenzy out of your rotation for right now. It's contaminating your results because we have both seen that the sim is not working properly with it. I will have to try dropping BS under PS though, you make a good argument for it.

Also if you aren't using blood tap for GF try adding it top priority in your rotation. It doesn't cost a GCD, gives 10 RP and gives you an extra 2 ITs in place of 2 BSs over the next 20 seconds. Technically on live I'd pop it after both blood runes were on cooldown as blood runes but there's no way to make the sim do that.

Kithus · 04/09/09, 12:02 AM

With the latest updates to Kahories sim:

1. Unholy Blight still sims as a slight DPS loss taking my single point in Wandering Plague for it. This is assuming the Sigil of the Vengeful Heart.

2. Ghoul Frenzy sims as a large DPS increase, ~80 DPS for me.

3. 3/5 Desecration and 3/3 Wandering plague is simming at almost exactly the same DPS at 250 MS as 5/5 desecration 1/3 wandering plague and slightly worse at lower levels of latency. My best guess is that this is a result of my picking up the helm from malygos and increasing my total expertise to very near the cap.

4. FC/FC is simming slightly higher than FC/RI. Since the sim gives RI the unfair advantage of assuming it's always up we might be moving away from RI on the offhand. For completeness sake, cinderglacier is still bad.

whatthecrap · 04/09/09, 6:26 AM

I've read through most of the last couple pages, and haven't seen anything about it. However, if I've missed anything about it, I do apologize as it is very early and I could possibly have missed it.

Has anyone taken into account the abundance of Armor Pen. in Ulduar. Is there a way to efficiently calculate the effectiveness of Armor Pen. on DW specs? And if there are viable reasons to stack Armor Pen., what rating should we try to reach?

Currently my melee attacks account for a good amount of damage as a 0/32/39 DW DK. Would Armor Pen. make enough of a difference to be viable? Armor Pen. would also increase the damage done by Necrosis, though not in any revolutionary way.

Just a thought.